Politics, politics, politics

[r-u-s-x]

The options should be between May's agreement and WTO - the choice against what we already have was made ages ago.

no informed vote imo - people are stupid, they thought we would walk a deal - we did not and now they know whats on offer. It seems more democratic to me to have another informed vote. I would have transferable voting as well in order to not split the votes.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

All Cameron wanted was an upcoming referendum to take to the EU and get some fairly minimal concessions in order to block it off. He wouldn't be the first and certainly won't be the last person to massively underestimate the arrogance of the EU. For their part, they clearly thought that we would never get near a leave vote because everything's perfect in the people's socialist utopia of Eurasia.

I think he was only ever a half hearted attempt on his part, all pantomime. That they treated him with such contempt is a seperate and significant issue too.

 

[r-u-s-x]

All Cameron wanted was an upcoming referendum to take to the EU and get some fairly minimal concessions in order to block it off. He wouldn't be the first and certainly won't be the last person to massively underestimate the arrogance of the EU. For their part, they clearly thought that we would never get near a leave vote because everything's perfect in the people's socialist utopia of Eurasia.

he brick himself from Milliband - that's the truth of it, he thought he would lose to Milliband and offered the referendum in order to get some of his UKIPERS back. What a feeble man.

 

[Gutter Boy]

he brick himself from Milliband - that's the truth of it, he thought he would lose to Milliband and offered the referendum in order to get some of his UKIPERS back. What a feeble man.

History could well judge him as being of great foresight - enabling us to jump clear before the EU became completely moribund.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

History could well judge him as being of great foresight - enabling us to jump clear before the EU became completely moribund.

Leaving was never his agenda, so history would be a fool.

 

[r-u-s-x]

History could well judge him as being of great foresight - enabling us to jump clear before the EU became completely moribund.

Whats your timeline for your social / political revolution? Just want to know when to come back with a look at what you wished for.

 

[scaramanga]

no informed vote imo - people are stupid, they thought we would walk a deal - we did not and now they know whats on offer. It seems more democratic to me to have another informed vote. I would have transferable voting as well in order to not split the votes.

If we were taking stupid options off the table when voting we could just remove a Corbyn-fronted Labour from the ballot. But people are stupid and sometimes they want to vote for stupid stuff.

 

[r-u-s-x]

If we were taking stupid options off the table when voting we could just remove a Corbyn-fronted Labour from the ballot. But people are stupid and sometimes they want to vote for stupid stuff.

You don't have Tory or "Another" on the ballot with another being anything from Monster raving Loony party to Nazi's. People can now have an informed vote.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Leaving was never his agenda, so history would be a fool.

Maybe he'll claim credit one day in some revisionist memoirs

 

[scaramanga]

You don't have Tory or "Another" on the ballot with another being anything from Monster raving Loony party to Nazi's. People can now have an informed vote.

no informed vote imo - people are stupid, they thought we would walk a deal - we did not and now they know whats on offer. It seems more democratic to me to have another informed vote. I would have transferable voting as well in order to not split the votes.

I sincerely doubt the people voting for Corbyn would be voting for him to ruin the country but he quite clearly would. You can't redo votes you don't like because the people voting didn't understand what they were voting for.

If you want to propose a system where the votes of the more educated, business leaders, economists, etc. hold more sway than those of the great unwashed, I'm with you.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I sincerely doubt the people voting for Corbyn would be voting for him to ruin the country but he quite clearly would. You can't redo votes you don't like because the people voting didn't understand what they were voting for.

If you want to propose a system where the votes of the more educated, business leaders, economists, etc. hold more sway than those of the great unwashed, I'm with you.

It wasn't they didn't understand, it was there was no way to know, this BREXIT bears no resemblance to the one you predicted at the outset either it isn't an educated decision its an informed decision.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Whats your timeline for your social / political revolution? Just want to know when to come back with a look at what you wished for.

Automisation will be the big trigger. The same as it was for the agricultural and industrial revolutions.

The 4 day working week is on the table for the next Labour manifesto (and was in the Greens one in 2017) - that's the first step. Italy is moving towards UBI (though facing EU hostility)

I think 10-15 years to see big changes, maybe sooner if governments actually start acting in response to climate change.

 

[scaramanga]

It wasn't they didn't understand, it was there was no way to know, this BREXIT bears no resemblance to the one you predicted at the outset either it isn't an educated decision its an informed decision.

I'm fairly sure this Brexit is precisely the one I predicted unless we got someone capable of negotiating to do the job. With someone like May in charge it would always be a brickshow.

When people voted for Blair and his reasonably sensible policies, they didn't expect the one-eyed tax monster to be PM. But we didn't get to redo the vote, we just had to live with the outcome of a government swapping their leadership.

 

[StephenH]

Brexit was a mess from the off.
Think May has done a reasonable job considering all the idiots in her party.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I'm fairly sure this Brexit is precisely the one I predicted unless we got someone capable of negotiating to do the job. With someone like May in charge it would always be a brickshow.

When people voted for Blair and his reasonably sensible policies, they didn't expect the one-eyed tax monster to be PM. But we didn't get to redo the vote, we just had to live with the outcome of a government swapping their leadership.

People voted New Labour not Blair - unless they were in Blairs constituency its a false equivalency

 

[Rorschach]

IMHO, they didnt, for one second, expect an out vote. They thought it a foregone conclusion remain would win and it would all be put to bed. good Old Dave can say "I tried, ah well..." and just carry on as he was.

Complete complacency. I dont even think Boris expected a leave vote, and was clearly just using it to champion his leadership credentials.

Utterly shameful of all of them.

Would I have expected different from another party? No. This is the breed of politician we have these days.

This

 

[Robspur12]

All Cameron wanted was an upcoming referendum to take to the EU and get some fairly minimal concessions in order to block it off. He wouldn't be the first and certainly won't be the last person to massively underestimate the arrogance of the EU. For their part, they clearly thought that we would never get near a leave vote because everything's perfect in the people's socialist utopia of Eurasia.

You make it sound like Cameron was blameless. He wanted the referendum purely and simply to ward off Miliband and stop haemorrhaging Tories to UKIP. Why would the EU drop ones of its freedoms just because the UK wanted it to? That is not arrogance. Arrogance was calling for a referendum without understanding the implications of a Leave vote and to underestimate the powerful populist rhetoric of Nigel Farage and other Leavers while failing to make a cogent case to Remain. Cameron made the same mistake in under estimating populists as countless politicians in history before him. Not surprised by his arrogance he is self entitled twunt. That the electorate voted this twunt in in 2015 shows most voters don’t look too deeply beyond the gloss.

 

[Robspur12]

But people are stupid and sometimes they want to vote for stupid stuff.

Indeed like Cameron and his Tories. And btw I am no corbynista.

 

[scaramanga]

People voted New Labour not Blair - unless they were in Blairs constituency its a false equivalency

It still shows that the electorate nearly always votes without knowing what they're getting. For many, the intricacies of macroeconomics are well beyond their comprehension anyway, so they can't know any outcomes.

Yet we still let them vote however they wish to vote.

 

[scaramanga]

You make it sound like Cameron was blameless. He wanted the referendum purely and simply to ward off Miliband and stop haemorrhaging Tories to UKIP. Why would the EU drop ones of its freedoms just because the UK wanted it to? That is not arrogance. Arrogance was calling for a referendum without understanding the implications of a Leave vote and to underestimate the powerful populist rhetoric of Nigel Farage and other Leavers while failing to make a cogent case to Remain. Cameron made the same mistake in under estimating populists as countless politicians in history before him. Not surprised by his arrogance he is self entitled twunt. That the electorate voted this twunt in in 2015 shows most voters don’t look too deeply beyond the gloss.

AKA reacting to the wants and needs of the electorate and giving them what they so clearly wanted.