The Overlap - some interesting comments from Ange

[Robspur12]

I just wish I could get past the fact so many people seem to want to f uck this achievement off, and refuse to give the manager any credit. In fact, I am seeing that the latest ‘Ange line’ involves him being somewhat ‘responsible’ for our current situation! Incredible!

From what I'm reading Steff, people aren't doing that. They are grateful for the win while at the same time acknowledging the context of it, and arguing against the notion that Ange suddenly made us into "winners." Add to that the incongruence of 2 years of poor league form which started with Ange (and not just with TF) I'm not surprised we are where we are.

 

[thfcsteff]

From what I'm reading Steff, people aren't doing that. They are grateful for the win while at the same time acknowledging the context of it, and arguing against the notion that Ange suddenly made us into "winners." Add to that the incongruence of 2 years of poor league form which started with Ange (and not just with TF) I'm not surprised we are where we are.

OK mate…I had a long reply written, but I realised I’m done with this thread TBH because it has become pointless IMO…if that’s what you see, then who am I to argue? No-one. But I will sign off by saying he did ‘suddenly’ make us into ‘winners’ because we rather unbelievably won the Europa League trophy. That’s not an opinion, it is a fact.

 

[SteveAWOL]

From what I'm reading Steff, people aren't doing that. They are grateful for the win while at the same time acknowledging the context of it, and arguing against the notion that Ange suddenly made us into "winners." Add to that the incongruence of 2 years of poor league form which started with Ange (and not just with TF) I'm not surprised we are where we are.

Yup, an elite manager knows that the league campaign should be their primary focus and if they can keep the team winning most weeks then picking up some silverware should be the corollary of that.

Hence why, despite not actually winning any trophies, Pochettino will continue to be held in higher regard than Postecoglou or Ramos even though each gave us a memorable cup win.

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[billyiddo]

If you're gonna credit Ange with making us winners you have to credit him for taking us to the wrong end of the table - this season is a case in point as to why many of us were so focused on the '17th' of last season - we were dragged to the bottom four, haven't been able to get ourselves out of it and are now staring relegation in the face.

 

[Bishop]

Ok….I’m not sure how else to say it. There is every chance we could have won that tournament anyway. But after the season we had, with a broken down squad, to arrive in that final believing we were going to win, against a club synonymous with winning…I think Ange had something to do with that. The fact that he knew to double down on ‘I always win things in my second year’ is Jose in his prime sort of stuff. The players absolutely bought into that. The sheer arrogance of it. When have Tottenham ever had arrogance about winning things in the last 40 years? I think we needed it.

I think it’s easy to say now that we’ve won it that we probably were always going to win it. But to win that final without our 2 key creative players and Bergval, having easily swept Bodo aside like it was nothing, when they’ve proved how good a side they are in the CL this year…having gone to Frankfurt including Ekitike needing a win and winning…we have been knocked out to worse teams with their manager being in prison. At so many times we might have not progressed.

I do find it quite strange for a club to be a laughing stock for not winning things to actually win something and then all of sudden it was sort of an easy thing to do. In another world, the pressure on us in that final to win the game because without it we had no Europe and the season being a waste would have seen our players wilt. But they didn’t. They believed they were going to win, and they did it. We hadn’t had actual belief that we were going to get over the line in a long time.

No other final have we played a team as abject as United were last season. We beat them FIVE times last year, FIVE! They were a dog brick opposition, why you are not taking that into account is confusing me.

You can only beat what's in front of your and what was in front of us was horse brick. So yes maybe if Poch had played that quality of United he would have also beaten them.

The quality of the opposition you play is way more of a factor than the coach believing in himself that he can win.

I'm not saying this too belittle the win in itself, just that for some reason you're forgetting who we actually played and holding it up as if we conquered a superior opposition, United were bloody worse than we were last season.

 

[Finney Is Back]

He had Kulu right up and until the final, Maddison was available until the end of April. Neither of whom were ever available to TF btw. He had Bentancur available too. Every manager treads water with their best players. That's how it is. But they still set out to win their league games. Point is though he didn't even try to adapt his tactics in the league to the extent that he did in the EL. The conclusion was, he didn't care. And that is the start of the awful league form we have just seen continue.

Not true. We beat both Man Utd and Brentford in the PL playing defensive, counter attacking football. Those wins basically guaranteed our PL position the following year and we (management and players) then clearly prioritised the Europa.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yup, it was roundly derided as El Crappico for a reason and the fact that Postecoglou didn't have enough confidence in his philosophy to play proper Ange-ball in the biggest game of his career but instead resorted to parking the bus like a past-it Mourinho epitomised his tenure after that glorious 10 game honeymoon.

Thank feck for Luke Shaw helping to get us over the line and breaking our trophyless streak but the fact that both managers from EL final didn’t even last half a season after that says it all about how low quality a competition it now is compared to the old UEFA Cup format, when only domestic title winners got to play in the European Cup.

Ruben Amorim, Ange Postecoglou and the death of the pragmatic manager

When a manager's philosophy becomes all-consuming, weaknesses can end up masquerading as strengths

www.nytimes.com

Burkinshaw’s boys had to beat the likes of Bayern Munich to win in 1984, can only imagine how our side from last season would’ve fared against an actual top team of that calibre

Spurs stories | Mark Falco's late, late strike to sink Bayern Munich on our way to UEFA Cup glory in 1984 | Tottenham Hotspur

Mark Falco recalls his late, late winner against Bayern Munich in 1983, on our way to UEFA Cup glory in 1984.

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

It’s a fallacy that he played the whole game parking the bus. We actually started with quite a high line. We dropped off and played deeper after going one up and we eventually settled into a low block as the game progressed in the second half.

 

[Robspur12]

Not true. We beat both Man Utd and Brentford in the PL playing defensive, counter attacking football. Those wins basically guaranteed our PL position the following year and we (management and players) then clearly prioritised the Europa.

So why didn't he do that for the rest of the games? It was as if he had given up on the league?

 

[Kane]

I see the league as a manager's day job, that's what ultimately they will be assessed against, it was for Ange and it was for Frank. I love a cup win, but I accept it's a combination of luck, skill, circumstance and the draw that combines to get you to win one.
Being a good league team bleeds into getting deeper in the cups, as we've seen there is little bleed from being a cup team into being a good league team.

And our history might suggest similar? Since 1962 we've won a few cups here and there but none of those propelled us to win the league.

 

[tommysvr]

 

[NoLimits01]

So I guess you love this manager as much?

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

So why didn't he do that for the rest of the games? It was as if he had given up on the league?

He has said that if he completely changed their principles in the league it would have stored up issues down the line. Would have maybe gotten more points in the short term but the players would have questioned needing to be brave when we were back to having a normal squad. He was trying to think long term, to still give us something of a differentiated platform.

 

[NoLimits01]

Sure, that’s the reason, yep, makes perfect sense

 

[tommysvr]

So I guess you love this manager as much?

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No, not every situation is exactly the same. It’s quite incredible people can’t see that and constantly make these ridiculous comparisons.

 

[billyiddo]

He has said that if he completely changed their principles in the league it would have stored up issues down the line. Would have maybe gotten more points in the short term but the players would have questioned needing to be brave when we were back to having a normal squad. He was trying to think long term, to still give us something of a differentiated platform.

Does that not illustrate the problem? We would have persisted with a style of football that was not working, despite needing to abandon it to ensure survival in the league and to navigate the EL knockouts and eventually win the trophy. That says to me there would have been no change coming in to this season, we would have continued down the same path that took us where we ended up last season.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

So I guess you love this manager as much?

View attachment 21779

Trophy or no trophy, posting a photo of the man in the raincoat is sailing perilously close to the wind.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Yup, an elite manager knows that the league campaign should be their primary focus and if they can keep the team winning most weeks then picking up some silverware should be the corollary of that.

Hence why, despite not actually winning any trophies, Pochettino will continue to be held in higher regard than Postecoglou or Ramos even though each gave us a memorable cup win.

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Ok but, if hypothetically a manager suffers a historic, unprecedented injury crisis including all of his centre backs, and barely has 11 fit players to put out while dealing with a game every 3 days, leading to a league campaign unfortunately becoming pointless in that season, then could you understand why that hypothetical manager might do everything to win the one trophy still on offer to them in that season, to show the players it was all worth it, rather than try and spread their bets so they could get back into 12th position or whatever it might be?

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Does that not illustrate the problem? We would have persisted with a style of football that was not working, despite needing to abandon it to ensure survival in the league and to navigate the EL knockouts and eventually win the trophy. That says to me there would have been no change coming in to this season, we would have continued down the same path that took us where we ended up last season.

I don’t think it’s a problem because with a deeper squad and less injuries his style would have worked better. As it did when we got 5th, and as it did up to the City 4-0 before the injuries really started to bite.

 

[Robspur12]

He has said that if he completely changed their principles in the league it would have stored up issues down the line. Would have maybe gotten more points in the short term but the players would have questioned needing to be brave when we were back to having a normal squad. He was trying to think long term, to still give us something of a differentiated platform.

I really appreciate your efforts, as always to engage in a respectful manner. Thank you for that. I'm coming off this treadmill now though. Just need to focus on is not being relegated!!

 

[billyiddo]

I don’t think it’s a problem because with a deeper squad and less injuries his style would have worked better. As it did when we got 5th, and as it did up to the City 4-0 before the injuries really started to bite.

Why would there have been less injuries? Despite a less rigorous style of play this season we have continued to pick them up at an alarming rate - chuck in the additional sprints his style demanded and I'd expect we'd be at the same level.

The thought of navigating 2 games a week from the outset without the benefit of being able to fully rotate during the group stages of Europe gives me a cold sweat - we'd have been cooked by Christmas