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Another shooting in Murica

scaramanga said:
It may be surprising to you (it is to most) that, from the best data we have, US police are less likely to use force of any kind (including shooting) with black suspects than others.

There's likely to be some racial bias in the fact that they have more interactions with black suspects (and plenty of societal ones too), but not in the use of force as best as we can tell.
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That sounds surprising. When you say “the best data we have”, who is we and what data? Nature did this https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z roundup recently: as you’d expect, the massive number of LEAs in the US, the variations in how use of force is defined (handcuffing counts in those stats, over here, btw) and the patchiness of records keeping all make a meta analysis pretty tricky, but they don’t reach the same conclusion as you do, and most of their snapshot data goes the other way.

Grays is absolutely right that everything is exacerbated by gun prevalence, of course.
 
Also, Scara is missing a trick here in that many of US policing’s issues stem from the difficulty of disciplining officers in the face of very strong police unions, and in particular the impossibility of preventing known bad apples from waltzing into new jobs in different law enforcement bodies.

You’d have thought that union-bashing would be more fun for him than defending the indefensible.
 
scaramanga said:
It may be surprising to you (it is to most) that, from the best data we have, US police are less likely to use force of any kind (including shooting) with black suspects than others.

There's likely to be some racial bias in the fact that they have more interactions with black suspects (and plenty of societal ones too), but not in the use of force as best as we can tell.
Click to expand...

I thought excessive force stats showed Black, Hispanic then white victims in that order?
 
awesome dawson said:
What the fcuk are you talking about Willis?

I’d love to see this data. The best data. Best in the world data.
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ShipOfGoldblum said:
That sounds surprising. When you say “the best data we have”, who is we and what data? Nature did this https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z roundup recently: as you’d expect, the massive number of LEAs in the US, the variations in how use of force is defined (handcuffing counts in those stats, over here, btw) and the patchiness of records keeping all make a meta analysis pretty tricky, but they don’t reach the same conclusion as you do, and most of their snapshot data goes the other way.

Grays is absolutely right that everything is exacerbated by gun prevalence, of course.
Click to expand...

I've already linked it, either in this thread or the BLM one (fairly sure it was this). I'll dig back later when I have more time and find it.

What the data showed is that black men are more likely to be stopped, but of those stopped, they are least likely to be shot or have any of what's graded as the higher levels of physical restraint aimed at them.

So as I said above, there's certainly something to be said about the fact that police stop more black men (although this is at least partly a societal issue rather than a race one) as most police seem to be fairly poor at understanding cause and effect.
 
thfcsteff said:
You continue to stand as one of the most honest debators here.Even when we disagree no-one can accuse you of wriggling.
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I am pretty great it's true.


I know you live in the states. Is it getting to the point whereyou dont feel safe now?

We wanted to drive the Pacific coast highway. You know im not anti American but as fascinating as the country looks im not sure i want to visit again.

Trump is the cause of the current problems for me. He is president he should be coming out and trying to subdue the tensions instead he rises them.

I am not trying to sound woke or politically correct, could not think of anything worse. It is clear he is not fit to be president and it is clear the police over there have a huge issue with black men.

My politics are i believe in being tough on criminals but after they have been through a court of law. My views on same sex marriages and trans and disabled and race and asylum issues would put me on the left. Yes be tough on criminals but only after a trial.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I am pretty great it's true.


I know you live in the states. Is it getting to the point whereyou dont feel safe now?

We wanted to drive the Pacific coast highway. You know im not anti American but as fascinating as the country looks im not sure i want to visit again.

Trump is the cause of the current problems for me. He is president he should be coming out and trying to subdue the tensions instead he rises them.

I am not trying to sound woke or politically correct, could not think of anything worse. It is clear he is not fit to be president and it is clear the police over there have a huge issue with black men.

My politics are i believe in being tough on criminals but after they have been through a court of law. My views on same sex marriages and trans and disabled and race and asylum issues would put me on the left. Yes be tough on criminals but only after a trial.
Click to expand...

His dividing the country helps his chances of election
 
awesome dawson said:
What the fcuk are you talking about Willis?

I’d love to see this data. The best data. Best in the world data.
Click to expand...

ShipOfGoldblum said:
That sounds surprising. When you say “the best data we have”, who is we and what data? Nature did this https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z roundup recently: as you’d expect, the massive number of LEAs in the US, the variations in how use of force is defined (handcuffing counts in those stats, over here, btw) and the patchiness of records keeping all make a meta analysis pretty tricky, but they don’t reach the same conclusion as you do, and most of their snapshot data goes the other way.

Grays is absolutely right that everything is exacerbated by gun prevalence, of course.
Click to expand...

Grays_1890 said:
I thought excessive force stats showed Black, Hispanic then white victims in that order?
Click to expand...
Couldn't find my post here, was easier to find it at it's original site:

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf
 
Article written by some Yale 21 year old student nerd with zero life experience. Who do you think collected all the data used in that report? The same systematically racist police who do the stop and shoots in the first place. I’m sure that data is as solid as arsenals back four.

I copied this minor extract from the article as it really shows how an equation represents the struggle of the white cop;

shootingi,t “ Race1iα ` Xi1,tβ ` νt ` εi,t,
 
Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 558 civilians having been shot, 111 of whom were Black, as of July 29, 2020. In 2018, there were 996 fatal police shootings, and in 2019 this figure increased to 1,004. Additionally, the rate of fatal police shootings among Black Americans was much higher than that for any other ethnicity, standing at 31 fatal shootings per million of the population as of July 2020.
 
awesome dawson said:
Article written by some Yale 21 year old student nerd with zero life experience. Who do you think collected all the data used in that report? The same systematically racist police who do the stop and shoots in the first place. I’m sure that data is as solid as arsenals back four.

I copied this minor extract from the article as it really shows how an equation represents the struggle of the white cop;

shootingi,t “ Race1iα ` Xi1,tβ ` νt ` εi,t,
Click to expand...
:D

https://scholar.harvard.edu/fryer/home
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
The author goes into exemplary depth about the issues with the data involved, and why it shouldn’t be relied upon, so there’s no need to supplement his caveats.
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There are a lot of issues with the data, but they're the best and most comprehensive I've seen.

If people are going to claim that people are getting shot by racist police, they're really going to need something more than "But YouTube said so" to back it up. These are the best data I've seen and they don't support that.
 
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