Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Baleforce]

I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this.

Some of us on this lunatic asylum island are still sane, please send help.

 

[SpurMeUp]

What would be the point of that, if the withdrawal agreement (containing the backstop provisions) absolutely cannot be reopened?

Sounds like a change to me.

They have always been open to listening to our proposals. I know you'd love to see us have them 'on the run' as it were. The truth of the matter is they are far more in control than we are, because a withdrawl agreement matters far less to them than to us. They don't take our attitude either - they understand that a deal is about working with partners not trying to beat them. We are now in that adverserial position because we are the weaker party. This was outlined pre-vote, some people lied and said we'd hold all the cards and a deal would be simple. It is now clear that this was not true. Why continue to trust people that were either wrong or lied?

 

[SpurMeUp]

We've been through this before and, as always you ignore my responses and tell me a few days/weeks later that nobody has specified anything.

Here, for the final time: https://www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/search/21425474/

Haha. How to get out of something you can't answer.

 

[Parklaner81]

They have always been open to listening to our proposals. I know you'd love to see us have them 'on the run' as it were. The truth of the matter is they are far more in control than we are, because a withdrawl agreement matters far less to them than to us. They don't take our attitude either - they understand that a deal is about working with partners not trying to beat them. We are now in that adverserial position because we are the weaker party. This was outlined pre-vote, some people lied and said we'd hold all the cards and a deal would be simple. It is now clear that this was not true. Why continue to trust people that were either wrong or lied?

Can we just stick to the point? I really don't see how 'the withdrawal agreement cannot be reopened', a quote I think i've heard a hundred times now, is compatible with always having been open to listening to our proposals? The latter seems like a fairly clear change from the former, at least to my mind.

Oh, and the bolded bit made me lol.

 

[Rorschach]

What would be the point of that, if the withdrawal agreement (containing the backstop provisions) absolutely cannot be reopened?

Sounds like a change to me.

There was no change. Merkel just said that if you can come up with a workable max-fac or some other magical solution in the next 30 days then let's have it. Needless to say there are no other options. Interpreting the 30 day thing another way was a misread by some UK media outlets.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Can we just stick to the point? I really don't see how 'the withdrawal agreement cannot be reopened', a quote I think i've heard a hundred times now, is compatible with always having been open to listening to our proposals. The latter seems like a fairly clear change from the former, at least to my mind.

Oh, and the bolded bit made me lol.

Okay yeah fair play you got me!!!

There is indeed a subtle change. How much is simply not wanting to be seen to be the bad guy, and how much is 'them on the run' is up for debate. I'd lean towards the former.

You need to make a distinction between Brussels and Heads of member states. Brussels or the EU government said look we've worked on the withdrawl agreement with May and concluded it, we've knocked the backstop back and forth, we're not going to re-open all that tosh after we've done it to death. Heads of state get together - who effectively control Brusssels - and say sure we have always been open to your ideas on the backstop and how to solve it. Up to you to propose somehthing.

 

[scaramanga]

Haha. How to get out of something you can't answer.

I'm not in the habit of repeating myself - if you want an opinion to argue against, find it in the many, many times I've previously answered you.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I'm not in the habit of repeating myself - if you want an opinion to argue against, find it in the many, many times I've previously answered you.

Pull the other one. You're on here night and day....posting....and you can't list your points. Fair enough.

 

[Baleforce]

No detail is better than a bad detail

 

[Parklaner81]

Okay yeah fair play you got me!!!

There is indeed a subtle change. How much is simply not wanting to be seen to be the bad guy, and how much is 'them on the run' is up for debate. I'd lean towards the former.

You need to make a distinction between Brussels and Heads of member states. Brussels or the EU government said look we've worked on the withdrawl agreement with May and concluded it, we've knocked the backstop back and forth, we're not going to re-open all that tosh after we've done it to death. Heads of state get together - who effectively control Brusssels - and say sure we have always been open to your ideas on the backstop and how to solve it. Up to you to propose somehthing.

It's ironic that you choose to make that distinction, because the person I honestly think I've heard parrot the phrase in question most often is Varadkar.

 

[Rorschach]

One possible consequence of the proroguing thing is that it will focus all the meandering nonsense that has been going on for the last 3 years, especially on the remain side. They'll have to get organised in a way they haven't been before if they want to extend article 50. They have a tiny window to throw a spanner in the works.

 

[scaramanga]

Pull the other one. You're on here night and day....posting....and you can't list your points. Fair enough.

Not can't, won't. I won't play your game, I won't waste my time telling you something I've already told you dozens of times so that you can then claim I haven't told you anything and that because of your inability to comprehend/remember/engage with others in something resembling a discussion you have somehow proven a point.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this.

A post from the heart. And head.

It is how most people see this outside the UK. People are shocked that a nation they respect - a sensible prosperous place that has created so much in this world - could self-harm in such a way. Sometimes its easier to see from afar.

 

[Baleforce]

I have a lot of Irish mates, they think it’s insane, they also feel less welcome here, two have moved to mainland Europe already and the rest are thinking about it.

It’s shameful.

 

[Robspur12]

I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this.

Sadly the gaze has been so fixed on the hard left of Labour that the hard right of the Tories has snuck in the back door with a PM who only cares about himself rather than our country.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Yes, I do. The same methods they've been proposing for a while - of checks away from the border, the same ones that Ireland has been preparing for too.

Dont know why your bothering debating with them. They are remainers, it has never been about the logistics of anything, it has been about stopping brexit at any cost, it is why the EU have behaved the way it has because they thought the remainers in the UK parliament would come to their rescue so they could still get their money.

The reason Macron is so against us leaving, where will the money come from to replace what we pay? the French will have to cough up more or receive less subsidies.

The is a genuine fear by the remain extremists on here and in the UK parliament that we might actually be able to now leave the shackles of the EU and govern ourselves again, not as some far right country because if you remember at the last election the so called right wing parties lost votes. This country has always and rightly so been fairly liberal, we will remain so outside of the evil EU. Any party that does not take the centre ground risks obliteration at the general elections.

I still say the remainers in parliament will stop us leaving and people like Blair who have been in cahoots with the EU the whole time will tie as us to the EU. Which is when the right and maybe even far right in this country will become a real threat. To turn your back on a referendum and what the people voted for will undermine democracy for decades in this country and will leave a far bigger stain on the public conscience then just deciding to have a slightly different relationship with countries that we trade with.

This message was posted to you from Italy, yep I am on holiday in the EU wow amazing we can still holiday here. Guess what the couple next to us at dinner were Americans, they are not in the EU either but can travel here, I asked them how they did this and they looked at me like was I joking or fudging thick. I honestly thought only people who were in countries in the beloved EU could travel to other countries in the EU.

We have just over a month to see whether this country is now a democracy and the people's wishes are respected or whether we are North Korea where the are no freedoms.

My bet is still on the dirty fcuking Nazis in parliament winning the day and disrespecting the referendum result.

 

[scaramanga]

I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this.

If you think the EU has been working with the interests of the UK in mind then you haven't been paying attention.

The UK has always has less regulation and freer markets than its European competition. In order to neuter our ability to compete and undercut, the EU has worked in its own interests against those of the UK.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I have a lot of Irish mates, they think it’s insane, they also feel less welcome here, two have moved to mainland Europe already and the rest are thinking about it.

It’s shameful.

I have an Irish wife and she thinks its insane that she moved to a country that does not have full rights over its own courts and has to take decisions from Europe, she often has to give evidence in court on some of the social care cases she works.

As for feeling less welcome I suspect they are snowflakes. The Irish like most people will not suddenly stop coming here, Australia and America with immigration rules that we will allegedly try to follow are two of the most popular countries in the world to immigrate to.

Also worth noting and I say this with a Irish wife that the Irish in their battle for Independence never actually wanted true Independence, which is why they demanded the rules that the be freedom of movement between Ireland and Britain, they did this because they wanted to come to the UK to work(notably living good hard working lives) they wanted the freedom and a head start on other countries to come to the UK to work and make money but did not want to be governed by us. I have no issues with that, except that the is a glaring obvious hypocrisy to what is going on in the UK with its relationship with the EU right now.

 

[Rorschach]

I have an Irish wife and she thinks its insane that she moved to a country that does not have full rights over its own courts and has to take decisions from Europe, she often has to give evidence in court on some of the social care cases she works.

As for feeling less welcome I suspect they are snowflakes. The Irish like most people will not suddenly stop coming here, Australia and America with immigration rules that we will allegedly try to follow are two of the most popular countries in the world to immigrate to.

Also worth noting and I say this with a Irish wife that the Irish in their battle for Independence never actually wanted true Independence, which is why they demanded the rules that the be freedom of movement between Ireland and Britain, they did this because they wanted to come to the UK to work(notably living good hard working lives) they wanted the freedom and a head start on other countries to come to the UK to work and make money but did not want to be governed by us. I have no issues with that, except that the is a glaring obvious hypocrisy to what is going on in the UK with its relationship with the EU right now.

I think she's confused, or you are.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this.

Feel free to PM me next time your over for a match and I will happily meet up with you to discuss slapping some fudging sense into one another you disgusting fudging piece of brick.

If you think the NHS is so great I would like to know why pretty much no other country in Europe or the world has a national health service, I have a terminal illness one that I am being treated for privately as would anyone with any sense so hopefully will have many more years left in me.

As for other countries and trade deals, we can operate on WTO deals but most countries are moving towards free trade agreements, going back to being a trading nation is not as hard as people think and we will not need special treatment, my sister is working legal advice and I dont expect you to believe this because I could be just some weirdo on the internet trying to flimflam to get ahead in argument, but we never got a good deal from Europe they cared more about the mainland countries and just ripped England off for money and the deals being set up in Africa are on her account being really well done. In the PM i can give you her name and department if you dont believe me.

Also I am on holiday and am relaxed and happy but when I see a piece of brick like you tell me you want to slap some fudging sense into people who took a democratic vote to leave a trading block to become a sovereign nation again. I am serious next time your in the UK for a match lets meet up and see who knocks fudging sense into who, because this 53 year old parkinsons suffer still lifts weights and is still prepared to smash a nasty little fudging nazis face into a fudging pulp.

If you want to offer an apology for threatening violence to people who under free will took a vote in a referendum I will let it go, but otherwise I really look forward to fudging meeting you at match this season.