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Vincent Janssen

Poch will make the call, no need for fans to speculate.

If he's showing all the right things in training, then as schedule allows, he hopefully will get game time, take a chance, get some confidence and kick on from there.

If he isn't, or we have concerns around his quality, Poch will move him on.
 
As with Memphis Depay you don't get 28 in 40 without having abit about you and I am sure I will get the "No one comes from Holland and succeeds talk" but you also don't go from being number one player with those stats and convert them in a role as a part time player.

Janssen got 27 in 34 as the number one man at AZ, so you can't compare his time at Spurs to AZ, even if you talk about the league standard.
 
Poch will make the call, no need for fans to speculate.
So I guess we shut down any speculation about things in all the threads? Or just in this thread? I'm sure that if that's the case many of us could still find ways to have forum-based fights with each other.
 
So I guess we shut down any speculation about things in all the threads? Or just in this thread? I'm sure that if that's the case many of us could still find ways to have forum-based fights with each other.

Just a comment mate, if a player is playing game in, game out, there is a lot for us to see and speculate and have opinion on.

My point specific to Janssen is we have seen so little of him recently, its hard to make comments on his future/capability/value to side that is anything other than speculation.

No need to worry, we will always have ways of proving our capability as keyboard warriors ..
 
You look at Rose and he was pretty much on last chance saloon with the odd left midfield slot until Poch worked him into the player he is today. Kane was in the same boat, he came into the side without any track record and we were lucky he literally burst into the player he is today, there is no doubting that after all his loans (most of them failed) had he not fired he would have been sent down the road. And lets not forget Bale, near hate figure for his LB/Spurs losing streak until Harry switched him up to LM and he had a break through season. You can make a list longer than a roll of toilet paper of players that take a season to settle. I trust Poch's judgement over my own as I know the best in my armchair where as he is paid millions to do the job day in day out. Even if our man Jannsen does not make it I don't think he gains much from his own fans adding to his woes at games. To give a slight slant of it all Llorente and Negredo all had stale starts to their club careers but are now firing and they have the benefit of playing week in week out as the number one's, patience is as they say a virtue!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Irony is that Batshuayi not signing was met with a huge level of uproar on here and credited to our old scout leaving, but it shows that a quiet start is not that unusual even when in the example of Batshuayi we were the supposed experts

I agree with the jist of your post, but this bit about Rose ain't right at all. He was first choice left-back under both AVB and Sherwood iirc. Didn't Kane start scoring pretty quickly too? Started games under Sherwood and the following season, kept banging them in in the cup games so Poch decided he'd earnt the chance to start league games.
 
Just a comment mate, if a player is playing game in, game out, there is a lot for us to see and speculate and have opinion on.

My point specific to Janssen is we have seen so little of him recently, its hard to make comments on his future/capability/value to side that is anything other than speculation.

No need to worry, we will always have ways of proving our capability as keyboard warriors ..
Understood, and a valid point. Sorry we couldn't start a ruck over this one. I do hope he comes good and I also think that his response to being subbed will go a long way to see if he does come good.
 
It'll be interesting to see what Pochettino does if we get a high-profile draw.

I think if we draw a top side, he'll start Kane. So would I, I suppose -- so I should have said, I'd start Janssen in the next cup game if it's against a team we'll rotate against.
 
I think if we draw a top side, he'll start Kane. So would I, I suppose -- so I should have said, I'd start Janssen in the next cup game if it's against a team we'll rotate against.

Wickham Wonders. He'll get slated if he doesn't score a hatrick!
 
Wickham Wonders. He'll get slated if he doesn't score a hatrick!

If he plays badly he'll get slated. He should be starting that game though, the rest is up to him. I think the next round is after the Emirates Marketing Project game, so he won't have to wait too long to get another chance.
 
Good draw, Poch definitely should give him the start. Hopefully with Georgeous and perhaps back 2 to help him get a bit more service.
 
Good draw, Poch definitely should give him the start. Hopefully with Georgeous and perhaps back 2 to help him get a bit more service.

Hopefully with more players committing forward, creating space and openings he'll slot away a couple. A lot of pressure on a young chap. He has to believe in his ability. You get the impression he doesn't, naturally a bit pessimistic. Always gets upset when he misses and gets too down over it. Poch has to build him up. Get him feeling strong and focused.
 
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I think the point about Kane starting off well etc deserves response - I think it's easier for young players from England to get their first major role and start well initially. They don't have to re-learn much, they have to simply do what they've been trained to do in terms of system, style of play etc. Particularly if it's a coach with a defined way of his team playing, and they are talented and suit that defined way. Kane, like Winks, can come in and perform pretty well pretty immediately. I think Winks has played better than Paulinho ever did for example. It doesn't necessarily mean Paulinho had no talent whatsoever, it just meant that in this team, at this club in this league, Winks has the circumstances to flourish.

Luckily, VJ isn't Paulinho. He speaks the language. He has Poch DNA in terms of work ethic. He's proven that he's got the mental capacity to come back from set backs in his past and perform. But he's also got to learn a new way of playing after being the focal point in a different team with different players in a different league for the last 2 years of his upswing. I bet if Shayon Harrison got VJ's games this season he probably would have scored more goals from open play. Does it mean that, long term, we weren't right to sign someone that more easily suits Poch's system and potentially has a higher ceiling, with a proven work rate and mental toughness? I would say that sometimes, players take a season to settle. There are so, so many examples now, particularly in this era of coaches with more defined team structures that take adjusting to, where players come back after being written off.

Previously a crap player was crap. Previously a foreigner failing to settle just failed to settle. But now, because even players that speak the language and don't have too much of a culture shock to contend with still have to learn a more defined system, they more than likely struggle early on if they have to re-learn previously ingrained habits. But they are also more likely to recover from bad starts than before, because of the fact that they are being coached well. Pavlyuchenko did better under Redknapp than Ramos probably because Harry gave him more freedom to just play, rather than worrying about systems and everything else as well adapting to living and playing in England, but we know the benefits of a defined system of play, and this is what has gotten us to where we are.

It is no surprise Wanyama has adapted quickest of our summer signings for example, because he knows the league, knows the language and knows what Poch requires. Sissoko took a little longer but I would say now is a functioning member of the squad and can be trusted. Knows the league, knows the language, needed to know Poch. Alderweireld, slotted right in for the same reasons. GKN, will take a little longer. Etc etc etc.

We're also keeping youngsters out of the team for longer because Poch needs to know he can trust them in the system, and is keeping them close so they can learn it well. Winks is old to just break through, but this trend will likely continue with managers with defined styles. Onamah we don't see much of but we now Poch rates. CCV could have played more and we know Poch loves him, but he's being used gradually. Conte, a similar manager to Poch in many respects, has kept his new striker out of the team even when he's had opportunities to play him, because he knows he can trust others to play the system better right now.

The above doesn't mean that Conte, or Poch, doesn't rate the players in question, it is simply taking more time for players to adapt because the requirements are higher, but the standard of football and coaching is now so high that players need to be held to higher standards. In an ideal world, Poch has said he wouldn't have played VJ as much as he had to in this first half of the season. He knows adapting is hard. But VJ will be fine. I'm really sure of it.
 
Understood, and a valid point. Sorry we couldn't start a ruck over this one. I do hope he comes good and I also think that his response to being subbed will go a long way to see if he does come good.
I think too much is being made of the sub. Poch does what he thinks is necessary to win a game in this case he was proved right. I can't think of any manager who keeps a player on during a competitive match because he is afraid of hurting their feelings. In the end every Spurs fan will want Janssen to do well not because we like Janssen but because it will be good for the team.
 
I agree to a certain extent but that is an idealistic view and not the experience of other players under poch who has shown himself to be quite ruthless. Fazio, Stambouli, and Njie failed to make a mark and were moved on quickly. Granted Njie might come back but Fazio's performances in defence were better than Janssen has been as a striker so far. He will be given a chance only if he can demonstrate he is worth that chance. He hasn't shown that with his performances yet imo. In any case there is an argument why should he be afforded until next season to show he can do it? He was signed for relatively big money to cover Kane this season.

That's true - Poch has dropped a lot of players without giving them more than a season to settle in. He's also kept others on (Lamela got more than just 14/15, no?), but his buys have tended to go straight back out if they're unable to hit the ground running.

However, I'm sure that's a decision Poch makes based on what he sees on the pitch and in training, which is presumably more than what most of us see on matchdays. From our perspective, though, writing players off for bad opening seasons isn't justified given that we've seen ourselves how much they sometimes struggle to adapt to this league. And the support we as fans can give them when they're struggling is definitely appreciated by those players at times - Soldado was a shining example of this. In a difficult time for him, both on and off the field (his wife suffered a miscarriage around that time), having his name reverberate around the ground even when he remained utterly hopeless at finishing in game after game meant something to him - something he's often alluded to in the years since, and something which I've taken to heart as a fan.

I talked for a long time about how football was different from a business, how it was more emotional, more inelastic and more tribal than a cold business proposition could ever be. I still do talk about it in those terms. Football is a sport, still imbued deep, deep down with that childlike sense of innocence and wonder that we all once had as kids - and a sport that shouldn't be run on cold business logic that is alien to the fundamentals that it was founded on.

But I realised at a point last season that I was being more than a bit hypocritical when it came to this view - I shouted about football not being a pure business, but expected so much of the players that were taking to the field each matchday, and was happy to write them off at the start of their careers or bin them after just a season or so if they hadn't delivered for us. I viewed them as assets to be switched around and ruthlessly disposed of if they couldn't benefit the parent company. And I realised that I couldn't reconcile holding that viewpoint with the somewhat naive view of football that I was simultaneously holding.

Footballers are human beings, good people for the most part who come from backgrounds much like our own and who often don't deserve the stick they get for failing to perform in the most competitive leagues in the world. I recognise that it's a results-oriented profession at the end of the day, and that it is more and more becoming the business that I firmly believe it to be fundamentally antithetical to. And I want trophies and success for Spurs as much as anyone, which entails hard decisions sometimes.

But as fans, we saw with Soldado that a bit of patience and support goes a long way to helping these players form bonds with the club they're playing for, and that their hard work being recognised (even if it doesn't lead to them performing) does touch them, even if they don't say so in as many words. The least we can do (and this is what I've tried to do, more or less) is at least extend the period during which we give them some slack for failing to perform. If the manager still bins them, fine, not like we have input into those decisions. But as fans, we can cut them some slack for a while, encourage them, and give them support if they're failing to fire straight away. At least for a season. And especially given that the players we buy now (and Janssen certainly fits that bill) are mostly young, hardworking, level-headed and respectful lads - we don't suffer characters or big-time Charlies anymore. So where's the harm in holding off on our expectations during their initial spells?
 
So I guess we shut down any speculation about things in all the threads? Or just in this thread? I'm sure that if that's the case many of us could still find ways to have forum-based fights with each other.

It's a discussion forum, a place that is only of interest because people are prepared to voice opinions, yet the thought police want to censor comment. Anything that contradicts the majority is frowned upon in some quarters. You have to agree with certain people. Might as well pass a rule that comments can only be posted after certain types have vetted them as being suitable, ie politically correct, thou shalt not criticise Lamela, or Janssen. I really wonder about the ages of some people on here because fanboydom and hero worship are so in evidence.
 
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It's a discussion forum, a place that is only of interest because people are prepared to voice opinions, yet the thought police want to censor comment. Anything that contradicts the majority is frowned upon in some quarters. You have to agree with certain people. Might as well pass a rule that comments can only be posted after certain types have vetted them as being suitable, ie politically correct, thou shalt not criticise Lamela, or Janssen. I really wonder about the ages of some people on here because fanboydom and hero worship are so in evidence.

The only person who ultimately decides what can and can't be posted here is Scara (and the mods). I think you're being utterly unfair on them. There's nothing even close to a thought police on here.

When you voice opinions the majority disagrees with there will be a lot of people disagreeing. Such is life when you choose to voice your opinion.

There's a huge difference between censorship and having to deal with people disagreeing with you. Speaking of wondering about the ages of some people I think most people old enough to drink should manage to separate the two.
 
The only person who ultimately decides what can and can't be posted here is Scara (and the mods). I think you're being utterly unfair on them. There's nothing even close to a thought police on here.

When you voice opinions the majority disagrees with there will be a lot of people disagreeing. Such is life when you choose to voice your opinion.

There's a huge difference between censorship and having to deal with people disagreeing with you. Speaking of wondering about the ages of some people I think most people old enough to drink should manage to separate the two.
I can't speak for Gilzean but it didn't appear to me that he was having a go at the mods but rather replying to a specific poster about other posters. But you are right this is a very good discussion board and has made me a lot less bad tempered than I would have been if I didn't have this outlet for my Spurs related frustration.
 
The only person who ultimately decides what can and can't be posted here is Scara (and the mods). I think you're being utterly unfair on them. There's nothing even close to a thought police on here.

When you voice opinions the majority disagrees with there will be a lot of people disagreeing. Such is life when you choose to voice your opinion.

There's a huge difference between censorship and having to deal with people disagreeing with you. Speaking of wondering about the ages of some people I think most people old enough to drink should manage to separate the two.

It's a from of censorship because your not being criticized about the comments regarding the player, but rather that you are criticizing them at all. The crappy sarcy comment at the end of your post being fairly typical of what I'm referring to. Not that it bothers me, as I couldn't care less, but it might dissuade more sensitive souls from posting.
 
The only person who ultimately decides what can and can't be posted here is Scara (and the mods). I think you're being utterly unfair on them. There's nothing even close to a thought police on here.

When you voice opinions the majority disagrees with there will be a lot of people disagreeing. Such is life when you choose to voice your opinion.

There's a huge difference between censorship and having to deal with people disagreeing with you. Speaking of wondering about the ages of some people I think most people old enough to drink should manage to separate the two.

P.S. I have no problem with Scara. For all his faults, he has never applied the gag to someone who airs a view he personally disagrees with, this is particularly so in Randomnation.
 
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