Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
I think he's just jealous as he has to pull his own pants down.
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Daniel Levy - Chairman
- Thread starter Howard Webb
- Start date
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
For a play thing
I think I was probably feeling like fan expectations were raised by the whole Poch period, the amount we made from the CL final and the fact this stadium was what we needed to apparently compete.
Except when I see this as a fan, I wonder where the money has gone, and why DL paid himself massive fudging bonuses at a time we’re reinvesting the lowest amount of any club. 5% is pathetic.
What does that say about the players he was “offered” then?
If you think that’s happening again anytime soon on current trajectory, you will need to live with it.
PS - we lost. great times eh.
Tldr???
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
I don’t really get that 5% figure TBH or what it’s based on
What we do know is that when we opened the stadium it coincided with the season we spent the most we ever have
I also fully expected it to be the same this summer however the worlds changed quite a bit in quite a short period
parklane1
Vic Buckingham
That chart suggests spending bears little relationship to League position. Ergo Levy's doing a great job!
The vast majority of fans think so as well, there are always some who will look for fault in everything. Its what they do.
Spur of the moment
Frederic Kanoute
glasgowspur
Dimitar Berbatov
Three quality players there, and IMHO on technical ability could have walked into any team in Europe.
The fact they didn't tells a story, none of them had what it takes to be a winner.
Hurts me to say that about them, Jan in particular, but I think it's true. They are all spurs, Everton, almost but not quite good enough level of player.
I don’t talk to Gooners.
People don't understand "8th most valuable club" does not equal to "cash flow available"
We went from making a profit, and likely looking to invest that profit in the squad to Covid related losses probably in the range of 100-150M this year.That lost could be countered if we knew that life as normal would return in 1 month, 3 months, whatever, but we literally have no idea. So the club is reducing risk, keeping the costs under control until we understand the timelines ..
But Levy is just a tight basterd hording the Spurs gold like a dragon .. fudge me ..
Prediction, we will see several clubs in financial crisis in the next 12 months, Valencia is just the start ..
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
I said the 8th largest turnover thing didn’t mean anything at the time
Profit is key and we would have made plenty before COVID - now it’s a different kettle of fish
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
@Raziel - you called?
Interesting. I wasn't aware that only Qataris, Saudis or Russians could become football club owners.
Were FSG slavers or murderers, pray tell? Or were they just far better owners than the Cheap and Cheaper duo on our end?
Certainly, they're no worse than tax cheat (and tax exile) Joe Lewis, who made his money shorting the pound on Black Wednesday.
It's all relative up at the top, but in terms of competence and being ambitious, neither trait requires that you be a bloody-handed Sheikh. Just better than the definitely morally-ambiguous Joe Lewis. Lots of amoral rich blokes who fit that description.
A low interest loan that the club will have to pay back with its own money, having historically committed to ambitionlessly frugal low/no net spending for a long time amidst a financial bonanza in the Premier League, at a time of relatively accessible ,easy credit? I'd wager we probably got it on the market, same way we got the government loan - by being a tightwad of a club.
True, which is why they're barely competent, tight-fisted stewards as opposed to outright destructive bastards.
They don't take money out of the club. The club makes massive amounts of money just by being in the Premier League every year - lord knows, we've underperformed on the commercial side of things, so outrageously high ticket prices and broadcast revenue is how we make our money. Now, they don't take it out, and they certainly don't spend on the team - so where else was it going to go?
There was no investment from them. None. It was all our money, they they reinvested into the one project that didn't involve buying players and competing for trophies.
I don't. I fully expect we'll be pathetic tightwads this year, same as every year for 19-odd seasons - it's just now Levy really has a good excuse he can stretch out for as long as he needs to avoid spending. I'll bet that, 5 years from now when other clubs have spent 500m on players, we'll still be pleading poverty as a result of COVID-19. That's depressing, behaving like a posh League 2 side in the market.
They didn't turn up, definitely. But I'm struck by the FA Cup semi in 2017 when we threw on two wasters in Janssen and Nkoudou (I think) while Chelsea threw on Fabregas, Hazard and some other star - how much did underinvestment play its role in terminally limiting us during all those years?
Right. And now, COVID-19 provides him with the excuse he's always wanted - and will do for long after other teams have grown shame-faced enough to avoid using it.
For now, true. But things change - how many years did Saudi Sportswashing Machine fans have to yell about Ashley? He still hasn't f*cked off, mind, but at least no one thinks he's been good for Saudi Sportswashing Machine any longer, and one way or another, he's closer to f*cking off now.
This is the saddest thing I think I've read here, football-wise. Absolutely not your fault, and it's not just you by any means, but I will hate ENIC for a very long time because of how thoroughly they destroyed any semblance of our ambitions of winning things. We were a big club, once - we genuinely had the fourth-best trophy record in England, were once the club with the most FA Cups of any English club, were the first club to win the double in the 20th century, the first English club to win a European trophy...
...we were a different club once, before these fudging mediocre, penny-pinching tightwads arrived and gave us one League Cup in 20 years.
You saw us win 8 trophies. I saw us win one, in 20 years - that League Cup. And, apart from that, we've had 20 years of being zoomed past by any and every club around us.
I'm long past the point of having had enough of these pointlessly mediocre fudgers, and for the most part I'm just sadly resigned to them hanging around for the near future like a bad stench. But every time I see a fan of ours give up on winning things because 20 years of ENIC have destroyed our hopes, my anger for them grows anew.
Interesting. I wasn't aware that only Qataris, Saudis or Russians could become football club owners.
Were FSG slavers or murderers, pray tell? Or were they just far better owners than the Cheap and Cheaper duo on our end?
Certainly, they're no worse than tax cheat (and tax exile) Joe Lewis, who made his money shorting the pound on Black Wednesday.
It's all relative up at the top, but in terms of competence and being ambitious, neither trait requires that you be a bloody-handed Sheikh. Just better than the definitely morally-ambiguous Joe Lewis. Lots of amoral rich blokes who fit that description.
A low interest loan that the club will have to pay back with its own money, having historically committed to ambitionlessly frugal low/no net spending for a long time amidst a financial bonanza in the Premier League, at a time of relatively accessible ,easy credit? I'd wager we probably got it on the market, same way we got the government loan - by being a tightwad of a club.
True, which is why they're barely competent, tight-fisted stewards as opposed to outright destructive bastards.
They don't take money out of the club. The club makes massive amounts of money just by being in the Premier League every year - lord knows, we've underperformed on the commercial side of things, so outrageously high ticket prices and broadcast revenue is how we make our money. Now, they don't take it out, and they certainly don't spend on the team - so where else was it going to go?
There was no investment from them. None. It was all our money, they they reinvested into the one project that didn't involve buying players and competing for trophies.
I don't. I fully expect we'll be pathetic tightwads this year, same as every year for 19-odd seasons - it's just now Levy really has a good excuse he can stretch out for as long as he needs to avoid spending. I'll bet that, 5 years from now when other clubs have spent 500m on players, we'll still be pleading poverty as a result of COVID-19. That's depressing, behaving like a posh League 2 side in the market.
They didn't turn up, definitely. But I'm struck by the FA Cup semi in 2017 when we threw on two wasters in Janssen and Nkoudou (I think) while Chelsea threw on Fabregas, Hazard and some other star - how much did underinvestment play its role in terminally limiting us during all those years?
Right. And now, COVID-19 provides him with the excuse he's always wanted - and will do for long after other teams have grown shame-faced enough to avoid using it.
For now, true. But things change - how many years did Saudi Sportswashing Machine fans have to yell about Ashley? He still hasn't f*cked off, mind, but at least no one thinks he's been good for Saudi Sportswashing Machine any longer, and one way or another, he's closer to f*cking off now.
This is the saddest thing I think I've read here, football-wise. Absolutely not your fault, and it's not just you by any means, but I will hate ENIC for a very long time because of how thoroughly they destroyed any semblance of our ambitions of winning things. We were a big club, once - we genuinely had the fourth-best trophy record in England, were once the club with the most FA Cups of any English club, were the first club to win the double in the 20th century, the first English club to win a European trophy...
...we were a different club once, before these fudging mediocre, penny-pinching tightwads arrived and gave us one League Cup in 20 years.
You saw us win 8 trophies. I saw us win one, in 20 years - that League Cup. And, apart from that, we've had 20 years of being zoomed past by any and every club around us.
I'm long past the point of having had enough of these pointlessly mediocre fudgers, and for the most part I'm just sadly resigned to them hanging around for the near future like a bad stench. But every time I see a fan of ours give up on winning things because 20 years of ENIC have destroyed our hopes, my anger for them grows anew.
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@DubaiSpur love the conversation as always mate .. long response, so I'll try to answer
. No, not only Russians or Arabs can invest, but realistically there are two types of clubs spending money in the way that some fans want, 1. Russians/Arabs (Chelsea, City, PSG), 2. Clubs that historically have a huge fanbase and revenue associated, and the owners often push that club into huge debt, fiscally unstable positions (Pool, United and Barca in last decade have taken on crazy debt, they have managed to survive that, but risk was there). We do not belong in category 2, so I think my point still stands
- Yes the club will pay back it's loans with "our money" if you like, but you are minimizing what it takes to pull off large scale financing (United had horrible interest rates for the first years of their loan, and yes part was market timing, but part is Spurs was better at it)
- The club doesn't make massive amount of money historically mate, the fact that we have in last few is based on the well run financial approach that has allowed us to catch up with everyone bar United and Pool (they are in a different category re fanbase), again none of that money has been taken out the club, it has just been redirected to the 1B project that we needed.
But to a more rounded conversation
- I think you are being a bit cheeky comparing Levy to Ashley mate
- The disagreement you and I have fundamentally comes down to this
In the past, we both agree Levy/ENIC/Joe could have taken a risk, been a bit more "speculative" if you like, but hindsight is always just that. I see why it would have made sense, but I also see why the decisions were made the way they were
It's the future, you remain convinced that when normality resumes and Spurs earns the 3rd highest revenue (and profit), we will still not invest, ok .. I hope not, but neither of us know .. so it's a wait and see (story of Spurs it seems)
I'm also not sure what club you remember, I remember Sugar (hint, it was a fudging disaster), I remember the early 80's side, yes we won stuff, but we badly underachieved, that side should have won way more, I remember Jurgen (that Spurs fans worship) using us twice and fudging off the minute we rehabilitated his brand ..
And to the very last point, ENIC didn't destroy Spurs chances, the FA (FFP being a joke) allowing brick like Chelsea and City plus Europe having PSG destroyed chances for most clubs. You think Liverpool/United compete if City goes and gets Messi plus two other players this transfer? the modern game is fudged .. (the occasional Leicester/Pompey fluke aside), we could do like the Scum and give up on everything but focus on a domestic cup?
. No, not only Russians or Arabs can invest, but realistically there are two types of clubs spending money in the way that some fans want, 1. Russians/Arabs (Chelsea, City, PSG), 2. Clubs that historically have a huge fanbase and revenue associated, and the owners often push that club into huge debt, fiscally unstable positions (Pool, United and Barca in last decade have taken on crazy debt, they have managed to survive that, but risk was there). We do not belong in category 2, so I think my point still stands
- Yes the club will pay back it's loans with "our money" if you like, but you are minimizing what it takes to pull off large scale financing (United had horrible interest rates for the first years of their loan, and yes part was market timing, but part is Spurs was better at it)
- The club doesn't make massive amount of money historically mate, the fact that we have in last few is based on the well run financial approach that has allowed us to catch up with everyone bar United and Pool (they are in a different category re fanbase), again none of that money has been taken out the club, it has just been redirected to the 1B project that we needed.
But to a more rounded conversation
- I think you are being a bit cheeky comparing Levy to Ashley mate
- The disagreement you and I have fundamentally comes down to this
In the past, we both agree Levy/ENIC/Joe could have taken a risk, been a bit more "speculative" if you like, but hindsight is always just that. I see why it would have made sense, but I also see why the decisions were made the way they were
It's the future, you remain convinced that when normality resumes and Spurs earns the 3rd highest revenue (and profit), we will still not invest, ok .. I hope not, but neither of us know .. so it's a wait and see (story of Spurs it seems)
I'm also not sure what club you remember, I remember Sugar (hint, it was a fudging disaster), I remember the early 80's side, yes we won stuff, but we badly underachieved, that side should have won way more, I remember Jurgen (that Spurs fans worship) using us twice and fudging off the minute we rehabilitated his brand ..
And to the very last point, ENIC didn't destroy Spurs chances, the FA (FFP being a joke) allowing brick like Chelsea and City plus Europe having PSG destroyed chances for most clubs. You think Liverpool/United compete if City goes and gets Messi plus two other players this transfer? the modern game is fudged .. (the occasional Leicester/Pompey fluke aside), we could do like the Scum and give up on everything but focus on a domestic cup?
Great post and the last point being the most pertinent.
If, under current COVID conditions, Chelsea can afford to throw money around like it's nothing then they are either receiving a big investment from Roman or they will have to decimate their squad to pay for it. If it's the latter they will have to sell 6 to 8 good players to get their money back which to me kind of defeats the point.
Money from the Arabs and Russia seems to be the only way to compete unless you are Utd or Pool (who have the biggest overseas fanbase).
Factor in the likelihood of closed doors football for a significant part of the season (I don't see stadia opening before 2021) and Spurs will not have the financial base to compete against slush fund football teams.
I’d forgotten they got £130m for Hazard and £60m off for Morata not long ago, which has been burning a hole in their pocket since their transfer ban. It would be a surprise to me if they completely went away from their self-sustaining model of the last few years.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Likewise, mate! I admit up front - I don't think I'll change minds, or that mine will be easily changed. But always happy to discuss.
Liverpool didn't push their club into debt - far from it. Owner-financed spending accounting for roughly 200m in the last ten years, most of it written off by FSG at the close of the decade. The only debts Liverpool took out were for the same reason as us - to invest in infrastructure, in their case their new ground.
There's a modicum of risk-taking in Liverpool's strategy, but it's hardly outrageous - it's investing in the future, and speculating to accumulate. Which has gotten them their sixth Champions League, their first league title in 30-odd years, and has cemented FSG as one of the more successful owners in their history.
And remember, their income was lower than ours at multiple points in the last decade. They finished lower than us, and they started off at a worse point in terms of their squad than we did when FSG took over, with a worse team.
Nothing they did was unachievable for a club like ours. It took ambition, however - which Cheap and Cheaper on our end have always lacked. That's the difference between them at the summit of English football, and us scraping around for bargain bins. It's possibly also why we've lost our best staff to them - Michael Edwards, Alex Inglethorpe and so on.
I'd like to think that Klopp got his team to the final because of FSG's support for him - Poch got us to the final *despite* ENIC's crushing lack of support for him. The two self-destructive, willfully suicidal transfer windows of summer 2018 and January 2019 were proof enough of that.
Fine, let's say large scale financing is incredibly difficult - lots of clubs take out low-interest loans for stadium projects, but let's assume it's uniquely difficult to do. What about us taking a loan against our assets and paying it back entirely with our money indicates that ENIC had their skin in the game? They didn't - they put in nothing towards our loans, they just signed off on them. The cheapskates put in about 50m into the club in 20 years, and that includes their initial purchase price.
Not saying we made a lot of money - don't doubt you're right. But we were a historically successful club, one of the biggest in England, with some of the most memorable records in English football, including in the FA Cup - a competition that was once 'our' competition, so dominant were we. All of that self-regard, that history of trophies (and yes, we used to win them fairly regularly) was swept away by 20 years of nothing under cheapskates whose primary aim was and has always been inflating the club's sales price so they can make off with their billion quid, at minimum (or no) cost to them.
Eh. Ashley's worse, but I don't think Levy is good - I think he's utterly mediocre, versus Ashley's actively sub-par. There isn't all that much in it. But fair enough, mate.
Neither of us know, true. But I'm willing to wager that their past 20 years is a good indicator of what their behaviour will be like in the next 20 (and GHod, ENIC being around for another 20 years is a terrifying thought - one League Cup in 40 years?). The funny thing is, it's not like Levy doesn't know what he's regarded as - he even admits in All or Nothing that people think he's an unambitious cheapskate. Sadly, nothing will change because of that admission - at least, that's my guess.
Yep, the 90s were awful - a real destructive bitch of a decade, down to Scholar and Sugar being awful owners. No argument there. The problem is, the 90s were 20 years ago, were only about 10 years long, and still saw us win two trophies, which is about our historical rate per decade. That they are still being used to justify ENIC's mediocrity in 2020 is just baffling to me. FSG turned Liverpool around from a team with Roy Hodgson in charge and Paul Konchesky leading it to European and PL champions in half the time - that's excellence, that's vision. Not whatever muddling ENIC's done on our dime, at utterly no risk to them, for 20 years.
They absolutely did, for all sorts of reasons. Yes, Chelsea and City skewed the game, no one denies that. And maybe ENIC thought they could do it on the cheap until Chelsea and City came along in the span of 5 years and ruined their plans. But the fact that our teams routinely failed at the death, that our managers went unsupported and were then fired, that we acted like a League Two side in the market (setting records for our parsimony - becoming the first club in all England to not buy anyone by choice for a full year, for instance), that we balked at the death when investment could have gotten us over the line...
...our failures are ENIC's, imo - precisely because they believe they can do everything on the cheap. And all that they have done in 20 years pales in comparison to the fact that they've beaten down so many of us into subconsciously believing that our place is here, scrabbling along as trophyless cheapskates, because we can't expect anything better or we'd do a Leeds.
We can expect better. We must. We can dream of more ambition.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Soz, mate.