***Tottenham Hotspur vs. Manchester United OMT***

[DubaiSpur]

In that 12/13 season that you talk about AVB also had Lloris and Dembele. Dembele isn't world class by any standard I'll agree to mind you, but he did have two of the 3 you mention Poch has now as well as Bale. That makes the "world class player" difference Bale instead of Alderweireld - a considerable difference I would say.

I wouldn't actually class Bale as being that much better than Toby in terms of being a difference maker to us - Bale's goalscoring record is probably matched by the difference Toby makes when he's on the field versus when he isn't, as evidenced by our record with and without him. As I said, King-esque.

The only thing that counts in terms of prize money, prestige and champs league qualification is league position. Points totals mean nothing if you finish outside the top 4. For the improvement AVB achieved with Bale , Poch has eclipsed with Kane Dier and Alli having started from a lower base. Oh and you are right we were doing brilliantly with AVB just before he was sacked.

Ah, but we're not talking about the rewards you get for finishing 4th or 5th, we're talking about whether places or points are a better measure of performance over a season. You can play better and get more points but finish lower in a competitive season than you perhaps can in a less competitive one - does that mean the latter team performed better than the former did, in objective terms?

As for AVB, I never said he did 'brilliantly' in the time leading up to his sacking - but he wasn't exactly leading us into the relegation zone by any means. He had 27 points from 16 games (8 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses) when he was sacked (the 16th of December, after the mid-week game - the third anniversary of his sacking's coming up on Friday). He had gotten us into the EL round of 32 having won all six group games. He had gotten us into the quarterfinal of the League Cup. We were eight points off the top.

Mauricio Pochettino has 27 points from 15 games heading into the midweek game, having secured a 2-1-3 record in the CL group that got us into the EL round of 32, and having been knocked out of the League Cup in the first round. We are currently ten points off the top.

So, was AVB's 2013-2014 tenure objectively worse in terms of points and results? Probably, but not by much at all.

I have to say I'm not one of Dier's biggest fans, I'm not utterly convinced by his on the ball work either for that role. But he's young and improving and already better than Wanyama.

It's about a lot more than the long balls. Toby does that, but those balls coming from the back 4 is one thing. But actually playing through pressure is something very different. And a lot more complex than just pinging long accurate long balls from the back. Wanyama is a passenger in most of our buildup play, Dier isn't. That's a significant difference.

Son plays at Lamela's passing tempo? Either we're talking past each other or we'll have to agree to disagree cause I can't see that at all. Quick one and two touch passing doesn't seem to be Son's strength for me.

Re: Dier, I don't think his work in the build-up's that good when he's put under pressure or is out of form (as the end of the season perhaps demonstrated) - but I suspect we'll disagree on that. Re: Son, yes, I think he closes down as much as Lamela does (space, not men) , and since pressing is integral to our style of play, that translates to playing (overall) at the same tempo. His passing and touches needed to control the ball demonstrate his undoubted slowness in those areas compared to Lamela, but his strengths (especially his runs in behind at pace) offset those disadvantages enough for him to be considered a quality replacement that we shouldn't really be struggling to fit into the side.

 

[braineclipse]

Let me preface my comments by saying that I am not a hater of Poch, nor do I want him sacked. However against Chelsea away in the second half and pretty much all game today he was out-thought tactically by coaches who actually have a history of winning at the highest level. This will keep happening as he is literally learning on the job. He is up against money doped clubs who can afford to buy quality players and employ coaches who are at the peak of their profession. Given that, I actually think that he is doing a pretty decent job. But he is going to need a lot more time and money to turn us into the real deal.

How does losing against money doped clubs with quality players and coaches when we are not a money doped club equal that our head coach got out-thought?

 

[scaramanga]

for me a cross is a pass from a wide position.
Was Hoddle crossing or passing when he was putting the ball on the head of a shortie like Crooks from the touch line?

Same here.

In which case a cross that doesn't reach a Spurs player in a manner that allows them to do something useful with it is as poor as any other pass with such a result

 

[DubaiSpur]

Same as last season. Results against our rivals (bar City) continues to be poor. Poch out thought by better managers ?

Well, depends on whether you consider Wenger and Guardiola to be better managers. We dominated City, outrageously so, and Poch's unorthodox back three bamboozled Wenger enough to frustrate his team's attempts to put us away, and allowed us to gain a creditable draw at the Emirates. At the same time, Conte's tactical switch left him unable to respond, and Jose's team outperformed us on the day (although we didn't do ourselves any favours by being absolutely woeful, back to front). Klopp's team generally dominated us, but we just about deserved the draw, and in Leicester's case a stupid individual mistake from Wanyama gifted them an equalizer and then we couldn't break them down afterwards.

 

[braineclipse]

I wouldn't actually class Bale as being that much better than Toby in terms of being a difference maker to us - Bale's goalscoring record is probably matched by the difference Toby makes when he's on the field versus when he isn't, as evidenced by our record with and without him. As I said, King-esque.

Disagree. There's a reason why attacking superstars go for more money. And goalscorers at just about every level go for more money. Their overall impact is greater.

Re: Dier, I don't think his work in the build-up's that good when he's put under pressure or is out of form (as the end of the season perhaps demonstrated) - but I suspect we'll disagree on that. Re: Son, yes, I think he closes down as much as Lamela does (space, not men) , and since pressing is integral to our style of play, that translates to playing (overall) at the same tempo. His passing and touches needed to control the ball demonstrate his undoubted slowness in those areas compared to Lamela, but his strengths (especially his runs in behind at pace) offset those disadvantages enough for him to be considered a quality replacement that we shouldn't really be struggling to fit into the side.

I don't think Dier's work in the build-up is much to write home about or be particularly happy about. For me it's bordering on what shouldn't be thought acceptable for a club our level. But it's significantly better than Wanyama's. And that difference is important I think, particularly as Dembele (who continues to be far from world class) is doesn't have his strengths in that area either.

I was talking about passing tempo. That's where the other 5 in our first choice "front 6" are lacking. All of them prefer the extra touch most of the time - Eriksen being the occasional exception. That passing tempo Lamela brings is thus very important for us.

 

[Modric THFC]

The difference today was central midfield. They had Carrick and Herrera both capable of passing and creating whenever they got it.
We had Wanyama and an increasingly unfit looking Dembele.
United just sat deep and waiting for the ball to disappear into the blackhole of our midfield and all our momentum to peter out as the ball went slowly sideways or backwards.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Absolutely, 100% completely disagree.

The slow, obvious low risk obvious pass is what the pressing team expects and wants. Someone good enough on the ball on the other hand can either through passing or dribbling (or a combination of the two) play their way through a level of pressure and expose the space the pressing team has left behind by pushing that many players forward. Midfielders who either let themselves get bypassed by the run of play or only plays the slow safe pass makes it a hell of a lot easier to press and makes it more likely to succeed.

It's a complex skill, but it's one we've seen players like Modric and Carrick execute with brilliance for us in the past. It's one we've seen players like Huddlestone and Bentaleb execute at a lower level, but still very well for us. It's one Wanyama doesn't even try and it makes us predictable and easier to play against.

How do you win the game of pressing and possession if your preferred move is the move the opponent expects you to play and wants you to play?

I'll give you the likes of Modric have the ability and nous to outwit intense pressure to create chances on the ball but the fact remains its a lot easier to achieve penetration against the likes of Swansea (one single attempt on our goal compared to 28 by us on theirs) than it is against the top teams. That was my main point and it still stands. Not too many are able to outwit a master tactician as astute as Mourinho when he puts his mind to it.

 

[Pirate55]

Well our rivals are better this season than last so surely the fact we are having better results shows improvement

And we lost to Leicester at home last season not drew so we have improved

although we got one more point against Leicester at home , we got one less point against chelsea away, so our results against rivals have been identical and not good enough.

 

[paxtonwolf]

A "calm" Mauricio Pochettino says he is pleased with Tottenham Hotspur's performance despite a 1-0 defeat by Manchester United at Old Trafford

He is f'ckin joking surely. If he is pleased by that, then we are going nowhere, fast. And I would suggest he is the wrong job. That was a performance that was far from pleasing in my eyes and if he is happy with that, then we have the wrong man for the job.

I appreciate he isnt going to come out and say we played sh#t or similar, but to say he was pleased is b#llocks

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The difference today was central midfield. They had Carrick and Herrera both capable of passing and creating whenever they got it.
We had Wanyama and an increasingly unfit looking Dembele.
United just sat deep and waiting for the ball to disappear into the blackhole of our midfield and all our momentum to peter out as the ball went slowly sideways or backwards.

Wouldn't disagree with any of this

 

[braineclipse]

I'll give you the likes of Modric have the ability and nous to outwit intense pressure to create chances on the ball but the fact remains its a lot easier to achieve penetration against the likes of Swansea (one single attempt on our goal compared to 28 by us on theirs) than it is against the top teams. That was my main point and it still stands. Not too many are able to outwit a master tactician as astute as Mourinho when he puts his mind to it.

And it remains my point that I think it's surprising you thought I wasn't aware that it's easier to achieve penetration against Swansea than United.

 

[Yermiyahu]

How does losing against money doped clubs with quality players and coaches when we are not a money doped club equal that our head coach got out-thought?

I'm high on pain killers following surgery. Ignore me dude. I wont make any sense until about Wednesday

 

[markysimmo]

It was AVB like, we're just too negative when we don't need to be

United are nervous as hell and not in good form, we should've been at them from the first kick, but no pass pass pass pass back kick nothing

and as for Wayanama missing that, wow, how

Sissoko was a big positive though but it was a big game on a big stage so he obviously fancied it

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Today was very, very disappointing. But I'm not convinced it was as calamitous as seems to be being suggested here.

 

[Spursman]

Usual story. Lots of the ball. No end product. Poor crossing. Nothing created.

 

[Spur of the moment]

And it remains my point that I think it's surprising you thought I wasn't aware that it's easier to achieve penetration against Swansea than United.

You said 'People go on and on about our front 4. But they showed against Swansea and CSKA what they can do if given the ball in a bit of time and space.'
Against today's United? Whatever it is you are on I would like a bit of it.

 

[the dza]

As long as we win our home games, we will pick up enough points on the road to challenge imo. We must win these next two home games though.

 

[braineclipse]

You said 'People go on and on about our front 4. But they showed against Swansea and CSKA what they can do if given the ball in a bit of time and space.'
Against today's United? Whatever it is you are on I would like a bit of it.

There is time and space there to be exploited. We're just not capable of doing that often enough. We did occasionally find Alli, Son and Eriksen in a bit of space around the box. We did find Sissoko with some good passes. We did occasionally manage to put Walker and Rose in some space. We just didn't do it often enough.

Doing that often against good hard working well organized teams is more difficult. But it's possible given quality in central midfield. Quality we sadly lack.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Disagree. There's a reason why attacking superstars go for more money. And goalscorers at just about every level go for more money. Their overall impact is greater.

Or just more noticeable/marketable. There's a reason that 'attack wins you games, defenders win you titles' homily is still around.

I don't think Dier's work in the build-up is much to write home about or be particularly happy about. For me it's bordering on what shouldn't be thought acceptable for a club our level. But it's significantly better than Wanyama's. And that difference is important I think, particularly as Dembele (who continues to be far from world class) is doesn't have his strengths in that area either.

I was talking about passing tempo. That's where the other 5 in our first choice "front 6" are lacking. All of them prefer the extra touch most of the time - Eriksen being the occasional exception. That passing tempo Lamela brings is thus very important for us.

Well, the thing is, Wanyama might not distribute it forward particularly well, but what he does do is hold on to it quite effectively when he does get it. Pressing him is less likely to result in a turnover than Dier, at least imo - he can't get it forward with any speed, but I'd argue that the fact of him being difficult to dispossess (when paired with Dembele's similar ability) actually forces the oppo back a few yards, forcing them to press the players further forward instead. Bit of a double-edged sword, of course - but then, so is Dier's superior forward passing/movement in the build-up, which leaves him more prone to being dispossessed early in the play because of his (imo) inferior ability to shield the ball when compared to Wanyama.

I don't know, perhaps it's just a preference thing. But personally, a comment I saw somewhere on (I think) ESPN earlier is still ringing unpleasantly with me - the commenter basically said that the key to easily beating pressing teams is to let them have the ball while in prepared defensive positions ahead of them, because they have no idea what to do with it in possession. Their strength lies in the quick transition between defense and attack, which opens up space to counter into - take that away and they're toothless and feeble, easy to beat since they can in turn be pressed and attacked when the ball is turned over while in the process of being endlessly recycled from left to right or back to front. This, the commenter said, is the eternal truth when facing pressing-based systems.

It's not a new opinion, but it was unpleasant to be reminded of it while looking at our recent struggles.

As for Lamela, yeah, I get your point there - passing wise, he's faster than all of our other attacking midfielders, frighteningly so. *Sometimes*. Other times, he's as bad as they are.

 

[SUIYHA]

I wouldn't actually class Bale as being that much better than Toby in terms of being a difference maker to us - Bale's goalscoring record is probably matched by the difference Toby makes when he's on the field versus when he isn't, as evidenced by our record with and without him. As I said, King-esque.

Ah, but we're not talking about the rewards you get for finishing 4th or 5th, we're talking about whether places or points are a better measure of performance over a season. You can play better and get more points but finish lower in a competitive season than you perhaps can in a less competitive one - does that mean the latter team performed better than the former did, in objective terms?

As for AVB, I never said he did 'brilliantly' in the time leading up to his sacking - but he wasn't exactly leading us into the relegation zone by any means. He had 27 points from 16 games (8 wins, 3 draws, 5 losses) when he was sacked (the 16th of December, after the mid-week game - the third anniversary of his sacking's coming up on Friday). He had gotten us into the EL round of 32 having won all six group games. He had gotten us into the quarterfinal of the League Cup. We were eight points off the top.

Mauricio Pochettino has 27 points from 15 games heading into the midweek game, having secured a 2-1-3 record in the CL group that got us into the EL round of 32, and having been knocked out of the League Cup in the first round. We are currently ten points off the top.

If we'd been spanked 6-0 by Emirates Marketing Project and then dingdonged on 5-0 at home by Liverpool and 3-0 at home by an awful West Ham side, whilst only managing to win games by grinding them out in one goal wins and very unconvincing performances supported by dodgy penalties and long range screamers from nothing, then yeah, I'd be getting worried about Poch too.

I've always found goal difference to be quite a good indicator as to whether a team's position in the league is false or not. If it's higher than you'd expect, it implies that they're good at ripping teams to shreds on their day and avoiding heavy defeats, but have sometimes drawn too many games when they're off their game. Whereas if it's lower than you'd expect, it implies that the team has managed to grind out a few lucky results to elevate their position but are prone to getting spanked when the opposition figures out their game plan. I'll remind you that AVB's goal difference when he was sacked at this stage of the season was -6, Poch's now is +13. I'd be surprised if we've had a goal difference much higher than that at this stage of a season - I know that we're already on our highest points tally at this stage bar the amazing start we made in 2011-12.

I'm not pretending things are perfect. Today's performance was very frustrating from an attacking sense. Kane, Alli and Son were so so poor today. But please, a bit of perspective everybody. This was MANCHESTER UNITED AWAY. When have we ever beaten Mourinho at home? Not many teams do. Even less now that Mkhitaryan has come into the side and is in form (why he wasn't playing him before baffles me). It's almost as if some of you actually expected us to just turn up and tinkle all over them. To be making any comparisons between Pochettino and Andre Villas fudging Boas is quite frankly ridiculous, the guy was an utter clown.