Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Raziel]

I think slightly differently, but not trying to suggest my thought process is any more correct than yours:

1) A lot of managers won't want to leave mid season so it might be a case of having to wait for whoever we want anyway

2) I think giving a manger a whole season is a fairer amount of time

3) Kind of continuation of 2), a lot of 'middle' clubs are now stronger, and those ones not in Europe are challenging more. We are likely out of Europe February/March time. Then Frank will have far more full weeks to work with the squad and also see if we can get closer/overtake those middling clubs who are performing better without any European football as we will then be in the same position. A decent couple of months form towards end of the season, a season of no European football and more work with the squad and things could really take shape, who knows

This season is likely a write off anyway, if things get too toxic or genuine relegation concerns come into play then of course it's a different conversation. But I don't see the need to think about pushing the button yet personally....

Two big problems there

- Nobody cares about being fair, managers (like players) get paid a lot of money because it isn't fair, it's about results.
- If the club or Frank believe we can't even get Europa next season, he should go now.

It is still close enough that a good run (with some January reinforcements) could get us 6th/7th.

 

[Raziel]

The club is in a negative place because the last manager was popular especially after winning a trophy. There was a large section of the fan base who did not agree with his sacking and, unless the replacement was someone like Poch they were always going to be hard to convince of its validity. The fact that it was the "manager of Brentford" who in many eyes had done little in his career other than stabilise the aforementioned Brentford, made the decision even more incomprehensible. Then some fans want to see free flowing attacking football from the outset of a manager's tenure, irrespective of what options the manager has. So, if TF did not get us competing successfully and quickly he was going to struggle to get buy in.

However, I still believe he could be the right man, if we are patient. Even if we are dragged into a relegation scrap, and I don't think we will be, he knows what it takes to deal with that successfully. He manages the squad of players so well between games that we have not yet seen the level of injuries we saw at this time last season. That's part of the big picture that I think is important.

Tbf to Frank, there is in the minds of many, no allowances for injuries, because they have convinced themselves that this season's squad is better than last despite the fact that 3 key first teamers have been out for the season and continue to be out for the foreseeable meaning they will not make any significant contribution for an entire season. People's minds have become set and they either can't or are unwilling to change their minds.

TF has lost Xavi, the best passer in the team, for the next 3 games and has to negotiate where the creative element is going to come from. In a team that is clearly suffering from a shortage of confidence. I see a lot of hesitancy in the players ATM; Fear of making a mistake. So if he is going to be judged over the next 3 games then he may be doomed.

But tbh I find it extraordinary that some fans were talking about him being the wrong man for the job before we had even reached December of his first season and we are now contemplating his sacking (albeit a small number!)

There is understandable negativity after any loss but blimey, patience is not virtue that most football fans seem to have in abundance. I always find it best to avoid the forum during a game and after a loss.

The club is in a toxic pace because the last 18 months of results have been the terrible, not Spurs fan's usual drama/overreaction but actually the worse home results in a calendar year in our history, add to that, everyone's favorite target for abuse (Levy) is gone, so the manager is way open to more abuse.

I think the reason fans see him as the wrong man already is because it's 25+ games in and what is he trying to do? are we a possession side? are we a pressing side? low/mid block, counter attack? where is the progression pattern, triangles? to give someone a chance, you have to see something that says "well, if that clicks, I can see how it would work" there is nothing like that from Frank. Again, not to beat a dead horse, but Ange/Conte as examples, you knew what they were trying to do, would it work, did we have the quality of players? different conversation. When people say we don't have the right quality of player for Frank, to do what? everyone thinks we need a LW, why? he played Bergvall/Xavi out there when we have 6 other options, so is it width/pace/ability to beat a man?

And I completely disagree with we should be willing to back him even if in a relegation scrap? why? we haven't been in a relegation scrap (outside this current run) in 15+ years, why is it acceptable now?

 

[harr1984]

Two big problems there

- Nobody cares about being fair, managers (like players) get paid a lot of money because it isn't fair, it's about results.
- If the club or Frank believe we can't even get Europa next season, he should go now.

It is still close enough that a good run (with some January reinforcements) could get us 6th/7th.

Perhaps fair is the wrong word then, but no team gets in Europe every year so why should it be the be all and end all if we don't? Look, I've been critical of our performances this season and it must improve that is of no doubt. But history will tell you a good set of results for a manager for first few months of the season doesn't equate to the next 12-18months being good, just as a poor first few months doesn't equate to the futures' results being bad. It can still go either way, and our club does have a lot going on at the moment and we are as much in a period of transition now as we ever were.

So for me, unless we properly get dragged into a relegation battle (we are closer to 5th than the relegation places) then I say give him breathing space and let's see where we are at the end of the season.

You think differently, fine - but it's not an exact science so neither of us know what is truly the right thing to do that best serves us for future seasons. We are one point off Saudi Sportswashing Machine with a game in hand who just like us are playing in the CL at the moment and I don't see them calling for Howes' head, so I'm not sure why we should be doing the same with the guy who is just starting his journey here...

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Perhaps fair is the wrong word then, but no team gets in Europe every year so why should it be the be all and end all if we don't? Look, I've been critical of our performances this season and it must improve that is of no doubt. But history will tell you a good set of results for a manager for first few months of the season doesn't equate to the next 12-18months being good, just as a poor first few months doesn't equate to the futures' results being bad. It can still go either way, and our club does have a lot going on at the moment and we are as much in a period of transition now as we ever were.

So for me, unless we properly get dragged into a relegation battle (we are closer to 5th than the relegation places) then I say give him breathing space and let's see where we are at the end of the season.

You think differently, fine - but it's not an exact science so neither of us know what is truly the right thing to do that best serves us for future seasons. We are one point off Saudi Sportswashing Machine with a game in hand who just like us are playing in the CL at the moment and I don't see them calling for Howes' head, so I'm not sure why we should be doing the same with the guy who is just starting his journey here...

Lot of talk about Glasner in this thread and I wonder how many people recall how many wins Palace had in December of his first full season?

 

[Robspur12]

I think the reason fans see him as the wrong man already is because it's 25+ games in and what is he trying to do? are we a possession side? are we a pressing side? low/mid block, counter attack? where is the progression pattern, triangles? to give someone a chance, you have to see something that says "well, if that clicks, I can see how it would work" there is nothing like that from Frank.

With respect to the average football fan not just Spurs fans, I don't think they are thinking in those complex terms at all. But rather are we winning or losing and is the football pleasing on the eye. It was pretty clear what Nuno's and Jose's styles were and they failed to engage most fans. I think you are mistaking your concerns for that of average fans.

And I completely disagree with we should be willing to back him even if in a relegation scrap? why? we haven't been in a relegation scrap (outside this current run) in 15+ years, why is it acceptable now?

I don't think I said that or if I did, it's not what I meant. In any case, I don't think we will be so it's a moot point. But if our League position falls so that we are fighting for our PL lives and not even as low as last season plus he appears clueless to stop it, then of course he should go. He is ultimately accountable for our results. I don't believe in putting artificial timescales on a manager, such as "give him a season no matter what."

But I think he has enough experience that we will avoid being in a relegation fight even if we flirt with the lower half of the table.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Something I’ve been thinking about, in terms of why has the football been so bad early in Frank’s tenure, is that there’s probably no other way to imbue the principles he wants in the squad, other than to play initially reactive football where preparation is especially focused on the opposition.

I was one of the people earlier on who was thinking ‘we have better players than Brentford, so he can be more proactive earlier’ but thinking more about it, if you don’t go through a period of games where you’re trying to put into practice what he wants, we’d never build the foundation. So playing Bentancur and Palinha together at home to Wolves obviously leads to a really bad result. But perhaps it’s a necessary step to go through. If he went into games like that with a ‘we’ll score more than them’ approach, we probably would have won the game but wouldn’t have put his principles in place.

With that in mind I think it’s interesting that it takes about ten games at his previous clubs before those players started to get it. Here it’s a bit different because we have CL games, higher quality players and more demands on results generally. But one of the reasons I am fairly optimistic about the second half of the season is because I think the initial part of the season was a deliberate process. Very defensive selections, very risk averse pass maps. Very deliberate slowing of tempo and intensity even with the opportunity on to counter (which he is enforcing from the touchline).

I think it’s all about teaching the players control the tempo and adjust in the right moments. And it likely takes some getting used to. But there’s no other way around getting there than to go through a really hard period to build that foundation. If he was ultra proactive first and tried to get these principles in later, I think it would have been harder.

Think you’re overthinking it. He was trying to win the game v Wolves. If he was risking the result to “put in foundations”, he’s a macaron. He’s in a results business. Your theory also wouldn’t explain why he started Bergvall and Gray against Burnley for instance.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Think you’re overthinking it. He was trying to win the game v Wolves. If he was risking the result to “put in foundations”, he’s a macaron. He’s in a results business. Your theory also wouldn’t explain why he started Bergvall and Gray against Burnley for instance.

I’m sure he’s tried to win every game, but my point is how you go about it. The way we played against Brentford or against Slavia with Djed inverted and a high tempo is very different to that Wolves game, where we kept on playing a very basic and rigid form of football.

I don’t think I am over thinking it. I think he’s tried to implement foundations early on, rather than go too creative or too high intensity in winnable matches. And I would say in the last few weeks I’ve seen the green shoots, both in terms of him being willing to be more creative in the shape he sets out, and the players being able to raise their intensity at the right moments. I think it would have been harder to start off with high tempo, creative shape type stuff is the intention was to build a culture and a way of working. It meant we didn’t get the Wolves result but that’s what being in the early part of the cycle means sometimes.