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Dele Alli

Bishop said:
Our midfield which he was a part of got completely out played. We won the game because Wolves don't know how to create quality chances and the few they did they didn't know how to finish. We did not win because our midfield controlled the game or even put up much resistance.

Wolves have a particularly good modified so they may not be a good barometer but if that performance is an indicator of how's thi GS will go this season then it really isn't good enough and Dele was part of that.
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I must admit that I share many of your misgivings... If I must be honest, Dele looks to be the only square peg in the team. Having said that he is an extremely intelligent player and I think he deserves a few games to see if he can modify his game to fit into Nuno's plan and tactics.
 
thfcsteff said:
It is why I think we will see one of Hojberg or Skipp soon enough...
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Perhaps. Or both and not Alli. Good to have different options, Alli is certainly putting himself in contention and that can only be a good thing.
Raziel said:
He worked his ass off, did good defensive work and did still put himself into good areas (see penalty)

The issue is the same as it was 5 pages back on this thread, with full 11, where does he play?

Kane comes back in, and we are looking for a winger for all intents, lots of rumours about Nuno wanting two up top and Son to play more centrally.

I think we go more 4-4-2, Kane and Son up front, two wide men (Bergwijn/Gil on one side, Lucas/whoever on other) and then you have PEH, Skipp, Lo Celso, Dele and likely one incoming or Ndombele fighting for the remaining two spots.
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In a system like that I could see him work on the left, wouldn't be THAT different to the role he plays currently.

I find it somewhat harder to see a good central partnership in a 4-4-2 including him with our current squad.
 
We really can't judge anytor anyone at the moment.
Until we know what is happening with Kane and tanguy its pointless as its unlikely this will be how we line up.
Lets wait until the window closes, we see who is here and who isn't, the squad is fit and had more time on the training ground.
Let's take the positive that the players seem to be buying into nuno and working their behinds off, even if it's not in their preferred position or role.
 
thfcsteff said:
Come on Deano, you even admitted you didn’t see the whole game! You say he has to ‘develop’ his game? That is precisely what he has done.
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That's a hell of a call to make Steff based on one game. Any time I've seen him in centre mid before, he hasn't gotten on the ball and influenced the game enough. Against City, for all his industry which was a big positive, he also didn't influence the game enough. If you're telling me that in the space of a week, he's developed his game in such a way that he's now the type of CM that would challenge for a place in City/United/Liverpool/Chelsea midfield and basing that on a game where everyone on this board watching the game said we struggled to control the game and the highlights showed the same, I think you're looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

Most of us want Dele to kick on with us. I really do because I like him, think he has bags of potential and really believe he loves our club. But we have to be honest as well and not get carried away with a couple of decent performances.
 
Bishop said:
Our midfield which he was a part of got completely out played. We won the game because Wolves don't know how to create quality chances and the few they did they didn't know how to finish. We did not win because our midfield controlled the game or even put up much resistance.

Wolves have a particularly good modified so they may not be a good barometer but if that performance is an indicator of how's thi GS will go this season then it really isn't good enough and Dele was part of that.
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I would strongly agree with all of that bar the first part of your last sentence although I know you're trying to add some balance.

If we think that Wolves have a midfield we can't compete with, we're at nothing. Yes they are good, they're nice on the ball but it's Wolves. If we're accepting their midfield should outclass ours then we're at nothing and we'll finish 6th - 8th if we're lucky.

I know we are early days with Nuno, he has a lot to deal with and we have 6 points from 6 so we can't judge too harshly. But we also can't be overly optimistic because if we continue to play as we are, results will catch up on us. Hopefully, we'll improve over the next few weeks and months.
 
DeanoAustin said:
That still won't cut it for me. If Dele wants to play in a midfield 3 and we want to control games, he has to be more creative and do more on the ball. Having him as a runner, PEH as a holder and A/N Other as a creative passer won't cut it. You need more than that in a midfield. Dele needs to develop his game.
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If we play 433 we are going to need goals from midfield. Last season Skipp played 45 league matches and scored just one goal while Holjbjerg scored 2 goals in 40 league appearances.

Last season Dele was effectively alienated from the team but prior to that he is a player that scored 13 goals in 50 league matches over 2 seasons and that was described as poor. I question whether we can afford to carry 2 non goal scoring central midfielders long term when you consider that neither Bergwijn or Moura return decent scoring numbers in the league.
 
NaijaSpurs said:
If we play 433 we are going to need goals from midfield. Last season Skipp played 45 league matches and scored just one goal while Holjbjerg scored 2 goals in 40 league appearances.

Last season Dele was effectively alienated from the team but prior to that he is a player that scored 13 goals in 50 league matches over 2 seasons and that was described as poor. I question whether we can afford to carry 2 non goal scoring central midfielders long term when you consider that neither Bergwijn or Moura return decent scoring numbers in the league.
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And that is an excellent point. It looks like one of our current three is suited to this system if even that. And if we have a 3 man midfield where only one player is suited to it, we're in for a season of chasing the ball.

NaijaSpurs said:
And yet it was a three man midfield but for some reason Dele seems to be the only one getting all the blame
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I'm certainly not blaming Dele for anything. I simply believe that some people, on here and in the media, are getting carried away with a couple of decent performances from him. This lad has a high ceiling, the last two weeks from him have been good but he can still get better.
 
billyiddo said:
My understanding of the modern 433 is the emphasis on the middle 3 is more on hard work and closing the space the front 3 leave behind - think of Liverpools middle 3, not exactly bursting with creativity
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And that's a fair argument. There's a massive difference between how we're playing and how Liverpool play though. I'd also argue that lads like Fabinho and Thiago influence a game far more than Dele has ever done from CM. Not saying Dele can't get there but I just haven't seen it from him yet.
 
Think it too soon, and also not the right match, to be too critical of Dele. For much of the game we had no one up front holding the ball up so it was almost all on the backfoot play from our midfield, no second balls or knock downs to run on to, no one to run past, very little to be creative with. Just look at the pass maps posted yesterday, we were 15+ yards deeper per man than in the City game and that isn't all down to one guy.

Dele needs to impose himself more, true, but there again PEH got into the Euros Team of the Competition 3 months ago by playing slightly further up the field and providing 3 assists in 5 games so perhaps he needs to be doing more than providing a (formidable) screen. And Skipp is learning on the job that there is big step up between EFL and EPL.

Dele can't be faulted for his attitude or endeavour so far this season. I'm not sure any of the players could be said to have found their full on groove yet.
 
DeanoAustin said:
And that's a fair argument. There's a massive difference between how we're playing and how Liverpool play though. I'd also argue that lads like Fabinho and Thiago influence a game far more than Dele has ever done from CM. Not saying Dele can't get there but I just haven't seen it from him yet.
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Why should the onus be on Dele to provide creativity - it seems his role is defined as a box to box player in Nunos midfield, I'd say Skipp is most likely filling in at this stage in Ndombeles absence and will make way once he returns or is replaced - that then gives us a good blend of industry and creativity through the middle.
 
billyiddo said:
Why should the onus be on Dele to provide creativity - it seems his role is defined as a box to box player in Nunos midfield, I'd say Skipp is most likely filling in at this stage in Ndombeles absence and will make way once he returns or is replaced - that then gives us a good blend of industry and creativity through the middle.
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Doesn't just have to be creativity. But, for me, anyone playing in midfield, particularly a three man midfield has to influence or dictate a game. If your midfield aren't doing it, you're dead. The onus is on all three. I think Hojbjerg can do it - he breaks up play, works his nuts off and passes well enough to maintain possession without being Michael Carrick or Glenn Hoddle. Skipp is similar although I haven't seen a lot of him - maybe that similarity will limit his game time. Dele, for me, doesn't influence the game enough right now to be in a three man midfield but he is working at it.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Doesn't just have to be creativity. But, for me, anyone playing in midfield, particularly a three man midfield has to influence or dictate a game. If your midfield aren't doing it, you're dead. The onus is on all three. I think Hojbjerg can do it - he breaks up play, works his nuts off and passes well enough to maintain possession without being Michael Carrick or Glenn Hoddle. Skipp is similar although I haven't seen a lot of him - maybe that similarity will limit his game time. Dele, for me, doesn't influence the game enough right now to be in a three man midfield but he is working at it.
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He scored a goal at the weekend that he won the penalty for
That is influencing the game literally
 
Bedfordspurs said:
He scored a goal at the weekend that he won the penalty for
That is influencing the game literally
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Fair point so maybe my phrasing was clumsy. I mean he doesn't influence the play enough. Playing in what Gary Neville calls "moments" is not enough for a player playing in a midfield three. They need to do more to influence the general play. If your midfield is not controlling a game, you aren't controlling a game. Your midfield can't do that if you've got one of them who you only expect to play in moments.

I'm not having a pop at Dele for the sake of it. I've been encouraged by his last two games because he's headed in the right direction. His work rate has been oustanding. But there is still a problem that he's not really shown enough in his time here to play in a three man midfield and the role where he's prospered most is no longer there. He needs to develop his game because if he's in a 3 man midfield playing like he currently is, we won't challenge for top 4 and we'll be struggling for top 6.
 
DeanoAustin said:
Doesn't just have to be creativity. But, for me, anyone playing in midfield, particularly a three man midfield has to influence or dictate a game. If your midfield aren't doing it, you're dead. The onus is on all three. I think Hojbjerg can do it - he breaks up play, works his nuts off and passes well enough to maintain possession without being Michael Carrick or Glenn Hoddle. Skipp is similar although I haven't seen a lot of him - maybe that similarity will limit his game time. Dele, for me, doesn't influence the game enough right now to be in a three man midfield but he is working at it.
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If (and it’s a big IF) Nuno wants to change the midfield 3 to get more control of the game then I think it would be Skipp who would be replaced before Dele. Skipp isn’t doing anything that Dele isn’t doing and Dele is contributing more in an attacking sense. In fact I think even Hojbjeg would probably make way before Dele on the evidence of the first 2 PL games of the season.
 
billyiddo said:
My understanding of the modern 433 is the emphasis on the middle 3 is more on hard work and closing the space the front 3 leave behind - think of Liverpools middle 3, not exactly bursting with creativity
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Liverpool’s midfield was the weakest part of their team during their peak no doubt but they had arguably the two most creative full backs in the league to compensate for that plus Salah who is a prick but is also creative. We’re not bursting with creativity at the moment in midfield or attack. I’d say Son is the most creative player we have right now if you exclude Kane.
 
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