Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Mabspurs]

I definitely feel for him too.

But that does raise the question of how good of a fit is he for this job. How much of his success at Brentford was down to him and how much was down to the circumstances around him.

He's clearly a good manager. But we need a manager that's suited for our circumstances.

And what "circumstances" are these? A history of perpetual underacheivement? A single trophy in 17 years? Expecting champagne football with a crate of Lidl players? Or one where the opposing manager starts his half time talk when 2-0 down with: "Lads... it's Tottenham!!"

 

[billyiddo]

So Arsenal take branded paper cups with them to away stadiums

Bournemouth don't clear left over waste from the away teams facilities over a period of days

Tottenham staff just use any old cup that's laying around

 

[Lemonade Money]

For three years we repeatedly scoped this player. As I understand it, the annual unsettling of him tinkled Parrish off. We'd flirt but never actually look close to paying the money. This past summer he was on the list again and TF reportedly said he'd rather others as he was reportedly concerned about Eze's workrate off the ball. Truth be told, it bears out that this could well be true given how we are currently playing; Eze would've been wasted.
We blew opportunities to simply pay the asking price and move on, Parrish decided to play games back, and yes, as you said, once the goons made a formal offer at the release price, it was a done deal because Eze (if given a choice) was always going there.

We lord the fact that Paratici develops a few transfers, so that when it comes to the crunch, the transfer committee has the pick, and a backup is ready to go if the first choice fudges up. Right there you have a wake of unsettled players - that's just the football business.

 

[veryoldspur]

TF is not responsible for the lack of quality and depth in the squad. As the saying goes, you cannot make a silk purse out of sow's ears.

Long term injuries to our top players doesn't help but of the rest too many need upgrading - Vicario, Porro, Bentancur, Bissouma, Simons, Odobert, Richarlison, Kolo Muani to name the more obvious ones. Not sure I have confidence in the club to find adequate replacements though, but even if they do, it's likely to take a couple of seasons minimum.

Agree regarding Vic, Porro, Biss, and Muani, however Odebert can be good, Xavi can be good, and with a decent mid field Richi will get us goals. Add to that two very good centre halves, some promising youth, and when Kulu and Maddison come back we have a decent spine. Of course, we need more players, and it's disgusting we haven't signed any yet this window. The fact is our performances are worse than our team, and there is only one reason for that

 

[glorygloryeze]

So Arsenal take branded paper cups with them to away stadiums

Bournemouth don't clear left over waste from the away teams facilities over a period of days

Tottenham staff just use any old cup that's laying around

All a bit silly really eh. It could even have been one of Vinay's old cups.
If we'd won yesterday it'd be a non-story. Feel sorry for Frank he's looking more and more out of his depth though "Gooner cup-gate" is the least of his issues....

If he had the balls to actually drop one or two under performers for the Villa and even West Ham games he might get some respect back and possibly people fighting tooth and nail to play Dortmund....oh well..

 

[Mabspurs]

Agree regarding Vic, Porro, Biss, and Muani, however Odebert can be good, Xavi can be good, and with a decent mid field Richi will get us goals. Add to that two very good centre halves, some promising youth, and when Kulu and Maddison come back we have a decent spine. Of course, we need more players, and it's disgusting we haven't signed any yet this window. The fact is our performances are worse than our team, and there is only one reason for that

Talk about an agenda.

You mention two players who can be good (but have showed no evidence of that yet), two injured players who have not played for TF, promising youth, a two good centre backs... and then all the blame on the manager as the ONLY reason for our performances!!!

I mean.... seriously???

 

[glasgowspur]

We're back to the 90s again, albeit with more competent players minus the real stars we had back then. At the time, you entered every season thinking that if Anderton and King could stay injury free, if Ginola could add some end product to his game, if Sheringham kept scoring, maybe we could qualify for Europe. Then, a few months later, you were stuck watching Andy Sinton, Ruel Fox and Stuart Nethercott run the show.

These days, we don't even have difference-makers. Just average players, with a couple of guys who could turn out to be good players in a few years' time.

Regardless of Frank's future, once again, we're faced with a massive mentality issue. In the 90s, when a manager was sacked, you read about players saying 'We have to hold our hand up and admit we're responsible'. And then... nothing. Just more of the same. Like him or not, Mourinho didn't take brick from the players, he demanded commitment from them. When he was sacked, Kane and Son (our only world-class players at the time, coincidentally) were the only ones to express their disappointment.

Then we moved on to Conte, who also demanded commitment and ended up blowing a gasket in front of the press.

None of them were blameless and their style of football left a lot to be desired but you can't argue that they are/were elite managers. Nobody in their right mind would compare them to Postecoglou or Frank.

Likewise, Pochettino turned things around when he oversaw a significant power shift inside the changing room.

At the end of the day, you can hire the best managers but if the mentality's not right, it won't make a difference. The club culture is completely wrong and so far, nobody's been able to address that. We thought winning a trophy would shake things up but it didn't. We can argue for ages about the quality of the squad, whether it's good enough for Top 6, Top 10, Top whatever but when we sign players from other clubs, clubs that are supposed to be weaker but somehow end up above us in the table, suddenly, their worst traits come out (Bissouma and Ndombele say hello).

A complete overhaul of a squad requires either a lot of investment and faith in the manager (won't happen) or extreme circumstances that forces someone's hand. So far, we've had neither.

Jose was on a downward spiral by the time he came to us, he saw an opportunity to take a fading side, reinvigorate it and win a trophy, boosting his own stock again.
He underestimated how much the squad was on the brink of collapse.
Conte was never properly backed Imv, wasted appointment. His abrasive manner and his tactics were not a great fit for this club.
The two managers who actually understood the club, started to turn it around and brought some semblance of success were sacked.
Elite managers need elite backing, as a club we are not elite, what we need is a suitable manager, and what he'll need is time and investment.

 

[glasgowspur]

Romero and vdv are fine as individuals, they are not a great partnership in my eyes.
Jan and Toby were good individually but complimented each other and elevated the partnership.

 

[Bishop]

You can't claim that I "superfluously" described Romero and VdV as excellent and then bucket Jan, Toby and Ledley with Baresi and Maldini under the same heading. Baresi and Maldini were two of the best to do it in the history of the game. Between them they won 13 Serie A titles (at a time when that was the elite league in the world) and 8 Champions League titles and were the cornerstones of arguably the greatest defence ever seen.

Toby, Jan and Ledley between them won 5 Dutch titles and no Champions Leagues. Outside of the Tottenham fan base, no one would mention Toby and Jan as even one of the great partnerships of the Premier League era. Ledley, a wonderful player, sadly never fulfilled his potential because of injuries. That's not to say that they weren't excellent players in their own right but if you're going to criticise the use of language as superfluous, you can't go ahead and group all those lads together with Baresi and Maldini.

As for Romero and VdV, it's hard to judge them because, as long as they've been here, we've been a dysfunctional brickshow. Probably the only real period of stability Romero had was when Conte was in charge at the end of his first season. In that spell, we conceded something like 8 in 14 games (albeit Romero missed the last 3) and he looked excellent. After that, he's been excellent at times and very rash at other times. For me, some of that is on the player and his suspect temperament but he's operating in a very unstable environment which doesn't help. Arguably the greatest player ever to play the game describes Romero as the best defender in the world. Now, some of that will be hyperbole because they're mates but he's not sticking his neck on the line like that for a lad who is "decent or at a push good". He just isn't.

I said from the minute VdV came in that he had limitations but, in the context of this Premier League, I think he's an excellent player. His recovery pace is a valuable asset and, for me, he'd get into most teams in the league without doubt - including some of the top 6 (as would Romero).

The other thing I'd say about them is that they had the balls, mentality and nous to approach Ange about how best to win the Europa League and were trusted by Ange to implement that plan on the pitch. Not only that, they executed their vision perfectly (even if it was ugly on the eye). That suggests to me that they are more than "decent or at a push good".

The best thing about our squad at the moment is the CBs and I think you'll hear most pundits say exactly that. They are being failed by the club and we'll only realise it when they are gone.

I'll be honest I struggle to even call Jan and Toby excellent. I just accept that because many Tottenham fans would call them that and I felt I was avoiding an arguement there. . I'd actually only label them as very good, we tend to massively overrated our players.

The current pair are another example of this. They are decent, excellent is wildly overrating them.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I dont think Franks the main issue here but if VV wants to lead in his own vision then IMO he needs to clear the decks and place his own structure and maybe that includes Frank going.

The talk about this super City bloke coming in seems to have cooled.

Im not sure having the Fab rumours hanging over us help things in an active window either.

What a mess

We're probably worried that we can't afford him in the Championship!

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Jose was on a downward spiral by the time he came to us, he saw an opportunity to take a fading side, reinvigorate it and win a trophy, boosting his own stock again.
He underestimated how much the squad was on the brink of collapse.
Conte was never properly backed Imv, wasted appointment. His abrasive manner and his tactics were not a great fit for this club.
The two managers who actually understood the club, started to turn it around and brought some semblance of success were sacked.
Elite managers need elite backing, as a club we are not elite, what we need is a suitable manager, and what he'll need is time and investment.

I'd argue that by the time Pochettino was sacked, our status within the game was ambiguous. If you only looked at the results, we were an elite club: qualifying consistently for the CL, reaching the final, being invited to the Super League or whatever the name was... You had to look at the more intricate runnings of the club to spot the quirks and all the things that were completely amateurish compared to our performances on the pitch (the infamous transfer window without a signing and, as @DubaiSpur rightly said, the constant downgrading of the squad).

From that point of view, hiring 'elite' managers made sense but I do believe that in order to reach a certain level, you have to hold yourself up to certain standards and by the time Mourinho came in (again, I'm not arguing his time was up but he did have that culture of top level performance - proof of that is that his tenure at ManUre was slightly more successful because the club still retained some of that mentality, at least at the time), most of our players knew they'd never reach that level and saw no point in making the sacrifices he demanded.

It was even worse with Conte and although you can't be pleased with the way he washed his dirty laundry in public, I believe he was right. Bar maybe from Romero, these players are happy with their lot. They won a major trophy last season. None of them talked about doing it again. As far as I can tell, it didn't move the needle one bit. I'm sure they like winning just like the next guy, but that's not what makes a great players. Great players hate losing.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Fair play to Frank to be honest. Throwing the league to go all in on winning the CL takes gonads

Especially as he already knows that it gets you the sack even if you win it!

 

[Mikey10]

How Thomas Frank watches Match of the Day.

Baffles me that someone can be bothered to waste their time creating this.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I'll be honest I struggle to even call Jan and Toby excellent. I just accept that because many Tottenham fans would call them that and I felt I was avoiding an arguement there. . I'd actually only label them as very good, we tend to massively overrated our players.

The current pair are another example of this. They are decent, excellent is wildly overrating them.

I’d say Toby and Jan were excellent, world class even for a couple of seasons. We had the best defensive record in the league for at least one of the seasons they played together.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I’d say Toby and Jan were excellent, world class even for a couple of seasons. We had the best defensive record in the league for at least one of the seasons they played together.

For two season, the back 4 was nearly unbreakable.

 

[billyiddo]

Toby & Jan - defenders who's strongest attributes were their defensive abilities, they had plenty more strings to their bow of course but first and foremost they could defend well.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

We're probably worried that we can't afford him in the Championship!

You are almost sounding excited about the prospect of relegation

 

[Finney Is Back]

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More evidence of what a cheap club we are.... Arsenal take their own logo'd cups to away games, we use whatever is given to us.

 

[Finney Is Back]

What genuinely surprises me is that, given the club absolutely knows about the whole ‘Tottenham Way’ thing, to the point that Levy commented on it, proving that it definitely isn’t something isolated to the fans or a weird internet obsession…why do we persist with these reactive pragmatic managers? I get the value of them, but the fact is that unless results follow the match going fans especially just will not tolerate much of it before turning. And that hastens a toxic atmosphere, PR nightmares, and it is clearly stressing the players.

Both Paratici and Lange now, other than Ange which was seemingly a special case in order to unify the club after the Conte season, seem to want pragmatic, reactive football. Is it just what they want, or is it some great foresight on the way the PL is moving and trying to be on trend?

Is it just impossible to be on trend and be more proactive today? Or are they just not really bothered about the ‘traditions’ of the club? I’m someone that less demands proactive football as such, as long as I can see a plan of any sort, but purely from an alignment perspective across boardroom, coaches, players and fans, I don’t fully understand why decisions kept being made that lock one and potentially two of those constituencies out of the equation.

Because they don't actually give a brick about it. They just say it to pay lip service and try to curry some favour with the fans.

 

[Eriktheviking]

Agree regarding Vic, Porro, Biss, and Muani, however Odebert can be good, Xavi can be good, and with a decent mid field Richi will get us goals. Add to that two very good centre halves, some promising youth, and when Kulu and Maddison come back we have a decent spine. Of course, we need more players, and it's disgusting we haven't signed any yet this window. The fact is our performances are worse than our team, and there is only one reason for that

Many of our players can be good on their day but how often is that? Better to rate players on their average performances which ours are way below expectations. Better to have players 7/10 every week than 9/10 two weeks and then 4 or 5/10 for the next 5 weeks.