Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Raziel]

I think slightly differently, but not trying to suggest my thought process is any more correct than yours:

1) A lot of managers won't want to leave mid season so it might be a case of having to wait for whoever we want anyway

2) I think giving a manger a whole season is a fairer amount of time

3) Kind of continuation of 2), a lot of 'middle' clubs are now stronger, and those ones not in Europe are challenging more. We are likely out of Europe February/March time. Then Frank will have far more full weeks to work with the squad and also see if we can get closer/overtake those middling clubs who are performing better without any European football as we will then be in the same position. A decent couple of months form towards end of the season, a season of no European football and more work with the squad and things could really take shape, who knows

This season is likely a write off anyway, if things get too toxic or genuine relegation concerns come into play then of course it's a different conversation. But I don't see the need to think about pushing the button yet personally....

Two big problems there

- Nobody cares about being fair, managers (like players) get paid a lot of money because it isn't fair, it's about results.
- If the club or Frank believe we can't even get Europa next season, he should go now.

It is still close enough that a good run (with some January reinforcements) could get us 6th/7th.

 

[Raziel]

The club is in a negative place because the last manager was popular especially after winning a trophy. There was a large section of the fan base who did not agree with his sacking and, unless the replacement was someone like Poch they were always going to be hard to convince of its validity. The fact that it was the "manager of Brentford" who in many eyes had done little in his career other than stabilise the aforementioned Brentford, made the decision even more incomprehensible. Then some fans want to see free flowing attacking football from the outset of a manager's tenure, irrespective of what options the manager has. So, if TF did not get us competing successfully and quickly he was going to struggle to get buy in.

However, I still believe he could be the right man, if we are patient. Even if we are dragged into a relegation scrap, and I don't think we will be, he knows what it takes to deal with that successfully. He manages the squad of players so well between games that we have not yet seen the level of injuries we saw at this time last season. That's part of the big picture that I think is important.

Tbf to Frank, there is in the minds of many, no allowances for injuries, because they have convinced themselves that this season's squad is better than last despite the fact that 3 key first teamers have been out for the season and continue to be out for the foreseeable meaning they will not make any significant contribution for an entire season. People's minds have become set and they either can't or are unwilling to change their minds.

TF has lost Xavi, the best passer in the team, for the next 3 games and has to negotiate where the creative element is going to come from. In a team that is clearly suffering from a shortage of confidence. I see a lot of hesitancy in the players ATM; Fear of making a mistake. So if he is going to be judged over the next 3 games then he may be doomed.

But tbh I find it extraordinary that some fans were talking about him being the wrong man for the job before we had even reached December of his first season and we are now contemplating his sacking (albeit a small number!)

There is understandable negativity after any loss but blimey, patience is not virtue that most football fans seem to have in abundance. I always find it best to avoid the forum during a game and after a loss.

The club is in a toxic pace because the last 18 months of results have been the terrible, not Spurs fan's usual drama/overreaction but actually the worse home results in a calendar year in our history, add to that, everyone's favorite target for abuse (Levy) is gone, so the manager is way open to more abuse.

I think the reason fans see him as the wrong man already is because it's 25+ games in and what is he trying to do? are we a possession side? are we a pressing side? low/mid block, counter attack? where is the progression pattern, triangles? to give someone a chance, you have to see something that says "well, if that clicks, I can see how it would work" there is nothing like that from Frank. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but Ange/Conte as examples, you knew what they were trying to do, would it work, did we have the quality of players? different conversation. When people say we don't have the right quality of player for Frank, to do what? everyone thinks we need a LW, why? he played Bergvall/Xavi out there when we have 6 other options, so is it width/pace/ability to beat a man?

And I completely disagree with we should be willing to back him even if in a relegation scrap? why? we haven't been in a relegation scrap (outside this current run) in 15+ years, why is it acceptable now?

 

[harr1984]

Two big problems there

- Nobody cares about being fair, managers (like players) get paid a lot of money because it isn't fair, it's about results.
- If the club or Frank believe we can't even get Europa next season, he should go now.

It is still close enough that a good run (with some January reinforcements) could get us 6th/7th.

Perhaps fair is the wrong word then, but no team gets in Europe every year so why should it be the be all and end all if we don't? Look, I've been critical of our performances this season and it must improve that is of no doubt. But history will tell you a good set of results for a manager for first few months of the season doesn't equate to the next 12-18months being good, just as a poor first few months doesn't equate to the futures' results being bad. It can still go either way, and our club does have a lot going on at the moment and we are as much in a period of transition now as we ever were.

So for me, unless we properly get dragged into a relegation battle (we are closer to 5th than the relegation places) then I say give him breathing space and let's see where we are at the end of the season.

You think differently, fine - but it's not an exact science so neither of us know what is truly the right thing to do that best serves us for future seasons. We are one point off Saudi Sportswashing Machine with a game in hand who just like us are playing in the CL at the moment and I don't see them calling for Howes' head, so I'm not sure why we should be doing the same with the guy who is just starting his journey here...

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Perhaps fair is the wrong word then, but no team gets in Europe every year so why should it be the be all and end all if we don't? Look, I've been critical of our performances this season and it must improve that is of no doubt. But history will tell you a good set of results for a manager for first few months of the season doesn't equate to the next 12-18months being good, just as a poor first few months doesn't equate to the futures' results being bad. It can still go either way, and our club does have a lot going on at the moment and we are as much in a period of transition now as we ever were.

So for me, unless we properly get dragged into a relegation battle (we are closer to 5th than the relegation places) then I say give him breathing space and let's see where we are at the end of the season.

You think differently, fine - but it's not an exact science so neither of us know what is truly the right thing to do that best serves us for future seasons. We are one point off Saudi Sportswashing Machine with a game in hand who just like us are playing in the CL at the moment and I don't see them calling for Howes' head, so I'm not sure why we should be doing the same with the guy who is just starting his journey here...

Lot of talk about Glasner in this thread and I wonder how many people recall how many wins Palace had in December of his first full season?

 

[Robspur12]

I think the reason fans see him as the wrong man already is because it's 25+ games in and what is he trying to do? are we a possession side? are we a pressing side? low/mid block, counter attack? where is the progression pattern, triangles? to give someone a chance, you have to see something that says "well, if that clicks, I can see how it would work" there is nothing like that from Frank.

With respect to the average football fan not just Spurs fans, I don't think they are thinking in those complex terms at all. But rather are we winning or losing and is the football pleasing on the eye. It was pretty clear what Nuno's and Jose's styles were and they failed to engage most fans. I think you are mistaking your concerns for that of average fans.

And I completely disagree with we should be willing to back him even if in a relegation scrap? why? we haven't been in a relegation scrap (outside this current run) in 15+ years, why is it acceptable now?

I don't think I said that or if I did, it's not what I meant. In any case, I don't think we will be so it's a moot point. But if our League position falls so that we are fighting for our PL lives and not even as low as last season plus he appears clueless to stop it, then of course he should go. He is ultimately accountable for our results. I don't believe in putting artificial timescales on a manager, such as "give him a season no matter what."

But I think he has enough experience that we will avoid being in a relegation fight even if we flirt with the lower half of the table.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Something I’ve been thinking about, in terms of why has the football been so bad early in Frank’s tenure, is that there’s probably no other way to imbue the principles he wants in the squad, other than to play initially reactive football where preparation is especially focused on the opposition.

I was one of the people earlier on who was thinking ‘we have better players than Brentford, so he can be more proactive earlier’ but thinking more about it, if you don’t go through a period of games where you’re trying to put into practice what he wants, we’d never build the foundation. So playing Bentancur and Palinha together at home to Wolves obviously leads to a really bad result. But perhaps it’s a necessary step to go through. If he went into games like that with a ‘we’ll score more than them’ approach, we probably would have won the game but wouldn’t have put his principles in place.

With that in mind I think it’s interesting that it takes about ten games at his previous clubs before those players started to get it. Here it’s a bit different because we have CL games, higher quality players and more demands on results generally. But one of the reasons I am fairly optimistic about the second half of the season is because I think the initial part of the season was a deliberate process. Very defensive selections, very risk averse pass maps. Very deliberate slowing of tempo and intensity even with the opportunity on to counter (which he is enforcing from the touchline).

I think it’s all about teaching the players control the tempo and adjust in the right moments. And it likely takes some getting used to. But there’s no other way around getting there than to go through a really hard period to build that foundation. If he was ultra proactive first and tried to get these principles in later, I think it would have been harder.

Think you’re overthinking it. He was trying to win the game v Wolves. If he was risking the result to “put in foundations”, he’s a macaron. He’s in a results business. Your theory also wouldn’t explain why he started Bergvall and Gray against Burnley for instance.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Think you’re overthinking it. He was trying to win the game v Wolves. If he was risking the result to “put in foundations”, he’s a macaron. He’s in a results business. Your theory also wouldn’t explain why he started Bergvall and Gray against Burnley for instance.

I’m sure he’s tried to win every game, but my point is how you go about it. The way we played against Brentford or against Slavia with Djed inverted and a high tempo is very different to that Wolves game, where we kept on playing a very basic and rigid form of football.

I don’t think I am over thinking it. I think he’s tried to implement foundations early on, rather than go too creative or too high intensity in winnable matches. And I would say in the last few weeks I’ve seen the green shoots, both in terms of him being willing to be more creative in the shape he sets out, and the players being able to raise their intensity at the right moments. I think it would have been harder to start off with high tempo, creative shape type stuff is the intention was to build a culture and a way of working. It meant we didn’t get the Wolves result but that’s what being in the early part of the cycle means sometimes.

 

[thfcsteff]

Lot of talk about Glasner in this thread and I wonder how many people recall how many wins Palace had in December of his first full season?

I think he's a really good manager. I don't want to play like that.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m sure he’s tried to win every game, but my point is how you go about it. The way we played against Brentford or against Slavia with Djed inverted and a high tempo is very different to that Wolves game, where we kept on playing a very basic and rigid form of football.

I don’t think I am over thinking it. I think he’s tried to implement foundations early on, rather than go too creative or too high intensity in winnable matches. And I would say in the last few weeks I’ve seen the green shoots, both in terms of him being willing to be more creative in the shape he sets out, and the players being able to raise their intensity at the right moments. I think it would have been harder to start off with high tempo, creative shape type stuff is the intention was to build a culture and a way of working. It meant we didn’t get the Wolves result but that’s what being in the early part of the cycle means sometimes.

To add to your point, I think we need to accept that Frank is a reactive manager. everything we do, even in preparation, is reactive. We set up primarily to negate the better aspects of the oppostion before looking at how we can win. Impressing our style on them is not (it seems) his way. He himself says that 'every game is different' when asked about style. He's telling everyone what he believes, and in doing so, making it easier for people to either agree with him or not.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

To add to your point, I think we need to accept that Frank is a reactive manager. everything we do, even in preparation, is reactive. We set up primarily to negate the better aspects of the oppostion before looking at how we can win. Impressing our style on them is not (it seems) his way. He himself says that 'every game is different' when asked about style. He's telling everyone what he believes, and in doing so, making it easier for people to either agree with him or not.

Agreed with that.

As with any managerial appointment, I’ve always thought we need *something* different, if we aren’t going to have the most money. It could be a way of playing that’s ahead of the direction of the league like Poch, it could be highly rehearsed like Conte, it could be extreme like Ange.

But maybe it’s what Frank is doing. I have no doubt it’s reactive, and it’s not going to be to everyone’s taste. The theory is we will out perform our station like Brentford outperformed theirs. Will it work…I have no idea. But this is what it is.

 

[Finney Is Back]

This is disingenuous in that i'm certain you wouldn't give Frank that "the other team had a week to prepare" excuse even though he is in his FIRST season in the job AND having to navigate the league and a much tougher European competition.

The less said about you excusing a loss against a promoted team who were yet to win in the league at that time or a Palace team who were also yet to win, the better for saving my breath.

Not like i'm particularly pro-Frank, but your inconsistency in appraisal is reeking loud and clear

I absolutely will give Frank that excuse, even though he started the season with a bigger, more experienced squad than Ange did. Unlike many on here I realise how much of an advantage it is for teams that have a clear week to prepare for game compared to teams that have to play midweek.

Luckily, we had a full 8 days to prepare for the Palace game yesterday, whereas they had to play 3 games in a week. IMO our performance yesterday was even worse than most pundits are claiming when considering that fact. It was only really in the very last period of the game when we were able to out compete Palace despite them being more fatigued than us.

I'm reasonably up front with the fact that I'm not particularly impressed with Frank's management so far and I have been thoroughly bored by the football he has us playing. However, I'm not calling for his head and haven't called for his head once. We can't keep on sacking managers all of the time, especially when there is so little continuity planning at Spurs on the first team football side of things. Though I fully expect to see Frank sacked in April/May at the point it is clear that we'll finish the season trophyless and out of the European places.

I just find it interesting that there were a whole bunch of outspoken people on here last season saying that we had a great squad (some were even laughably calling it a top 4 squad) and that the only problem was the manager and that just about any other manager would have us back in those top 6 places. Those people now seem to have a rather different view.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I just find it interesting that there were a whole bunch of outspoken people on here last season saying that we had a great squad (some were even laughably calling it a top 4 squad) and that the only problem was the manager and that just about any other manager would have us back in those top 6 places. Those people now seem to have a rather different view.

Its context though isn't it. Not having Son, Solanke, Madders or Deki makes the available squad now alot worse than last season. Kudus does not make up all those losses and the patchwork with some last minute loans doesn't either. Xavi is a good signing of intent but he isn't prem proven to the level Madders has been.

I also think other clubs have done a better job of joined up thinking in the summer in terms of squad development in their managers vision which puts us back, thats neither Ange or Franks fault, just a reality of another summer where we make weird squad choices as a club.

There is also the argument that 18 months in a manager should be able to manage the squad better than coming out the trap and being 4 months into your work.

My expectations on Frank will be massively high year two as it would any manager given time to cultivate a team in his own vision

That's not an outrageous view IMO

 

[Finney Is Back]

We had to give both managers time. After 1.5 years with Ange there were too many small issues he wasn’t addressing. Things like how we didn’t contest throw ins etc. But I’m glad we kept him on and won a trophy, and then replaced him. He’ll go down as a success.

To write Frank off after half a season is stupid. Furthermore all this nonsense about cowardly play is just gonads. Personally I see Frank addressing problems from previous games all the time and being pragmatic. Which he’s proven at, and why we hired him. I’d much prefer a manager who’s on a path forward and will incrementally improve the side rather than dazzle crash and burn. We’re still repairing the mess from the last manager. We broke a lot of key players with a crude school-yard press tactic. Frank on the other hand will use a press when needed, so the players won’t drop like flies and will be able to build long term.

I've not seen any real pressing from us yet under Frank, well certainly not a coherent press anyway. When I was watching the Chelsea v Aston Villa game a few days ago I couldn't help but admire Chelsea's press, it was really high, intense and well drilled. The way that Aston Villa were able to play through it in the second half was even more impressive, some really brilliant stuff. Must say that I really enjoyed the second half of that game, really high quality football played.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Its context though isn't it. Not having Son, Solanke, Madders or Deki makes the available squad now alot worse than last season. Kudus does not make up all those losses and the patchwork with some last minute loans doesn't either.

I also think other clubs have done a better job of joined up thinking in the summer in terms of squad development in their managers vision which puts us back, thats neither Ange or Franks fault, just a reality of another summer where we make weird squad choices as a club.

There is also the argument that 18 months in a manager should be able to manage the squad better than coming out the trap and being 4 months into your work.

My expectations on Frank will be massively high year two as it would any manager given time to cultivate a team in his own vision

That's not an outrageous view IMO

I can only assume the manager was part of the decision to sell Son (a player that a whole heap of people on here were saying was already finished last season and didn't start in the Europa League final). We also had lots of injuries last season, I'd say FAR worse injury problems than we've had this season so far. If we want to make excuses for this manager then surely we also had to make those same excuses for the previous manager?

Regarding joined up thinking in terms of squad development, we've not really done much of that for years and years.

If Frank doesn't get us into Europe this season then I don't think he'll get a season two mate. He certainly wouldn't have under the previous CEO, though perhaps the new head honcho's are cut from different cloth?

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

You can sense the Peterson Podcasters firing up now with "well he ain't going to call him crap is he"

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I can only assume the manager was part of the decision to sell Son (a player that a whole heap of people on here were saying was already finished last season and didn't start in the Europa League final). We also had lots of injuries last season, I'd say FAR worse injury problems than we've had this season so far. If we want to make excuses for this manager then surely we also had to make those same excuses for the previous manager?

Regarding joined up thinking in terms of squad development, we've not really done much of that for years and years.

If Frank doesn't get us into Europe this season then I don't think he'll get a season two mate. He certainly wouldn't have under the previous CEO, though perhaps the new head honcho's are cut from different cloth?

Maybe he was naive to believe we would have a development plan without Son, all managers end up learning that lesson the hard way as the next will also when it comes to squad development.

 

[lurker of old]

Though I fully expect to see Frank sacked in April/May at the point it is clear that we'll finish the season trophyless and out of the European places.

I don't. I think Vinai will end the managerial merry go round and give him a chance. Why on earth not? The manager can only do so much, it's about the players...

 

[thfcsteff]

Seeing as we’re back at Ange v Frank again (LOL), I think it is worth pointing out that Ange came into a bigger mess with bigger needs. No Kane (and not really knowing it until deadline day), undoing the Conte/Stellini mess of the previous season, moving away from mid-level bloated squad players into a new direction; that was a lot of work. Frank himself came in saying ‘we stand on the shoulders of others’ and spoke loudly about ‘building on the foundations Ange built’, yet here we are and it’s apparently now going to take a long time to and people need to know there’s no ‘quick fix’, we’re apparently ‘not really a CL club’, and so on and so forth.
It’s two messages.
The only thing I can conclude is that despite all the homework Frank will have done, he simply did not understand what he was stepping into.

 

[billyiddo]

Maybe he was naive to believe we would have a development plan without Son, all managers end up learning that lesson the hard way as the next will also when it comes to squad development.

I doubt Frank had any say in the Son matter - he was quite clearly off for something new having won the trophy

 

[Raziel]

I can only assume the manager was part of the decision to sell Son (a player that a whole heap of people on here were saying was already finished last season and didn't start in the Europa League final). We also had lots of injuries last season, I'd say FAR worse injury problems than we've had this season so far. If we want to make excuses for this manager then surely we also had to make those same excuses for the previous manager?

Regarding joined up thinking in terms of squad development, we've not really done much of that for years and years.

If Frank doesn't get us into Europe this season then I don't think he'll get a season two mate. He certainly wouldn't have under the previous CEO, though perhaps the new head honcho's are cut from different cloth?

Nor should he, assuming he will get one or two incoming in Jan, and at least Deki will be back this season, 7th with this squad is about par (and still poor in the historical view of last 20 years).

Frank is in same boat as Ange, lots of sympathy for if this squad is top 4 (hint, probably isn't) but that sympathy fades pretty quicky when playing absolute trash and sitting in bottom half of table.

He's got a run of winnable games in January, I'd argue it is his last chance to turn it around.