• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Politics, politics, politics

Jacob Rees-Mogg said now was the moment for a confidence vote in Theresa May - otherwise she would lead the Tories into the next election.

Speaking after a launch event for the European Research Group's alternative vision for Brexit, he said getting the 48 letters had "shown to be quite difficult".

But, he added: "I think it is now or the prime minister will lead the Conservatives into the next election.

"You find MPs privately who will say to you they think that is a really good idea in any number and I would be quite surprised."



When do we get to see this alternative vision?
 
Jacob Rees-Mogg said now was the moment for a confidence vote in Theresa May - otherwise she would lead the Tories into the next election.

Speaking after a launch event for the European Research Group's alternative vision for Brexit, he said getting the 48 letters had "shown to be quite difficult".

But, he added: "I think it is now or the prime minister will lead the Conservatives into the next election.

"You find MPs privately who will say to you they think that is a really good idea in any number and I would be quite surprised."



When do we get to see this alternative vision?

there is never any substance to anything he says

a week ago he was throwing around terms like vassal and slave state, yesterday when asked about the unsuccessful coup he bemoaned the use of the word and the proliferation of extreme political language

he's a taco
 
there is never any substance to anything he says

a week ago he was throwing around terms like vassal and slave state, yesterday when asked about the unsuccessful coup he bemoaned the use of the word and the proliferation of extreme political language

he's a taco

Not that I want to be seen as defending him at all (Im not), I basically see them all as this.

Its very rare for a politician to not be a substanceless sound bite taco.
 
The thing that Umunna and the Guardianistas just don't get is that most leavers didn't vote for economic reasons, they voted for societal reasons. So no one will have their mind changed by any 'x% of GDP' stat.

While it continues that 10% of the population have 50% of the wealth, no one is going to give a brick about a few percent lost from shareholders' profits

I'd agree. Brexit, leaving the EU, is not about money. Peoples sentiments are honourable, and you have to respect the desire for change, loyality to the UK, belief in the country. All good things. And most people who voted for Brexit embody that - decent people in the main with strong ethics, just wnating to see the UK develop and show some loyality to its existing people. What is frustrating is for all this postive sentiment, Brexit was never going to deliver. Somehow a politician needs to rise up and galvanise the nation, tap into that desire a national collective direction and identity. There is potential for some more 'traditional' policies, and we don't need to leave a trading union to achieve them. Things like a national conscription for a UK peoples army that trains up people who are out of work and puts them to good use. National Sport and fitness networks, an investment in community facilities as you used to get in Communist countries. National education programmes to make Brits more employable etc etc. all things that don't require the pain of leaving the trading block.

I don't think people truely understand Ireland either. How fresh and recent sectarianism was and is. Communities are still divided, still march provocatively in each others face, and still cling to age old divisions. The Good Friday agreement, which has kept it all under wraps, is less than 20 years old!

There isn't much good to come from Brexit, but the sentiments are noble, and I wish there was a politican who could be honest about our need for trade, and put together a vision which realises some of the sentiment of Brexit.
 
The thing that unites all Brexiteers - right and left - is opposition to the 'level playing field' stuff. The right don't like it because it enforces workers' wages and conditions and environmental protections, while the left don't like it because it preserves neo-liberalism (prevents renationalisation, enforces PFIs, stops interventionist economic management).

So the take back control/sovereignty goal is common. And that alliance of repatriating powers can exist until the 2022 election, when the country decides what it actually wants to do with those new powers.
 
Brexit: Backlash over May's EU nationals 'queue jumping' vow

Theresa May is facing a backlash after she said EU workers would no longer be able to "jump the queue" after Brexit.

SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon said the PM's words were "disgraceful" and EU citizens living in the UK said they would fuel hate crimes against them.

The comments came in a speech to business leaders on Monday, in which she vowed to end EU free movement after Brexit.

Downing Street said EU citizens made an "important contribution" to the UK.


The government says it wants the estimated 3.5 million EU citizens already living in the UK to stay after Brexit but they will have to apply for leave to remain.

But Mrs May used her speech to the CBI to highlight the fact that the proposed EU withdrawal agreement will bring an "end to free movement, once and for all".

The government has yet to set out details of what this will mean in practice in the longer term, but Mrs May has said at some point in the future, after the post-Brexit relationship between the UK and the EU kicks in, that EU citizens will be treated the same as those arriving from outside the EU.

'Self-defeating bottom line'
"It will no longer be the case that EU nationals, regardless of the skills or experience they have to offer, can jump the queue ahead of engineers from Sydney or software developers from Delhi," said Mrs May in her speech.

"Instead of a system based on where a person is from, we will have one that is built around the talents and skills a person has to offer."

Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said the prime minister's language was "offensive" and "disgraceful".

"That the case for Brexit has been reduced to such a miserable and self-defeating bottom line is depressing in the extreme. Let's lift our sights higher than this.

"Actually, the more I think about it, the more offensive 'jump the queue' is as a description of a reciprocal right of free movement. Really disgraceful."

The European Parliament's Brexit co-ordinator Guy Verhofstadt also criticised Mrs May.

"EU citizens living, working, contributing to UK communities, didn't 'jump the queue' and neither did UK nationals in Europe," he said.

"They were exercising rights which provided freedom and opportunities. We will fight to ensure these continue in the future, especially after any transition."

EU citizens living in the UK took to social media to accuse the prime minister of using them as spacegoats to shore up support for her Brexit agreement.

Citizens rights campaigner and professor of history at Northumbria University Tanja Bueltmann said the PM's "despicable" comments were a "punch in the face" for EU citizens like her who had made their home in the UK.

"We are your neighbours, colleagues, friends and family; your doctors, hairdressers and teachers," she said in a Huffington Post article.

Mrs May's words "essentially cast us as unwanted queue-jumpers, cheats and people without skills and talents undeserving to be here, in our own home," she added.

She accused the prime minister of trying to set one group against another - and said her words would mean EU citizens would have to "brace themselves for yet more hate over the coming months".

"The press called May's speech her Brexit fightback. It is not. But it is a fight on the back of EU citizens. In less than a week, May reduced us from 'valued citizens' to 'queue-jumpers.'"

Mike Galsworthy, a director of anti-Brexit campaign Scientists4EU, accused the prime minister of playing a "cynical" blame game to sell her Brexit agreement, in a video message on Twitter.

"EU citizens already contributing to the UK didn't get here by jumping the queue, they got here by being the best person for that job," said Mr Galsworthy.

Any hurdles faced by workers from outside the EU, such as visa and financial stipulations, had been placed there by the UK government, he added.

The prime minister's official spokesman, when asked whether Mrs May regarded EU nationals currently working in the NHS and other public services as having "jumped the queue", said: "We have always been clear of the important contribution which EU citizens make to our economy and to public services.

"The point the prime minister is making is that we wish to have a global system where people's skills are the basis on which they are able to work in the UK.

"At the moment, we have two systems in place - one for people coming to the UK from outside the EU and one for people coming under the rules of free movement.

"It's a fact that people coming under the system of free movement don't need a visa and those from outside the EU do."

The spokesman said an immigration white paper setting out the proposed new system was due to be published "shortly".




My thoughts on immigration have been made clear, so perhaps Im reading her comments through tinted glasses - but I took them to mean exactly what Ive wanted all along. IE, a single policy without discrimination based upon geography. Which is fundamentally, entirely fair.

The current system is a skills based visa for one side, and free entry regardless of skill (or lack there of) for the other. May isnt wrong in pointing this out.

All this response seems to miss the point entirely, and strikes me as petty point scoring and general noise that politicians like to make. Unless its me missing something?

And this:

The European Parliament's Brexit co-ordinator Guy Verhofstadt also criticised Mrs May.
"EU citizens living, working, contributing to UK communities, didn't 'jump the queue' and neither did UK nationals in Europe," he said.
"They were exercising rights which provided freedom and opportunities. We will fight to ensure these continue in the future, especially after any transition."


Can be read a couple of ways.

Is he saying that the rights of current resident EU citizens should be protected? If so thats already been agreed hasnt it?

Or is he saying he will be fighting to ensure continued free movement of people from the EU?
 
I'd agree. Brexit, leaving the EU, is not about money. Peoples sentiments are honourable, and you have to respect the desire for change, loyality to the UK, belief in the country. All good things. And most people who voted for Brexit embody that - decent people in the main with strong ethics, just wnating to see the UK develop and show some loyality to its existing people. What is frustrating is for all this postive sentiment, Brexit was never going to deliver. Somehow a politician needs to rise up and galvanise the nation, tap into that desire a national collective direction and identity. There is potential for some more 'traditional' policies, and we don't need to leave a trading union to achieve them. Things like a national conscription for a UK peoples army that trains up people who are out of work and puts them to good use. National Sport and fitness networks, an investment in community facilities as you used to get in Communist countries. National education programmes to make Brits more employable etc etc. all things that don't require the pain of leaving the trading block.

I don't think people truely understand Ireland either. How fresh and recent sectarianism was and is. Communities are still divided, still march provocatively in each others face, and still cling to age old divisions. The Good Friday agreement, which has kept it all under wraps, is less than 20 years old!

There isn't much good to come from Brexit, but the sentiments are noble, and I wish there was a politican who could be honest about our need for trade, and put together a vision which realises some of the sentiment of Brexit.

A trading block doesn't need to be based on free trade though. It could be fair trade system instead - planned economies that trade things they produce excess of for things they can't produce themselves. In that sense the EU really is the disease, not the symptom

Neoliberalism completely disincentivises long-term investment in people and the economy. You just can't fit it from within - it's a fundamental contradiction.
 
I don't think people truely understand Ireland either. How fresh and recent sectarianism was and is. Communities are still divided, still march provocatively in each others face, and still cling to age old divisions. The Good Friday agreement, which has kept it all under wraps, is less than 20 years old!

I really don’t think the past troubles of Ireland were on most people’s minds pre referendum. Most people Remain or Leave voted on narrow issues that mostly concerned their lives. The people who should have known better are the politicians such as Cameron, Boris and Gove. They played fast and loose with the county’s security and prosperity. Even if they wanted out, fine, carry out an impact assessment of a Leave vote and work through some potential problems before you call a vote. Given the mess we are in and the lack of preparedness it is unlikely that this happened which is quite unforgivable and one of the reasons, for me, the Tories should be booted out.
 
"The point the prime minister is making is that we wish to have a global system where people's skills are the basis on which they are able to work in the UK.

"At the moment, we have two systems in place - one for people coming to the UK from outside the EU and one for people coming under the rules of free movement.

"It's a fact that people coming under the system of free movement don't need a visa and those from outside the EU do."

The spokesman said an immigration white paper setting out the proposed new system was due to be published "shortly".

There is obviously to much sense in those words for some to understand. Especially that silly cow Nicola Sturgeon.
 
I really don’t think the past troubles of Ireland were on most people’s minds pre referendum. Most people Remain or Leave voted on narrow issues that mostly concerned their lives. The people who should have known better are the politicians such as Cameron, Boris and Gove. They played fast and loose with the county’s security and prosperity. Even if they wanted out, fine, carry out an impact assessment of a Leave vote and work through some potential problems before you call a vote. Given the mess we are in and the lack of preparedness it is unlikely that this happened which is quite unforgivable and one of the reasons, for me, the Tories should be booted out.

IMHO, they didnt, for one second, expect an out vote. They thought it a foregone conclusion remain would win and it would all be put to bed. good Old Dave can say "I tried, ah well..." and just carry on as he was.

Complete complacency. I dont even think Boris expected a leave vote, and was clearly just using it to champion his leadership credentials.

Utterly shameful of all of them.

Would I have expected different from another party? No. This is the breed of politician we have these days.
 
Tory MP Sarah Wollaston said she will put forward an amendment to the vote on Brexit to try and force a second public vote.

The Remain campaigner told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "I'm going to be bringing forward an amendment that actually asks the public what they think of this version of Brexit."

Ms Wollaston said the amendment would say "we'll approve this on condition that you ask the public for their informed consent".

She added that any referendum question would be a choice "between this deal and remain as we are".


What are the chances of it going through?
 
The leader of Wales's Plaid Cymru party has joined his Scottish counterpart in calling for the UK to stay in the Single Market and Customs Union.

Adam Price said: "Plaid Cymru and the SNP have been consistent and clear, the least damaging exit from the EU means staying in the single market and customs union.

"We will continue to work together to make sure the voices of Welsh and Scottish people are heard in Westminster."

Hitting out at the official opposition, Mr Price added: "To paraphrase the prime minister, we have three options left - bad deal, no-deal or no Brexit.

"It is only Labour that seem intent that the last option should not be pursued.

"The Labour leadership must now come to its senses and work with Plaid Cymru and the SNP to find a way out of this Brexit madness."

Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn met with the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon earlier, with both sides agreeing in their opposition to Theresa May's Brexit deal.
 
Tory MP Sarah Wollaston said she will put forward an amendment to the vote on Brexit to try and force a second public vote.

The Remain campaigner told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "I'm going to be bringing forward an amendment that actually asks the public what they think of this version of Brexit."

Ms Wollaston said the amendment would say "we'll approve this on condition that you ask the public for their informed consent".

She added that any referendum question would be a choice "between this deal and remain as we are".


What are the chances of it going through?
The options should be between May's agreement and WTO - the choice against what we already have was made ages ago.
 
Tory MP Sarah Wollaston said she will put forward an amendment to the vote on Brexit to try and force a second public vote.

The Remain campaigner told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "I'm going to be bringing forward an amendment that actually asks the public what they think of this version of Brexit."

Ms Wollaston said the amendment would say "we'll approve this on condition that you ask the public for their informed consent".

She added that any referendum question would be a choice "between this deal and remain as we are".


What are the chances of it going through?

I doubt there'd be 100 votes across the SNP, LDs and the Umunna and Grieve factions.

It goes against Tory and Labour manifesto promises, so there would be whipping against it
 
Tory MP Sarah Wollaston said she will put forward an amendment to the vote on Brexit to try and force a second public vote.

The Remain campaigner told BBC Radio 4's World at One: "I'm going to be bringing forward an amendment that actually asks the public what they think of this version of Brexit."

Ms Wollaston said the amendment would say "we'll approve this on condition that you ask the public for their informed consent".

She added that any referendum question would be a choice "between this deal and remain as we are".


What are the chances of it going through?
None I would have thought.
 
IMHO, they didnt, for one second, expect an out vote. They thought it a foregone conclusion remain would win and it would all be put to bed. good Old Dave can say "I tried, ah well..." and just carry on as he was.

Complete complacency. I dont even think Boris expected a leave vote, and was clearly just using it to champion his leadership credentials.

Utterly shameful of all of them.

Would I have expected different from another party? No. This is the breed of politician we have these days.
All Cameron wanted was an upcoming referendum to take to the EU and get some fairly minimal concessions in order to block it off. He wouldn't be the first and certainly won't be the last person to massively underestimate the arrogance of the EU. For their part, they clearly thought that we would never get near a leave vote because everything's perfect in the people's socialist utopia of Eurasia.
 
Back