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Politics, politics, politics

milo said:
The EU's position has been to protect its interests and those of its citizens, as you would expect it to do. Every decision that will punish the UK so far has been made by our government.
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The goverment are dealing with an EU organization unwilling to negotiate anything of significance eg the 4 freedoms are non negotiable. They are even refusing to negotiate terms of the new trade deal alongside the terms of withdrawal. They are being very rigid and un cooperative and have pushed the government into a corner with very little room to manouvre.

My point was that the those wanting to remain, here in the UK and on mainland Europe, are also their citizens and the EU should be looking to protect them too. The likes of Juncker, Tusk, Barnier, Verhofstadt need to consider them and not simply abandon them in the pursuit of making sure Britain are left with such a bad deal from the negotiations that no other EU nation dares to leave in the future.
 
milo said:
She'd need to become an MP first.

I think that it is a mistake to think of Brexit negotiations in adversarial terms. Successful negotiations require give and take on both sides and an ability to find common ground.
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I think Ruth Davidson is intelligent, a pragmatist and would be a better leader than gangsta granny. She's giving the Tories hope in Scotland no mean feat. The only slight thing against her is that she is gay which may not go down well with the grass roots, blue rinse, finger wagging phalanx.
 
DeleHarry said:
The goverment are dealing with an EU organization unwilling to negotiate anything of significance eg the 4 freedoms are non negotiable. They are even refusing to negotiate terms of the new trade deal alongside the terms of withdrawal. They are being very rigid and un cooperative and have pushed the government into a corner with very little room to manouvre.

My point was that the those wanting to remain, here in the UK and on mainland Europe, are also their citizens and the EU should be looking to protect them too. The likes of Juncker, Tusk, Barnier, Verhofstadt need to consider them and not simply abandon them in the pursuit of making sure Britain are left with such a bad deal from the negotiations that no other EU nation dares to leave in the future.
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The remainers are citizens of the Uk once we leave not the EU whether we like it or not. They are not a consideration for Juncker.
 
Robspur12 said:
The remainers are citizens of the Uk once we leave not the EU whether we like it or not. They are not a consideration for Juncker.
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A caring and compassionate organization would attempt to take everyone into consideration. The EU loves the divorce analogy. In any divorce surely both parents should have the welfare of their kids as the number one priority. Why are the EU allowed to simply disown millions of its UK citizens because of the break up
 
Robspur12 said:
I think Ruth Davidson is intelligent, a pragmatist and would be a better leader than gangsta granny. She's giving the Tories hope in Scotland no mean feat. The only slight thing against her is that she is gay which may not go down well with the grass roots, blue rinse, finger wagging phalanx.
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I agree that she appears to be the most competent high profile Tory but she has never been tested in office.
 
DeleHarry said:
The goverment are dealing with an EU organization unwilling to negotiate anything of significance eg the 4 freedoms are non negotiable. They are even refusing to negotiate terms of the new trade deal alongside the terms of withdrawal. They are being very rigid and un cooperative and have pushed the government into a corner with very little room to manouvre.

My point was that the those wanting to remain, here in the UK and on mainland Europe, are also their citizens and the EU should be looking to protect them too. The likes of Juncker, Tusk, Barnier, Verhofstadt need to consider them and not simply abandon them in the pursuit of making sure Britain are left with such a bad deal from the negotiations that no other EU nation dares to leave in the future.
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That has all been clear from before the referendum. We made a decision knowing that.

The government still had options though. May's position on freedom of movement and the ECJ has left the EU with little room for manoeuvre. A softer line on both, would I think, have been met by a softer line from the EU on access to the single market.

A50 gives all of the trump cards to the EU, again we knew this before the referendum. It is naive to believe that they should give these up by negotiating the exit deal and a trade agreement in parallel. That would weaken their hand. We have not helped ourselves on this though, there is a strict two year limit on A50 negotiating our exit, so triggering it in March when there was little chance of significant progress until the French and German elections were over weakened our position. Calling an unnecessary general election weakened it further by wasting more time that we do not have.

From what I have seen so far, the EU seem more interested in maintaining the rights of their citizens than the UK government. UK ministers have consistently failed to say that they will maintain the rights that EU citizens in the UK have now after Brexit.
 
milo said:
Who do you replace her with? She was the best of a pretty grim bunch last summer. The talent pool in the Tory party is pretty shallow right now.
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True. There's a few - Ruth Davidson, Daniel Hannah, Matthew Hanrooster, Tobias Ellwood. But no obvious next Cameron/Blair charismatic youthful figure
 
milo said:
From what I have seen so far, the EU seem more interested in maintaining the rights of their citizens than the UK government. UK ministers have consistently failed to say that they will maintain the rights that EU citizens in the UK have now after Brexit.
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That is not strictly true Milo, the government did offer to open negotiations straight away on a reciprocal arrangement about citizens rights but the EU said it could not be done till our leaving bill was settled(why a fee is due when you give two years notice is beyond me)

May and her government have not been great but they did make the offer to start negotiations on that straight away, it is the EU and Juncker trying to be difficult.
 
Patel would have been my choice as the best tory to be leader, anti EU tough on crime etc. That was till she started fiddling the books and putting her husband on the wage bill. It is a shocking lack of judgement from someone who looked quite promising.
 
scaramanga said:
Don't let economic illiterates drag you into thinking fox hunting has anything to do with anything.

Of all the items in both manifestos this is at the very, very bottom in terms of relevance to human beings. It only ever became a political issue because Blair needed to take some heat off.
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Labour manifesto...fully costed, Tory manifesto.....not so fully costed. Ha, ha.
 
scaramanga said:
He's done nothing of the sort.

All he's done is be the other horse in a two horse race when the other has a drunk jockey.
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He has been calm and measured and has faced the gotcha moments pretty well. In contrast May has looked a right mess. May is clearly not enjoying this campaign, whilst I think Jezza is. Watched him in action speaking to an outside meeting in Hull (you know, real voters, the ones May said she'd be speaking to) and he was very, very impressive on the hustings. He was passionate, used some first rate rhetoric and was funny to boot.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
He has been calm and measured and has faced the gotcha moments pretty well. In contrast May has looked a right mess. May is clearly not enjoying this campaign, whilst I think Jezza is. Watched him in action speaking to an outside meeting in Hull (you know, real voters, the ones May said she'd be speaking to) and he was very, very impressive on the hustings. He was passionate, used some first rate rhetoric and was funny to boot.
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He might have shot himself in the foot yesterday over the IRA again.

As with all his responses about them he was very cagey and evasive. The best he could offer is that their bombings were wrong only because civilians were hurt. That could and should do him a lot of damage.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
That is not strictly true Milo, the government did offer to open negotiations straight away on a reciprocal arrangement about citizens rights but the EU said it could not be done till our leaving bill was settled(why a fee is due when you give two years notice is beyond me)

May and her government have not been great but they did make the offer to start negotiations on that straight away, it is the EU and Juncker trying to be difficult.
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That's because the EU's position has always been that negotiations can only take place after the A50 notification.

It was an attempt by us to segment the negotiations to strengthen our position.
 
Gutter Boy said:
True. There's a few - Ruth Davidson, Daniel Hannah, Matthew Hanrooster, Tobias Ellwood. But no obvious next Cameron/Blair charismatic youthful figure
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Before May, sitting Prime Ministers have only been replaced by Chancellors and Foreign Secretaries. We can now add Home Secretaries to that list.
 
milo said:
The IFS was pretty damning about both manifestos and they criticised the Tories for theirs being completely uncoated.
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Absolutely, both are terrible.

It read to me though, that the main Conservative criticism was that it was full of promises already made in the budget.
 
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