*** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur VS Some Gauche Middle Eastern Oil Money ***

[alekaras]

HAHAHAHA it is you who is WUM to come out with that whopper. Guardiola is world class. Poch hasn't won a cup as a manager.

Is it really? Stop being deluded , it's the truth. Juande Ramos manage to bring more honours to this club in his short stint with us than Poch has done in 4 years! Yes, granted we have finished runners up twice in the league, but you don't win cups finishing second.

You're right, you win cups by finishing 11th.

 

[parklane1]

I don’t think anyone had an issue with us losing to Emirates Marketing Project, but was expecting us to compete - one of Pochs favourite words. Maybe some have over reacted with their words, but I don’t believe anyone was disappointed simply because we lost to Emirates Marketing Project....

There is no maybe about it mate. Not saying you were one of them but there has been a lot of gonads written.

 

[90291Spur]

You're right, you win cups by finishing 11th.

And by getting 2 points from 8 games. Which is a stat not many people are familiar with, as 'Arry kept the points total he inherited very quiet.

 

[harr1984]

There is no maybe about it mate. Not saying you were one of them but there has been a lot of gonads written.

Well I think we should draw a line under it now, was a bad day at the office for everyone at the club and on here. At the end of the day we all react differently when badly beaten, but we all care the same and share the common goal of wanting Spurs to succeed....

 

[thfcsteff]

Losing to the best Premership side i have seen in the last decade or so is not the end ( and from some posts in this tread and elsewhere you would get that impression).

Fine margins too.
Heading into the 70th minute we were one down and clawing our way back in. Then DeBryune decided to hit next level in retaliation to the foul. In fairness, he did EXACTLY what you coach kids to do when 'wronged', he put his anger into the ball and we felt the full wrath.

 

[thfcsteff]

There's this weird, febrile cultishness to your position on Poch that I just can't understand. The way you put it, he never makes mistakes, he is literally perfect, everything is perfectly planned, nothing ever goes wrong on his end, he's a genius when he gets out of bed and a bigger genius when he tucks back into it at the end of each day.

Yet, *he himself* will tell you that he makes mistakes, that he's still learning, that he isn't the finished article and neither is his team. He's no Sir Alex. He's no Jose Mourinho. He's no Pep Guardiola. He's no Arsene Wenger. Not yet. And he'll tell you as much - I'm *damn* sure of that.

You are rushing to defend the man more than he probably would himself, and it's honestly damn weird to see, Steff. You also presuppose motivations that don't exist, and assume that I and other people hold positions that we really don't. And again, just being honest here, no snark intended - that's pretty weird to see, mate.

I wish you'd say that instead of coating him with the sort of accusations that suggest he puts himself before the club and his job. Again, he deserves MAXIMUM RESPECT. Does he also deserve criticism at times? Absolutely. But IMO your observations on the game and the 'obvious' things he 'didn't do' were wrong.

With regards to 'febrile' I have to call 'pot' and 'kettle'...

 

[DubaiSpur]

I wish you'd say that instead of coating him with the sort of accusations that suggest he puts himself before the club and his job. Again, he deserves MAXIMUM RESPECT. Does he also deserve criticism at times? Absolutely. But IMO your observations on the game and the 'obvious' things he 'didn't do' were wrong.

Okay, fine. I can work with that. *Why* am I wrong? Do you not agree we were slaughtered down the right hand side, or that three of the four goals came down that side as a result of Sane hopelessly outpacing Trippier? And, if so, don't you think Aurier would have helped with that? I posted a link here which held that Aurier was the fastest player at the World Cup in 2014 - surely that, along with his competitiveness and physicality, would have helped?

These are specifics we can argue about, and it's fair to bring them up. Jumping straight to 'Poch develops players, Pep doesn't, 50 million Dier' isn't really fair, imo, because it implies that the people criticizing Poch are somehow *against* this happening, or think Pep does a better job of it. Neither is true, neither is fair.

With regards to 'febrile' I have to call 'pot' and 'kettle'...

I don't deny it - never have, at least since it started happening a very long time ago. I'm the absolute worst person to be with post-defeat because of it. If I've ever tried to hide it, I apologize. But if you dislike that, you're not doing a much better job when you go overboard in the other direction about Poch, mate.

 

[thfcsteff]

Discussion below in bold...

Okay, fine. I can work with that. *Why* am I wrong? Do you not agree we were slaughtered down the right hand side, or that three of the four goals came down that side as a result of Sane hopelessly outpacing Trippier? And, if so, don't you think Aurier would have helped with that? I posted a link here which held that Aurier was the fastest player at the World Cup in 2014 - surely that, along with his competitiveness and physicality, would have helped?

The first goal was a missed assignment from a corner, the second goal was a quick break after Trippier had taken a throw high up the pitch which Gazza had mis-controlled (Sane ran but it was Gungodan who found DeBruyne, newly injected with venom after Alli's awful foul)...in fact, when Moose fails to deal with the situation unfolding -as does Winks- we have three covering the left into centre and no-one covering the deep right where all the City players are breaking!!!!!!!!! Trippier is entitled to expect slightly better coverage! I'd even say Hugo should be doing way better there...for the third, again the DMs are poor, slow in starting positions, almost static as City break on them and thus Moose is caught again. Trippier's positional sense is off here, but he gets sucked into covering the centre (he shouldn't but he does) allowing Sane an easy run off the back of him; I argue this is not pace but positioning, which again is caused as much by others as just one man...the fourth goal is a ball from the right into the centre which Dier misjudges allowing Sterling an easy goal. So again, no, I wholly disagree that Tripper was the 'obvious' and 'main' culprit, in fact, just as I felt at the time, the major issues in all concessions were sloppy play from our DMs and an overall poverty of quality touch on the ball.

http://www.nbcsports.com/video/man-city-4-tottenham-1-highlights

These are specifics we can argue about, and it's fair to bring them up. Jumping straight to 'Poch develops players, Pep doesn't, 50 million Dier' isn't really fair, imo, because it implies that the people criticizing Poch are somehow *against* this happening, or think Pep does a better job of it. Neither is true, neither is fair.

Didn't say, or imply this, at all.



I don't deny it - never have, at least since it started happening a very long time ago. I'm the absolute worst person to be with post-defeat because of it. If I've ever tried to hide it, I apologize. But if you dislike that, you're not doing a much better job when you go overboard in the other direction about Poch, mate.

Again, I said the man deserves total respect. He does. This is not about agreeing with how he is managing the club, it is about respecting a man who has never shown anything less than 110% effort and respect in return for Tottenham Hotspur, who quite obviously strives for the very best he can at all times, and who has helped reshape our operations on and off the pitch dramatically and positively. Again, accusing him of what you did was poor, poor form.

 

[alekaras]

Yes because those at a young age haven’t fully made it yet. Why would Augero who’s achieved everything or David Silva feel the need to want to run harder than they’ve ever done before now at their age? Far easier to get hungry kids to work so hard. Sorry but Pep is an exceptional manager, chequebook or no chequebook...

For the same reason players who have won one title or CL don't say "fudge it, I'm done training," but train equally hard, if not harder, to win the next one and the next one.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Fine margins too.
Heading into the 70th minute we were one down and clawing our way back in. Then DeBryune decided to hit next level in retaliation to the foul. In fairness, he did EXACTLY what you coach kids to do when 'wronged', he put his anger into the ball and we felt the full wrath.

I only read the bbc and sky commentary’s and that is exactly how it looked

We didn’t take the few chances we created and let in a hell of a strike to kill the game

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/943185618519166978

 

[diego_maradona]

I was at the game and have not watched it back until today. The goals conceded were horrendous. I've never seen us defend so horridly under Pochettino. The first goal is unforgivable, we had no idea who was picking up who. Gundogan just walked in.
Second goal and third goal, Trippier was horribly exposed but he was caught square on against one of the quickest players hes probably come up against. Sane ruined him from the first minute, and this sort of game for Trippier was exactly what most of us feared when we sold Walker. We know against the very best (Sane, Martial, Alexis etc) this guy will get roasted every time. He is a good player, but one on one he can be targeted.
Danny Rose. He lost his head i thought. Wasn't tracking, his head just seems all over the place. He just lets Sterling waltz by to tap in the third.

Dier made some horrible mistakes too. They were petrified by their press and it just causes panic at every opportunity. There is so so much to improve upon. but for me this wasnt the real Spurs whatsoever. Everyone raving about how good City were... we were as bad as I can remember.

Onwards and upwards.

 

[Pirate55]

Fine margins too.
Heading into the 70th minute we were one down and clawing our way back in. Then DeBryune decided to hit next level in retaliation to the foul. In fairness, he did EXACTLY what you coach kids to do when 'wronged', he put his anger into the ball and we felt the full wrath.

While I agree with much of what you say, this "fine margins" bit is just fanciful. Yes the score was only 1-0 heading into the 70th minute but we could and should have been down by a hatful at halftime. We had only one brief (probably 10 minute) spell in the whole game where we were on a even footing but for the rest of the 80 minutes we were absolutely pounded by a much better side who we simply couldn't cope with.

If you take off your rose tinted specs, I think in fairness the score could have been 10-1 - and thats no exaggeration. As Diego said above, we were as bad as I can remember - at least under Poch, that is true. We looked all at sea most of the game and sometimes our defending was simply amateurish.

 

[thfcsteff]

While I agree with much of what you say, this "fine margins" bit is just fanciful. Yes the score was only 1-0 heading into the 70th minute but we could and should have been down by a hatful at halftime. We had only one brief (probably 10 minute) spell in the whole game where we were on a even footing but for the rest of the 80 minutes we were absolutely pounded by a much better side who we simply couldn't cope with.

If you take off your rose tinted specs, I think in fairness the score could have been 10-1 - and thats no exaggeration. As Diego said above, we were as bad as I can remember - at least under Poch, that is true. We looked all at sea most of the game and sometimes our defending was simply amateurish.

Can't argue. In fairness in that specific reply they got a bit 'tinty', and I noticed that my overall reflections of the game were both disappointed and surprised at how much of a class gap there was on the day, so I cannot disagree in part because I never really did? But yes, there were big issues. i think, personally, these were down to individuals we rely on simply not showing up whatsoever, a CM pairing which allowed Guardiola to swarm Dembele and isolate Winks thus seeing us get steamrolled through those areas, at which time all defensive vulnerabilities were magnified (Tripper carried the can but as I broke down in an earlier post, I don't believe he was solely responsible whatsoever and again we look to CM as the major soft-spot)...it reminded me of the scouse tonking we got what was it, last season?

the other thing which blew me away was how ham-footed we looked. Every simple touch was sluggish, poor and laborious. The lack of first touch cost us big big time, and I'd love to know where it went. Truth be told, the whole performance smacked of something underneath, but I am choosing not to speculate as that is all it would be and IMO, posh and the side deserve my support...

 

[Pirate55]

I think that is a very fair summation of the game.

Like you, I worry there is something underlying and sincerely hope I am wrong. But there doesn't seem to be the same spirit, cohesiveness or plain "joie de vivre" that there has been for the last two seasons.

I too have faith in Poch and hope he addresses the issue quickly. It seems to me we need to freshen things up and with Wanyama and Toby still some way away from the team, I would be tempted to shake things up and take Alli and Kane out of the immediate firing line. With Llorente in and Kane at no 10 with Dele coming off the bench might be our best option for Burnley.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I think that is a very fair summation of the game.

Like you, I worry there is something underlying and sincerely hope I am wrong. But there doesn't seem to be the same spirit, cohesiveness or plain "joie de vivre" that there has been for the last two seasons.

I too have faith in Poch and hope he addresses the issue quickly. It seems to me we need to freshen things up and with Wanyama and Toby still some way away from the team, I would be tempted to shake things up and take Alli and Kane out of the immediate firing line. With Llorente in and Kane at no 10 with Dele coming off the bench might be our best option for Burnley.

Alli maybe but Kane? Really? Sharp intake of breath!

 

[Pirate55]

Alli maybe but Kane? Really? Sharp intake of breath![/QUOTE

Kane has led the line really poorly recently imo. I watched him closely against Brighton. His movement was really poor - he never left his central position to create space for others. He isn't winning headers, holding the ball up well or bringing others into play. I am not suggesting dropping him altogether but if we put Llorente in the central striker role with Kane given a freer roaming role, I think this would be taking some of the pressure off him that is all.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The first goal was a missed assignment from a corner, the second goal was a quick break after Trippier had taken a throw high up the pitch which Gazza had mis-controlled (Sane ran but it was Gungodan who found DeBruyne, newly injected with venom after Alli's awful foul)...in fact, when Moose fails to deal with the situation unfolding -as does Winks- we have three covering the left into centre and no-one covering the deep right where all the City players are breaking!!!!!!!!! Trippier is entitled to expect slightly better coverage! I'd even say Hugo should be doing way better there...for the third, again the DMs are poor, slow in starting positions, almost static as City break on them and thus Moose is caught again. Trippier's positional sense is off here, but he gets sucked into covering the centre (he shouldn't but he does) allowing Sane an easy run off the back of him; I argue this is not pace but positioning, which again is caused as much by others as just one man...the fourth goal is a ball from the right into the centre which Dier misjudges allowing Sterling an easy goal. So again, no, I wholly disagree that Tripper was the 'obvious' and 'main' culprit, in fact, just as I felt at the time, the major issues in all concessions were sloppy play from our DMs and an overall poverty of quality touch on the ball.

Right, bit late, but here goes - I agree in part, but I'd also take issue with a few bits of that. Firstly, the first goal was because Sane beat Trippier down the right and *earned* that corner - after all, if there isn't a corner, there is't a chance to concede that free header, surely?. The second goal, as you mentioned, was Trippier's throw in leading to a breakaway that resulted in a goal down the right - I didn't say it was Sane (as you pointed out, it was De Bruyne), I said it was down the right hand side. I agree, no one covered the right-hand side there. I'm not excusing the midfield for what happened - or the forwards, or the defense, really. My contention is simply that Aurier's pace and strength would have ameliorated the spaces left down that side whether or not Dembele and Winks shuffled over to do their jobs and cover for the right-back - it would have been harder for Sane, De Bruyne and co. to blast through that empty space as they did when Trippier was either caught too far upfield or caught too narrow.

Third goal, I entirely agree with your analysis, except I'd point out that, again, Aurier's pace would have allowed him to recover from poor positioning - or given him a better chance of doing so, which wasn't the case with Trippier. Fourth goal, I didn't actually put down to the yawning gap down the right, because I remembered it as coming from a ball played down the centre from the *left*-hand side of the field - Trippier wasn't to blame for that one.

See, I don't disagree that we had an awful game all-round - we did, no doubt about it. And a large part of it was down to Winks and Dembele being overrun in midfield and simply not doing their jobs as a result. But my contention was (and remains) that, even with that huge handicap, Aurier would have done a better job than Trippier *did* - and that, at the very least, it was worth a gamble as nothing changed between going 1-0 down and going 3-0 down, save for a hatful of chances being conceded after one semi-solid period of about 10-15 minutes. I don't think that contradicts your analysis, but it is a bit of a separate point.

Didn't say, or imply this, at all.

You didn't say it, but why else would you have gone straight to the 'Poch developed 50 million-pound players' thing? It was out of the blue, and completely out of context given that I was talking about the specific ways in which Guardiola tactically approached the game and his squad, nothing more. I'd suggest that you did imply it, at least in part.

Again, accusing him of what you did was poor, poor form.

You know what...

...you're right, Steff. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that - having thought about it, I was definitely wrong to imply that he preferred inaction because of a fear of being proven wrong. It was a bridge too far, and I apologize - especially given that I mentioned earlier this season that he had earned our trust, if nothing else.

He has. Even if I disagree with his reluctance to use substitutions in situations like this - he's earned the right to avoid being accused of what I accused him of.

100%.

 

[thfcsteff]

Right, bit late, but here goes - I agree in part, but I'd also take issue with a few bits of that. Firstly, the first goal was because Sane beat Trippier down the right and *earned* that corner - after all, if there isn't a corner, there is't a chance to concede that free header, surely?. The second goal, as you mentioned, was Trippier's throw in leading to a breakaway that resulted in a goal down the right - I didn't say it was Sane (as you pointed out, it was De Bruyne), I said it was down the right hand side. I agree, no one covered the right-hand side there. I'm not excusing the midfield for what happened - or the forwards, or the defense, really. My contention is simply that Aurier's pace and strength would have ameliorated the spaces left down that side whether or not Dembele and Winks shuffled over to do their jobs and cover for the right-back - it would have been harder for Sane, De Bruyne and co. to blast through that empty space as they did when Trippier was either caught too far upfield or caught too narrow.

Third goal, I entirely agree with your analysis, except I'd point out that, again, Aurier's pace would have allowed him to recover from poor positioning - or given him a better chance of doing so, which wasn't the case with Trippier. Fourth goal, I didn't actually put down to the yawning gap down the right, because I remembered it as coming from a ball played down the centre from the *left*-hand side of the field - Trippier wasn't to blame for that one.

See, I don't disagree that we had an awful game all-round - we did, no doubt about it. And a large part of it was down to Winks and Dembele being overrun in midfield and simply not doing their jobs as a result. But my contention was (and remains) that, even with that huge handicap, Aurier would have done a better job than Trippier *did* - and that, at the very least, it was worth a gamble as nothing changed between going 1-0 down and going 3-0 down, save for a hatful of chances being conceded after one semi-solid period of about 10-15 minutes. I don't think that contradicts your analysis, but it is a bit of a separate point.



You didn't say it, but why else would you have gone straight to the 'Poch developed 50 million-pound players' thing? It was out of the blue, and completely out of context given that I was talking about the specific ways in which Guardiola tactically approached the game and his squad, nothing more. I'd suggest that you did imply it, at least in part.



You know what...

...you're right, Steff. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that - having thought about it, I was definitely wrong to imply that he preferred inaction because of a fear of being proven wrong. It was a bridge too far, and I apologize - especially given that I mentioned earlier this season that he had earned our trust, if nothing else.

He has. Even if I disagree with his reluctance to use substitutions in situations like this - he's earned the right to avoid being accused of what I accused him of.

400%.

And lets shake hands and move on...[emoji106][emoji6]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Hootnow]

Nonsense. Every manager makes mistakes in transfer market. If you have money though you can write off those mistakes. Spurs managers don't have that luxury unfortunately which magnifies their mistakes.

Also I don't recall us "bottling" matches? We were beaten in our only Cup final by the Mourinho title winning team. Last season we were beaten in the semis by Conte's title winning side - can go either way. Bottling is losing to weaker sides who we should be beating. Oh you must mean the battle of the bridge when we lost to the vastly more expensively put together Chelsea team who treated it like a cup final. Or perhaps West Ham at the London stadium even though we won all the games in the final run before and after. Lose one though we have bottled it.

I really think many fans will not appreciate how good a manager Poch is, until he leaves us and takes on a bigger club. I am sure he will win plenty of trophies then.

Yep they undoubtedly do. Sissoko is just so baffling though, I'm sorry. You could say Zokora wa a mistake for example but you can see why we bought him. Bentley was a mistake but you could see why we bought him. Sissoko? Just...no.

Also, we have money. We're not little paupers, we are literally the 12th richest club on the planet. Yes I know of the 11 above live in our league but we are not as poor as so many people seem to imply we are.

Well of course you wouldn't, with all due respect. Just as opposition fans have taken to calling every match we lose bottling it, Spurs fans as a defence have taken to denying we bottle any match, pretty much ever.

Yep those matches can go either way...and yet they don't seem to go our way and haven't for a while. Arsenal beat Emirates Marketing Project and Chelsea, two teams better than them on their way to the trophy last season, I don't think we'd have done that tbh, luck or no luck. We lost 4-2 in the semis, the only time we'd conceded anywhere near that many goals that season in a match.

I'm actually not talking about either of those matches, especially the West Ham which I wouldn't consider bottling in the slightest. Though yes, after going 2-0 up and being at the time the 2nd best team in the country, we shouldn't have allowed Chelsea to get 2 goals back. Regardless, the title was already lost by that point so I'm not all that fussed about either of those matches.

I'm actually talking about a match earlier in the 2015/2016 season. My memory with this stuff isn't great so had to look it up but i was right. 1st March, Leicester unexpectedly draw at home to WBA. For the first time that season, we have a chance to go ahead of Leicester. Next day, West Ham away and we put in what I vaguely remember being our worst performance of the season to date and came away 1-0 losers. First real chance we had to take advantage, to make Leicester sweat and we didn't take it. No worries, next Saturday we have the early game. Arsenal at home, fair enough tough game. We manage to get back to 2-1 after going a goal down, pretty good. They even get a man sent off on the 55th minute. Yet we end up with only a draw. 2nd opportunity to overtake Leicester, even if temporarily, gone. I would say bottled. From then on, the gap only gets larger.

There is also no need to get defensive. For some, any criticism of Poch seems to be anathema, strange in a post in which I said he's done an incredible job and certainly better than Ramos. He is not perfect, he makes mistakes and still hasn't won a trophy. Hopefully that will change and hopefully with us.

I'm sure he will. Until then people, especially from outside the Spurs camp, will have question marks over him. Why that is relevant to what I said anyway I don't know and seems like a rather strange strawman seeing as I said he's doing a truly great job at the moment.