Benjamin Stambouli

[DubaiSpur]

Dubai, I think you're way over reacting here.

I'm a big advocate of getting the manager the players he wants. And if a club doesn't do that, it's pretty quickly going to end in tears. Us not getting Moutinho for AVB was a shame, but actually the fault of the club wasn't not getting Mountinho, it was not getting AVB a similar type of player, or AVB's fault for not having back ups in mind and taking a 'Moutinho or bust' mentality. If a coach can only succeed with £30M first choice signings then he isn't the coach we want at a club like ours.

We hired Poch because he gets the best out of players. He improves them beyond recognition. He's a good fit for what we need, and we shouldn't need to get give him £30M players for him to do his job well. As a coach of a top 6 club, he should have a list of names he would like to get in order to carry off his style of football. If we can't get MS, it's important we get someone who is at least of a similar type to him, so that we implement the style MP wants. With AVB and Moutinho, it's like we didn't get this one player who would have liked everything together, and so the style of football we played never evolved to a consistently exciting level, because we had no back up of a similar type.

If anything, I think this transfer shows sound strategy at the club. We aren't dragging our heels until deadline day and potentially getting shafted, we are moving swiftly on if we see a deal become too much hassle but more importantly we are getting the right types of players in that we need.

I would also say that Capoue's performances in these first few games have probably suggested to Poch that he's exactly the type of player that can work in the system he will employ, and therefore doesn't need to spend £30M on a player to relegate Capoue to second choice, when Capoue himself was signed only a year ago for £10M and lauded for his potential. Capoue has probably played his way into a starting spot, meaning we need a similar type as back up, not an MS type. And that means the £30M can be better spent elsewhere. Again, I think this is intelligent strategy and should be praised, not be looked at as a cause for concern.

Last summer, as I said, involved getting the right 'type' of player, not the player himself. For Willian, think Lamela: for Hulk, think Chadli. Didn't work, as AVB's ignominious exit proved. And if AVB failed as a coach because he wasn't given exactly the kind of tools he needed, then what was our excuse for the same type of thing happening back in the Redknapp days? For all his faults, he was closer to being a 'success' than any of our other managers in recent memory, and we still did to him exactly what we did to AVB: we gave him the 'type' of player he asked for (Saha and Nelsen, CF and Cb, oh joy) and it didn't help us much.

Can we try something different? Should we? On the one hand, Poch seems to me like a genuinely capable manager, and thus we might not need to change the way we go about things: but on the other, we can't really tell him we're 'backing' him, which was what I thought we would do this summer.

 

[DubaiSpur]

:lol:

You don't seriously think that that is the subtext of our failure (thus far, at least) to sign Musacchio and Schneiderlin?

Schneiderlin, yeah. Most on here don't think he's worth the money Southampton want for him. I'd wager the board think likewise. But if it doesn't put us in a perilous position financially (and with our outgoings, I don't think it will) that shouldn't matter: Poch wants him, and presumably he's made an elegant case for getting him. So accept that at face value, for once, is essentially what I'm suggesting.

 

[billyiddo]

i think at this point we don't really know how much MP wants MS, so it's a moot point - for all we know he's seen more of Capoue and thought that spending 20-30m (which will effect strengthening other areas in the next couple of windows) on Schneiderlin is excessive.

 

[DubaiSpur]

i think at this point we don't really know how much MP wants MS, so it's a moot point

We didn't know exactly how much AVB wanted Moutinho/Hulk/Willian last summer either, but I do get your point. Won't prevent some lingering apprehension about this move on my side, though.

 

[Spursalot]

Schneiderlin, yeah. Most on here don't think he's worth the money Southampton want for him. I'd wager the board think likewise. But if it doesn't put us in a perilous position financially (and with our outgoings, I don't think it will) that shouldn't matter: Poch wants him, and presumably he's made an elegant case for getting him. So accept that at face value, for once, is essentially what I'm suggesting.

But that's how you get in a desperate situation long term. The main reason we are in such a strong financial position is due to the deals that Levy has made, and on the whole they have worked out pretty well. It's his managerial appointments that have been lacking.

If saints don't want to sell (As they keep saying to everyone who will listen) how do you propose to make this transfer happen? You say 27m is alright? How about 35m? 40m?

There has to be a limit. Schneiderlin's not worth over 20m in my mind. We have to buy sensibly, that's what allows us to spend big on the Lamelas and the like when the possibility comes along.

 

[billyiddo]

i totally get your view point, repeating mistakes of the past etc - i just think maybe you're letting what has happened previously give you a cynical view of what is happening now.

looking in isolation at this window i think it'd be a stretch to say we haven't backed the manager

 

[glorygloryeze]

Well stone the crows; this one is TOTALLY out of the blue and if it comes off (and isn't just to play mind games with Soton re Schneiderlin) it will truly show to me that Redknapp and Sherwood were the big leaks in the past in terms of ITK and our general transfer dealings..

 

[glorygloryeze]

Out of interest, does anyone know how this guy's skillset compare with Capoue's, Schneiderlin or Matic?

 

[Mumorn]

Out of interest, does anyone know how this guy's skillset compare with Capoue's, Schneiderlin or Matic?

looking at youtube, he likes to press intensely and covers ground well like sandro
going by squawka stats, he would compliment capoue well
going by youtube his passing looks good, quick and incisive

personlly he reminds me of marseilles lorik cana when he was unreal

 

[diego_maradona]

Out of interest, does anyone know how this guy's skillset compare with Capoue's, Schneiderlin or Matic?

Well I consider myself an expert since I learned about him at around 7.30 ish today and having seen 2 youtube videos, I'm going to say he's better than all the names listed. We MUST get him. NOW.

 

[DubaiSpur]

But that's how you get in a desperate situation long term. The main reason we are in such a strong financial position is due to the deals that Levy has made, and on the whole they have worked out pretty well. It's his managerial appointments that have been lacking.

If saints don't want to sell (As they keep saying to everyone who will listen) how do you propose to make this transfer happen? You say 27m is alright? How about 35m? 40m?

There has to be a limit. Schneiderlin's not worth over 20m in my mind. We have to buy sensibly, that's what allows us to spend big on the Lamelas and the like when the possibility comes along.

By my estimation, we threw away 30+ million quid twice with our failure to spend when we could have spent. The margins when it comes to 3rd, 4th and 5th place have been tiny, and we've been on the wrong side too often. If that happens again this season, and if Poch goes the AVB way, what exactly will we have learned from all those failures? Nothing, is my suggestion. And it is somewhat ludicrous that Schneiderlin is considered too expensive to buy given that we could very conceivably make his fee back in sales that look like they are going to happen regardless (Sandro, Holtby,Townsend). This has to change at some point. My abiding fear is that a clearly talented manager like Poch will leave this club amidst recriminations and acrimony again and we still will persist with this doodlebug-like obsession with second guessing the men in charge and then labelling them 'bad managers' for failing to make use of the players we decided were better for them than the ones they themselves had selected.

 

[jimmyb]

Schneiderlin, yeah. Most on here don't think he's worth the money Southampton want for him. I'd wager the board think likewise. But if it doesn't put us in a perilous position financially (and with our outgoings, I don't think it will) that shouldn't matter: Poch wants him, and presumably he's made an elegant case for getting him. So accept that at face value, for once, is essentially what I'm suggesting.

You might well be right that Spurs have made a judgement call as to Schneiderlin's worth. If so, that's the only responsible way for a club like ours (with a finite budget) to proceed. But you are making the assumption that:

a) Pochettino wants the club to pursue the signing of Schneiderlin even at Southampton's inflated price.

b) Pochettino wasn't made fully aware of the club's transfer strategy before he agreed to become our head coach.

The truth is that you don't know that Poch doesn't actually agree with the decision not to pay Southampton what they want (if, indeed, they are prepared to sell at all). You don't know that he doesn't understand, accept and approve of our policy of moving on to pre-agreed second or third choices in the event that deals for our first choice targets aren't right for us.

So you can't, with any credibility, say that our failure to land Musacchio or Schneiderlin is tantamount to Levy, Baldini et al "subconsciously telling (Pochettino) 'we don't think your judgement in the market is sound, and we don't think your targets are worthwhile".

 

[SpursNorway]

This. And if this deal's actually on the table....then I'm more than a bit concerned that we're basically repeating the mistakes of last season, handing our manager a bunch of players that he doesn't want after miserably failing to secure his (apparent) first choices. We saw how that worked out with AVB. We saw how that worked out with Harry in the January window of 2012.

If we do this again with Poch, I will be very, very concerned. I hope this is all bull, and Schneiderlin remains on the list of targets to get. Else, there will definitely be echoes of the Willian and Moutinho transfers around the guy, and if Poch doesn't do as well as we all hope he will, this club will again descend into the sea of bitterness and recrimination that marked the acrid end of AVB's tenure here.

Plus, his Youtube fare is awful. Seriously, I'd prefer Alex Song to this guy if we've truly given up on buying Poch's (apparent) first choices.

Firstly we will keep our best players, no doubt. Hugo, Verts, Capoue, Bentaleb, Dembe, Paulie, Eriksen, Lamela, Ade, Soldado (most probably) will all be here the coming season.
Vorm? No problem, he's been playing in the PL for years. He's taking the number two spot from Brad, dont think its anything but positive for us.
Fazio? Jury is still out on him, but he will probably be at least the same as Daws.
Davies? Competition for Rose was clearly a priority (Verts would like not to play LB), and it's been done - if you dont want BAE back instead.
Dier? Has already shown that he can cope, and is still young.
Stambouli? We will probably sell Sandro (who didnt play much last season, and IMO is too slow to play in Pochs system). You didnt like the Youtube clip, I did. I think he has got a lot of Luka in him. A bit taller, a bit faster (when Luka arrived). My thought is he's got a big potensiale.
Holtby and Fryers also probably will go, none of them played a lot last season. The difference to what AVB did (or Baldini/Levy) last year is that we now have key players in the squad who knows what to do, and has adapted to the PL.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You might well be right that Spurs have made a judgement call as to Schneiderlin's worth. If so, that's the only responsible way for a club like ours (with a finite budget) to proceed. But you are making the assumption that:

a) Pochettino wants the club to pursue the signing of Schneiderlin even at Southampton's inflated price.

b) Pochettino wasn't made fully aware of the club's transfer strategy before he agreed to become our head coach.

The truth is that you don't know that Poch doesn't actually agree with the decision not to pay Southampton what they want (if, indeed, they are prepared to sell at all). You don't know that he doesn't understand, accept and approve of our policy of moving on to pre-agreed second or third choices in the event that deals for our first choice targets aren't right for us.

So you can't, with any credibility, say that our failure to land Musacchio or Schneiderlin is tantamount to Levy, Baldini et al "subconsciously telling (Pochettino) 'we don't think your judgement in the market is sound, and we don't think your targets are worthwhile".

I've replied to harr1984 (I think) about this already: by all accounts (from the BBC to the Guardian), we made two more bids after the initial one was knocked back by Southampton, both of them coming after Southampton's arbitrary refusal to deal with us. So there is concrete interest there from Poch, judging by what we've got to go with. As for agreeing to the club's transfer policy, like I said, I'm going on past evidence here: whatever AVB agreed to when he became our manager clearly didn't include his players being deemed unrealistic and replaced with cheaper alternatives, since he walked out over that issue.

i totally get your view point, repeating mistakes of the past etc - i just think maybe you're letting what has happened previously give you a cynical view of what is happening now.

looking in isolation at this window i think it'd be a stretch to say we haven't backed the manager

Well, we'll see what happens, I suppose. Like I said, I have feeling that we're in for a great season either way: I just ultimately hope it'll be because of the relationship between Poch and the board, and not despite it.

 

[billyiddo]

Well, we'll see what happens, I suppose. Like I said, I have feeling that we're in for a great season either way: I just ultimately hope it'll be because of the relationship between Poch and the board, and not despite it.

agreed

ultimately, as with AVB, we won't know of any ill feeling over the transfer window until a later date (and only if things go wrong, one would assume)

 

[Spursalot]

By my estimation, we threw away 30+ million quid twice with our failure to spend when we could have spent. The margins when it comes to 3rd, 4th and 5th place have been tiny, and we've been on the wrong side too often. If that happens again this season, and if Poch goes the AVB way, what exactly will we have learned from all those failures? Nothing, is my suggestion. And it is somewhat ludicrous that Schneiderlin is considered too expensive to buy given that we could very conceivably make his fee back in sales that look like they are going to happen regardless (Sandro, Holtby,Townsend). This has to change at some point. My abiding fear is that a clearly talented manager like Poch will leave this club amidst recriminations and acrimony again and we still will persist with this doodlebug-like obsession with second guessing the men in charge and then labelling them 'bad managers' for failing to make use of the players we decided were better for them than the ones they themselves had selected.

Would spending have ensured us champions league football though? The answer is that it's impossible to know.

If Poch goes the AVB way? So if he alienates the players and persists with formations and teams that can't stand up to the big teams?

Still with the 'players the managers don't want'.. I'll agree with you that they might not be Poch's first choice, but to speculate that he doesn't want any of them is a little out there. Nobody has decided that they are 'better', just that they are actually obtainable.


Schneiderlin is worthwhile because we'll make the money back selling others? That's not how it works. With that attitude you're justifying 30m for Andy Carroll considering the money was there to be spent after the sale of Torres.


We're not going to see eye to eye on this mind. In my mind sensible business does not have to change at any point.

 

[Baleforce]

I think DubaiSpur's concerns are valid, we'll not know the truth for a while though, if ever.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Would spending have ensured us champions league football though? The answer is that it's impossible to know.

If Poch goes the AVB way? So if he alienates the players and persists with formations and teams that can't stand up to the big teams?

Did not spending on the players the manager wanted (Cahill, a world class striker, and then Moutinho) hurt our quest for CL football? 100 percent, yes it did. So it is a justified gamble, in the admitted realm of estimation via hindsight.

As for AVB, I'm not of the opinion that he was a bad manager, I am firmly of the opinion that he was the wrong man at the wrong time, and was given almost no real backing in terms of trust in his vision or the retention of his players: however, he was and remains a damn good manager when he's been trusted and has players at his disposal that he wants and can work with.

Still with the 'players the managers don't want'.. I'll agree with you that they might not be Poch's first choice, but to speculate that he doesn't want any of them is a little out there. Nobody has decided that they are 'better', just that they are actually obtainable.

I didn't say he doesn't want the lads we've signed (although AVB almost certainly didn't): I did say they weren't the ones he would have chosen if given true backing, and that's a bit hard to dispute given that we've essentially signed his third-choice centre back and seem to have given up on another major acquisition.

Schneiderlin is worthwhile because we'll make the money back selling others? That's not how it works. With that attitude you're justifying 30m for Andy Carroll considering the money was there to be spent after the sale of Torres.


We're not going to see eye to eye on this mind. In my mind sensible business does not have to change at any point.

I agree, we aren't going to see eye to eye on this. In my mind, our business has not been sensible: cautious to the point of risk-averse, yes, but that does not make it 'sensible', and ultimately will cost us opportunities down the line, at least until we've gotten the stadium up and running at last. Still, you have your opinion, and I respect it as valid.

 

[tw12yid]

I haven't followed what he has done at zenit regarding signings but at the beginning of last summer I had reservations about giving avb a lot of money to spend. This was because he had never put a squad together. The only time he had success had been at Porto with a squad that was already assembled.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

As for AVB, I'm not of the opinion that he was a bad manager, I am firmly of the opinion that he was the wrong man at the wrong time, and was given almost no real backing in terms of trust in his vision or the retention of his players: however, he was and remains a damn good manager when he's been trusted and has players at his disposal that he wants and can work with.

No, no, no and no. AVB was and is a bad manager, a downright bad manager. He's blagged millions and a career on the back of happening to live in the same apartment block as Bobby Robson. He inherited a good squad in a poor league in Portugal and everything he's done since then has been sub-standard. Bale blagged him through a season at Spurs.

If he came back to England and went to a newly promoted team - like Southampton were - and turned them into a top 8 team, then he'd have the right to call himself a good manager.