Mauricio Pochettino

[MKSpur]

I did an analysis of Poch's career trajectory a while back, I think on this thread. TL;DR - Poch was on about year 8 or 9 of his professional managerial career when he was sacked. At that stage of his own career, Klopp had won nothing - he had been fairly successful at Mainz, much like Poch was at Southampton and Espanyol, and he was still rebuilding Dortmund - they didn't even make the CL in that time.

By contrast, by Year 9 of his own career, Poch was performing absolute miracles with us with no budget, no backing. He transformed us in a way that Klopp only managed much later in his own career.

I think Poch's career trajectory will surpass Klopp's. We'll see, but that's my belief - he's too good not to.

I think I do remember it and it was a good point, but it’s still a trajectory. I’m sure AVB was ahead of Mourinho after one year in management!

I’m not trying to devalue anything Poch as achieved thus far btw, nor making a case for not giving him cash to spend, but for me there is an open question about whether he does have a weakness on the recruitment side - which means his peak may come when aligned with a top sporting director and a big pot of cash.
I know the media love in with Liverpool is sickening right now but Klopp deserves all the plaudits he gets - he didn’t take over the biggest / richest team in either league that he’s won and by taking a few years to do so it’s clear that it was he built the team...and with Jordan Henderson as captain

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah, we're stuck with them for now, unfortunately. Until they get their massive profit and f*ck off, anyway. Maybe one day.

As I’ve said loads
I just can’t see it
Why would someone buy a club that’s gonna cost £bs unless their a fan with money to burn
If someone comes in and clears the debt we only gain £30/£40m a season which isn’t mega in reality, although would obviously help
The only way to buy a club like us and make money or not lose money is to keep us super competitive and add commercial revenue
To get competitive their is always squad investment needed and that costs ££ which eats into potential returns
I’ll say that at least with ENIC a their already well up on their return on investment

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think I do remember it and it was a good point, but it’s still a trajectory. I’m sure AVB was ahead of Mourinho after one year in management!

I’m not trying to devalue anything Poch as achieved thus far btw, nor making a case for not giving him cash to spend, but for me there is an open question about whether he does have a weakness on the recruitment side - which means his peak may come when aligned with a top sporting director and a big pot of cash.
I know the media love in with Liverpool is sickening right now but Klopp deserves all the plaudits he gets - he didn’t take over the biggest / richest team in either league that he’s won and by taking a few years to do so it’s clear that it was he built the team...and with Jordan Henderson as captain

But all bar one of the pool side was brought in and only 2 were bargains in Robertson and Milner (most cost close to records for their positions at the time)
Their squad is still IMO quite thin but they age by had to use it as players have stayed fit enough to fight for a place in a winning side

 

[thfcsteff]

I can’t behind this at all, bankrolling transfers with money not generated by the club is cheating.

I know a lot of clubs do it, but it’s wrong, and shouldn’t be used as a measure of success.

We are at risk of the same old loop discussions again. Backing does not always mean mega-wonga.

 

[Baleforce]

Well, I guess that's...consistent? So let me get this straight - you think we should disavow our titles from the 60s and 70s (our golden age, mind), because we spent a lot and probably beyond our means, and that's wrong? And you would prefer that we be run purely to minimize ENIC's involvement and on a revenue-neutral basis - that is what counts as right and moral in your eyes?

I mean, you're fully entitled to that opinion, but I think almost no one in football, out of all the billions who follow the sport, would agree with you. Almost every club has spent money they don't have at various points in their history, because...



...no one supports a business, mate. No one supports our balance sheets, no one wears ENIC flags to the stadium or cheers when our stock prices go up. We aren't a business, we never will be a business, and thank GHod football will never be about profits for the owners. It is, and will be, about dreams, about winning.

I've asked this question before, genuinely - if fans love that we are run like a business by skinflint owners with nothing to show for it for 25 years, and that's the moral way to do things....what prevents you, or anyone, from supporting the best-run business, instead of us? United earn tons of revenue, much more than us - if you're going by that model being moral, they are far more morally righteous than us, since they earn more than us while remaining a sustainable business. They're more righteous than us, because they're better at being a business. Surely it behooves people to support them over us?

As for ENIC, they owe us nothing, true. By that token, we owe them absolutely nothing either - they exist as faceless investment speculators. When they sell us with their well-deserved profits (which I pray will be soon), hopefully they will go down as a single footnote in our yearly accounts, because all they will have done is run the club semi-competently with our own money for 20-odd years. That's the flipside of being as uninvested as they are.

It's not about profit for the owners, it's about not running at a loss, it's about not spending money that hasn't been earned.

Competition should be decided by smarts and hard work, if it's just a matter of spending more money than the other team then why bother playing, just compare lines of credit and be done with it.

For all the success the new rich have had there is always an asterisks next to their name, another part of the story that won't be forgotten, where their money came from, and how the owners amassed such wealth.

I believe there is another way, and that we, under ENIC have come closer than any other organisation to proving it. I think that should be celebrated and encouraged.

 

[Baleforce]

We are at risk of the same old loop discussions again. Backing does not always mean mega-wonga.

What else are we going to do in lockdown?

Absolutely, and I'd argue ENIC have always backed our managers when deals could be done for a reasonable price. My point there is, we don't sign players we can't afford, and I'm totally behind that.

 

[thfcsteff]

A. I wasn’t around then, but if it was more than we could afford then it was wrong.

B. Let’s see what state they leave them in and how they make their money before we judge them.

I just can’t understand the attitude of entitlement that leads to fans demanding other people put their own money into football clubs when the chance of a return is so low, that is no way to run a business. It comes off as rude, ENIC don’t owe us anything.

There is no entitlement and I expect little beyond backing the manager. Poch was not especially a cheque-book manager, he wanted backing in other ways. Jose has typically been a cheque-book manager and requires backing in the way he works if we want to see any return from his appt (and AGAIN -as tired as I get of saying this, I don't like him but fully believe he should be FULLY backed by both club and the likes of me)!

I believe we made a long mistake based on several things;
Stadium investment
Taking things for granted
Losing Mitchell
Getting too clever in the market
Trying to get the top top money rather than moving deadweight on

It simply happened. I don't hate anyone for it at all.
But to deny it happened, to pretend it was all part of the plan and Poch simply lost it with no other factors?
No. No way.

 

[thfcsteff]

What else are we going to do in lockdown?

Absolutely, and I'd argue ENIC have always backed our managers when deals could be done for a reasonable price. My point there is, we don't sign players we can't afford, and I'm totally behind that.

Agreed. This fudging pandemic adds 20% to all conversations!!!!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I heard a pool fan earlier say they sold well and quoted Benteke and Carroll as examples....

 

[Baleforce]

There is no entitlement and I expect little beyond backing the manager. Poch was not especially a cheque-book manager, he wanted backing in other ways. Jose has typically been a cheque-book manager and requires backing in the way he works if we want to see any return from his appt (and AGAIN -as tired as I get of saying this, I don't like him but fully believe he should be FULLY backed by both club and the likes of me)!

I believe we made a long mistake based on several things;
Stadium investment
Taking things for granted
Losing Mitchell
Getting too clever in the market
Trying to get the top top money rather than moving deadweight on

It simply happened. I don't hate anyone for it at all.
But to deny it happened, to pretend it was all part of the plan and Poch simply lost it with no other factors?
No. No way.

I think it best to consider ourselves innocent bystanders, we're gonna watch it, can't take our eye's off of it, but we have no influence.

I agree the manager should be backed, but that is conditional, the manager has to keep up their side of it too, as innocent bystanders we only see what the club allow to leak to the public, we are rarely judging on reliable information.

- The stadium investment was essential imo, as were the training ground improvements.

- I'm not a fan of Mitchell, I don't think that was a loss at all, I think his recommendations were largely obvious and too late into the players development cycle.

- Can you expand on "getting too clever in the market", the only deal in recent times that I thought didn't make sense was Sissoko, and he's been brilliant.

- I agree we need to be harsher with getting people out the door, we've been a bit too nice.

I don't think I'm denying anything, we were in a good place, then we weren't, a lot of people made mistakes, some of them have gone, some are still with us, ultimately, the one person in the organisation I have the most faith in, is Levy.

 

[Baleforce]

I heard a pool fan earlier say they sold well and quoted Benteke and Carroll as examples....

ha, lets not forget the money laundering they were involved in with coutinho too

 

[Bedfordspurs]

ha, lets not forget the money laundering they were involved in with coutinho too

Thought at the time it was an amazing deal....
it’s scary when you look at the world biggest transfer fees and the list has Neymar at the top, Felix 3rd with the next 3 all being players who are “flops” at Barca... Coutinho, Griezzeman and Dembele... there’s a theme there me thinks

 

[DubaiSpur]

I think I do remember it and it was a good point, but it’s still a trajectory. I’m sure AVB was ahead of Mourinho after one year in management!

I’m not trying to devalue anything Poch as achieved thus far btw, nor making a case for not giving him cash to spend, but for me there is an open question about whether he does have a weakness on the recruitment side - which means his peak may come when aligned with a top sporting director and a big pot of cash.
I know the media love in with Liverpool is sickening right now but Klopp deserves all the plaudits he gets - he didn’t take over the biggest / richest team in either league that he’s won and by taking a few years to do so it’s clear that it was he built the team...and with Jordan Henderson as captain

Fair enough, mate. I'm not devaluing Klopp or Liverpool - they deserve their plaudits. But I just believe Poch will be better at the equivalent stage in his career than Klopp is - it's more belief in Poch than a lack of belief in Klopp, if that makes any sense.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Fair enough, mate. I'm not devaluing Klopp or Liverpool - they deserve their plaudits. But I just believe Poch will be better at the equivalent stage in his career than Klopp is - it's more belief in Poch than a lack of belief in Klopp, if that makes any sense.

I’m not convinced Poch will win much unless he has learned to distance himself from his players better.
I think he was trying more towards the end with the rumours that W stayed away from training for example
His handling of Danny Rose here being a case in point
He also needs to get one over the line and to do that you need luck too

 

[Legohamster]

Was Lo Celso really 28.8m? Amazing value if so.

Looking at that list I would say we’ve bought fairly well. Son is the outstanding buy from that lot so far, but Lo Celso for me could exceed him and Bergwijn is looking great value and still young. Sanchez was always a future buy and has shown what he could become, as is Sess who I think give a couple of seasons will begin to flourish. Moura has been decent enough to justify the money paid (the night in Ajax alone). Sissoko for me has been decent value all in all, almost always been available covering various positions during injury crisis and has been consistently last season or two a 7/10 in the process. Lamela probably expected more of, but wouldn’t say it was a bad buy. Soldado was obviously the stand out flop, but NDombele could rival that if he doesn’t show what he’s all about. Considering the difficulties and amount of risks involved with transfers I’d say we’ve done well, part of the reason we’ve performed above expectations.....

my error it was 7 - brain fart I forgot SB was in Jan - seasons all merged into a mess tbh.

so is the only one that’s been a success, Sissoko for 30 million and 90k you could have gotten better

Lo celso looks like he will be good m, but Dombele looks like a complete waste of time - I hope he proves me wrong

I’m really not a fan of Sanchez, he’s was to inconsistent and switches off a lot in games.

that list doesn’t include Janssen who was £20 million either.

It’s complete hit and miss - I guess my point is he’s (Recruitment team) been very average with the money he had to spend

 

[thfcsteff]

Answers in bold within quote mate...

I think it best to consider ourselves innocent bystanders, we're gonna watch it, can't take our eye's off of it, but we have no influence.

Wise words I occasionally remember hahahaha!

I agree the manager should be backed, but that is conditional, the manager has to keep up their side of it too, as innocent bystanders we only see what the club allow to leak to the public, we are rarely judging on reliable information.

A fair point. Everyone has their "ears" inside and I certainly had mine, but to your point, those ears largely hear whatever specific voices tell them.

- The stadium investment was essential imo, as were the training ground improvements.

Agreed.

- I'm not a fan of Mitchell, I don't think that was a loss at all, I think his recommendations were largely obvious and too late into the players development cycle.

Disagree, especially as he and Poch worked well together.

- Can you expand on "getting too clever in the market", the only deal in recent times that I thought didn't make sense was Sissoko, and he's been brilliant.

Without too much repeat-from-yore, several deals were delayed and delayed beyond the first chance to sign for there sake of a few quid. Poch always asked for signings at the start of pre-season. We lost some deals because our chairman thought he could out maneuver his counterparts, and we failed to move deadweight on because we wouldn't take anything less than top dollar. Good in one sense but not if the manager wants them gone.

- I agree we need to be harsher with getting people out the door, we've been a bit too nice.

I don't think I'm denying anything, we were in a good place, then we weren't, a lot of people made mistakes, some of them have gone, some are still with us, ultimately, the one person in the organisation I have the most faith in, is Levy.

A fair series of points mate. I think DL had the man and let him go. Maybe there was too much on DL's plate? For me, with hindsight the moment we had to remain at Wembley for most of that 18/19 season we were in trouble. It was not a happy thing.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m not convinced Poch will win much unless he has learned to distance himself from his players better.
I think he was trying more towards the end with the rumours that W stayed away from training for example
His handling of Danny Rose here being a case in point
He also needs to get one over the line and to do that you need luck too

A really interesting take. Food for thought there.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

A really interesting take. Food for thought there.

He did change his tact with players didn’t he
Hence why he also wanted filming of training
The guy was clearly IMO trying to develop a different style of coaching that way
I believe there are a few managers that don’t do any “training” and it works for them

 

[SpurMeUp]

I heard a pool fan earlier say they sold well and quoted Benteke and Carroll as examples....

And not Coutinho!? He was a big piece of their success giving them a massive cash injection.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And not Coutinho!? He was a big piece of their success giving them a massive cash injection.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Countinho was a given
But the two he mentioned were losses.... pool have made quite a few losses on big transfers but they get ignored and lately they have had much much more success in that area