Dele Alli

[Finney Is Back]

Fair point so maybe my phrasing was clumsy. I mean he doesn't influence the play enough. Playing in what Gary Neville calls "moments" is not enough for a player playing in a midfield three. They need to do more to influence the general play. If your midfield is not controlling a game, you aren't controlling a game. Your midfield can't do that if you've got one of them who you only expect to play in moments.

I'm not having a pop at Dele for the sake of it. I've been encouraged by his last two games because he's headed in the right direction. His work rate has been oustanding. But there is still a problem that he's not really shown enough in his time here to play in a three man midfield and the role where he's prospered most is no longer there. He needs to develop his game because if he's in a 3 man midfield playing like he currently is, we won't challenge for top 4 and we'll be struggling for top 6.

I think he has had more influence than both Skipp and Hojbjeg in the two PL games…. I’m not sure the ‘problem’ in our midfield has been the player who has been the best of three…

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think he has had more influence than both Skipp and Hojbjeg in the two PL games…. I’m not sure the ‘problem’ in our midfield has been the player who has been the best of three…

Think it’s more that people are getting carried away with Alli’s performances. He hasn’t consistently performed for years so it’s understandable that people want to see a bit more from him on a consistent basis before claiming he’s back and that he’s made changes to his game.

 

[RunTMC]

Fair point so maybe my phrasing was clumsy. I mean he doesn't influence the play enough. Playing in what Gary Neville calls "moments" is not enough for a player playing in a midfield three. They need to do more to influence the general play. If your midfield is not controlling a game, you aren't controlling a game. Your midfield can't do that if you've got one of them who you only expect to play in moments.

I'm not having a pop at Dele for the sake of it. I've been encouraged by his last two games because he's headed in the right direction. His work rate has been oustanding. But there is still a problem that he's not really shown enough in his time here to play in a three man midfield and the role where he's prospered most is no longer there. He needs to develop his game because if he's in a 3 man midfield playing like he currently is, we won't challenge for top 4 and we'll be struggling for top 6.

Ok, so it sounds to me that you would rather Alli not be box to box but instead get on the ball, keep possession, control the tempo and create for others to score the goals. In that scenario would you expect one of those others to be one of the midfielders or not? I worry we will lack goals from midfield and i believe that Nuno has specifically commented on him seeing Dele as a box to box player.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Ok, so it sounds to me that you would rather Alli not be box to box but instead get on the ball, keep possession, control the tempo and create for others to score the goals. In that scenario would you expect one of those others to be one of the midfielders or not? I worry we will lack goals from midfield and i believe that Nuno has specifically commented on him seeing Dele as a box to box player.

It’s all about a balance in midfield
Dele is offering the work rate needed and also the defensive side from him has been very impressive
We need at least one player sitting
And then I’d add a creative player who will work hard too
I see dele doing the wilnaldum role that he did at pool

 

[glasgowspur]

He scored a goal at the weekend that he won the penalty for
That is influencing the game literally

He also made some very good tackles and blocks.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He also made some very good tackles and blocks.

The block he made with skipp was great
Effort and work rate combined with commitment works wonders

 

[RunTMC]

Think it’s more that people are getting carried away with Alli’s performances. He hasn’t consistently performed for years so it’s understandable that people want to see a bit more from him on a consistent basis before claiming he’s back and that he’s made changes to his game.

Whilst this is true, I think it's a little bit more than that. What people are saying is that if he continues to perform like this for the rest of the season that wouldn't be good enough for where we want to be

 

[billyiddo]

He scored a goal at the weekend that he won the penalty for
That is influencing the game literally

By the sounds of it he could have had 2 others, a goalscoring box to box player is an asset and Dele has the capabilities to be one

 

[lurker of old]

What people are saying is that if he continues to perform like this for the rest of the season that wouldn't be good enough for where we want to be
Given what is in our coffers currently, we may have to modify our expectations of "where we want to be". Top 6 would be an improvement for a start, and a box to box Dele could be a vital part of that.

 

[DeanoAustin]

By the sounds of it he could have had 2 others, a goalscoring box to box player is an asset and Dele has the capabilities to be one

He needs to do more, he can't just be that player in a midfield 3. Had we not won the last two games, he'd be getting pelters on here. Just look at the Emirates Marketing Project thread first half - IIRC a lot of people were calling for Dele to be hooked. I think people's opinions are being coloured by the results in the two games rather than the actual performances.

 

[Bishop]

My understanding of the modern 433 is the emphasis on the middle 3 is more on hard work and closing the space the front 3 leave behind - think of Liverpools middle 3, not exactly bursting with creativity

That's just Liverpool's interpretation which is aligned to them having 3 creative forwards, 2 of whom are very comfortable playing from the wider positions. We don't yet have the luxury of this.

We have Kane and Son who can form part of the 3 but lack the 3rd player comfortable out wide, capable of beating a man, creating and scoring. Even Son is iffy in they creativity part but his sheer randomness does make up for it.

I don't think our current forwards are close to fitting the Liverpool mould at all.

 

[RunTMC]

What people are saying is that if he continues to perform like this for the rest of the season that wouldn't be good enough for where we want to be
Given what is in our coffers currently, we may have to modify our expectations of "where we want to be". Top 6 would be an improvement for a start, and a box to box Dele could be a vital part of that.

I agree. Whilst we would like top 4 that's not a realistic goal for this year. We're in the middle of a rebuild and top 6 is achievable. Dele's been great so far and what i really like is that he's getting into goal scoring positions regularly this season (including pre-season) and it's just a matter of time before the goals follow

 

[Lemonade Money]

He needs to do more, he can't just be that player in a midfield 3. Had we not won the last two games, he'd be getting pelters on here. Just look at the Emirates Marketing Project thread first half - IIRC a lot of people were calling for Dele to be hooked. I think people's opinions are being coloured by the results in the two games rather than the actual performances.

But your opinion is being coloured by an OMT?

 

[Finney Is Back]

He needs to do more, he can't just be that player in a midfield 3. Had we not won the last two games, he'd be getting pelters on here. Just look at the Emirates Marketing Project thread first half - IIRC a lot of people were calling for Dele to be hooked. I think people's opinions are being coloured by the results in the two games rather than the actual performances.

He would be getting pelters on here from those that have little idea about football…. I’m sure those that matter (Nuno and the coaches) would’ve been happy with his contribution.

 

[parklane1]

That still won't cut it for me. If Dele wants to play in a midfield 3 and we want to control games, he has to be more creative and do more on the ball. Having him as a runner, PEH as a holder and A/N Other as a creative passer won't cut it. You need more than that in a midfield. Dele needs to develop his game.

This is pretty much where i stand on him at the moment, he had his best game for a while against Wolves but as it stands we need more from our midfield players. I can see Skipp developing into a very good player, Hojberg is a must for me because he offer far more then the other two, that leaves Alli and as i say i thought he did well but it does not really work well. I really hope he proves me wrong but at the moment i have the feeling he is being pushed into the side on the hope that he improves rather then a important part of our side. I guess time will tell.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Can we talk about more pressing matters with Alli ie his hair? What the hell is up with the porn star goatee as well

 

[metalgear]

he's done better but lets be honest our midfield was a mess dealing with wolves.
we can't retain the ball in midfield comfortably and we will be punished for it soon enough.

its not just Dele of course, but we know what he is capable of.

is it too much to ask for a midfield that can control the game and creatively supply the forwards in a systematic way aside from punting or solo-dribbling to the forwards? Dele has the tools to play a large part in that.

 

[braineclipse]

That's just Liverpool's interpretation which is aligned to them having 3 creative forwards, 2 of whom are very comfortable playing from the wider positions. We don't yet have the luxury of this.

We have Kane and Son who can form part of the 3 but lack the 3rd player comfortable out wide, capable of beating a man, creating and scoring. Even Son is iffy in they creativity part but his sheer randomness does make up for it.

I don't think our current forwards are close to fitting the Liverpool mould at all.

Liverpool have 4 options for starting attackers that all are fairly or very creative. They also have two of the most creative full backs around who also have real quality end product. They also have real ball playing quality at centre back and a goalkeeper that's very good with his feet. We're nowhere close in just about any of those areas really.

And they still signed Thiago to bring a more ball playing quality option in central midfield.

We have very different needs from our central midfielders.

 

[papaspur]

he's done better but lets be honest our midfield was a mess dealing with wolves.
we can't retain the ball in midfield comfortably and we will be punished for it soon enough.

its not just Dele of course, but we know what he is capable of.

is it too much to ask for a midfield that can control the game and creatively supply the forwards in a systematic way aside from punting or solo-dribbling to the forwards? Dele has the tools to play a large part in that.

Because the midfield discussion seems to be happening in Dele's thread (instead of Skipp's or PEH's), I just want to clarify what I think the "debate" is all about. I don't think Deano is having a pop at Dele, just seems that others are being a bit over-defensive in their reaction to any criticism Dele is getting.
Personally, I think Dele has been doing fine so far. IMO, the bigger culprit against Wolves was Skipp. The quality of Skipp's passing was sub-par at times and we ended up giving away possession a bit too cheaply. Not to put all the blame on the midfield three, we did look a bit better when Kane replaced Son and we had some way to retain possession a bit further up the pitch (instead of trying to force a counter-attacking play while not in a counter-attack).

With that said, I agree with metalgear that we need at least one maestro to conduct the game on the pitch. I felt there were times when we needed to slow the game down against Wolves but instead, we were trying to force dogbrick-tier passes up to our forwards that would immediately get intercepted. I'm not sure that role belongs to Dele, maybe he'll look better with such a player next to him. PEH was dropping so deep when we had possession, basically like a third CB at times. Our actual CBs couldn't recycle the ball well enough so I think that contributed to some problems in our midfield. Skipp turns 21 in less than a month so he's still young and learning.

Dele worked hard, just needs to work on his pass accuracy and not getting dispossessed so often.

 

[thfcsteff]

That's a hell of a call to make Steff based on one game. Any time I've seen him in centre mid before, he hasn't gotten on the ball and influenced the game enough. Against City, for all his industry which was a big positive, he also didn't influence the game enough. If you're telling me that in the space of a week, he's developed his game in such a way that he's now the type of CM that would challenge for a place in City/United/Liverpool/Chelsea midfield and basing that on a game where everyone on this board watching the game said we struggled to control the game and the highlights showed the same, I think you're looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

Most of us want Dele to kick on with us. I really do because I like him, think he has bags of potential and really believe he loves our club. But we have to be honest as well and not get carried away with a couple of decent performances.

But mate...he is not playing as an orthodox CM in a pair. If he was part of a 4 next To PEH or Skipp that'd be different, but he clearly is not operating like that and neither are we.
He has progressed his game to the point where he can be effective in a 3 playing deeper whereas previously he was simply a 10.

Disagree re:rose tinted glasses. It is all about where he is actually playing/his tasks versus the job people think he should be doing and the player he was. Nobody has ever looked to Dele to Eriksen, not ever. And everyone I know who has watched the first two games is clear that we will need a passer/retainer/carrier against most teams. But if if is in a 3 it will be to replace one of Skippy or PEH.