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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

scaramanga said:
Well the last couple of weeks has seen a complete turnaround from "There will be no more negotiation, there is nothing to discuss" to both Merkel and Poundland Napoleon talking about how we can alter the backstop to get through parliament.

So the threat of No Deal has already made changes to the negotiation.
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All the French and German heads of state have said is sure, feel free to propose an alternative to the backstop. We'll happily listen. Which is effectively no change from where we were before.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Like all the sh.it they export to us but wont have a favourable trade deal to do it through?

Plus your discounting the 'Boris loves business' come to our shores massive company incentive scheme:rolleyes:.........corporate immigration will be the next problem:D
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I must have misheard Boris on that one. Don't worry, they'll be plenty of tat being sent to the UK until it can make enough of it's own.
 
SpurMeUp said:
All the French and German heads of state have said is sure, feel free to propose an alternative to the backstop. We'll happily listen. Which is effectively no change from where we were before.
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Are you seriously attempting to claim there's been no change in the language used, in the openness to new solutions, in the possibility of making changes to suit? Both Merkel and Poundland Napoleon have made it clear they believe there is a possibility to avoid the backstop in the last week. If you want people to take you seriously in discussions, you'll need to understand nuance to at least a better than autist level.
 
scaramanga said:
Are you seriously attempting to claim there's been no change in the language used, in the openness to new solutions, in the possibility of making changes to suit? Both Merkel and Poundland Napoleon have made it clear they believe there is a possibility to avoid the backstop in the last week. If you want people to take you seriously in discussions, you'll need to understand nuance to at least a better than autist level.
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No need to get personal. What changes did they offer?
 
Rorschach said:
No need to get personal. What changes did they offer?
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They've agreed to discuss the backstop and the possibility that the backstop could be altered or replaced with something else. Before Johnson started genuinely threatening No Deal, they both said that no alterations to the backstop could be made, no deal without a backstop.
 
scaramanga said:
Are you seriously attempting to claim there's been no change in the language used, in the openness to new solutions, in the possibility of making changes to suit? Both Merkel and Poundland Napoleon have made it clear they believe there is a possibility to avoid the backstop in the last week. If you want people to take you seriously in discussions, you'll need to understand nuance to at least a better than autist level.
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Yes they don't want the EU to be blamed so their language is more open. And of course they want a deal. The ball is in our court to propose something. But it doesn't look like we will until the 11th hour. I'm not even sure this cabinet has its brick together with a viable proposition. Are you?
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yes they don't want the EU to be blamed so their language is more open. And of course they want a deal. The ball is in our court to propose something. But it doesn't look like we will until the 11th hour. I'm not even sure this cabinet has its brick together with a viable proposition. Are you?
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Yes, I do. The same methods they've been proposing for a while - of checks away from the border, the same ones that Ireland has been preparing for too.
 
scaramanga said:
They've agreed to discuss the backstop and the possibility that the backstop could be altered or replaced with something else. Before Johnson started genuinely threatening No Deal, they both said that no alterations to the backstop could be made, no deal without a backstop.
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I missed that can you show me the quotes. Are we talking about the NI only option?
 
scaramanga said:
Yes, I do. The same methods they've been proposing for a while - of checks away from the border, the same ones that Ireland has been preparing for too.
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Lets for one moment pretent you are correct - there is magic system that will mean a customs union can exist without a border. Is the UK happy with the rest of Mays exit deal? ERG weren't too pleased.

Again, lets pretend everyone can suck up the rest of the terms of the widthdrawl agreement. We still don't have a trade agreement with the EU. All that brick is still to come. Months and often years of negotiations pre-date a Free Trade Agreement. There is a lot to work through from fish to fianance to cars to regulations and who oversees them etc etc. In the interim what is the damage to investment and companies trying to plan?

So even if Boris pulls a rabit out the hat and agrees a new widthdrawl agreement, we are so far from concluding this. And then, few if any can tell me what the benifits of it all are. Deregulation was one offering. Though we don't know what of, and how it will benifit us. You mentioned getting rid of the minium wage. That is not to most peoples benifit. The 9b is good. A chunk of change. But won't get close to covering losses from farmers, banks, car makers etc etc
 
SpurMeUp said:
All the French and German heads of state have said is sure, feel free to propose an alternative to the backstop. We'll happily listen. Which is effectively no change from where we were before.
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What would be the point of that, if the withdrawal agreement (containing the backstop provisions) absolutely cannot be reopened?

Sounds like a change to me.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Lets for one moment pretent you are correct - there is magic system that will mean a customs union can exist without a border. Is the UK happy with the rest of Mays exit deal? ERG weren't too pleased.

Again, lets pretend everyone can suck up the rest of the terms of the widthdrawl agreement. We still don't have a trade agreement with the EU. All that brick is still to come. Months and often years of negotiations pre-date a Free Trade Agreement. There is a lot to work through from fish to fianance to cars to regulations and who oversees them etc etc. In the interim what is the damage to investment and companies trying to plan?

So even if Boris pulls a rabit out the hat and agrees a new widthdrawl agreement, we are so far from concluding this. And then, few if any can tell me what the benifits of it all are. Deregulation was one offering. Though we don't know what of, and how it will benifit us. You mentioned getting rid of the minium wage. That is not to most peoples benifit. The 9b is good. A chunk of change. But won't get close to covering losses from farmers, banks, car makers etc etc
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We've been through this before and, as always you ignore my responses and tell me a few days/weeks later that nobody has specified anything.

Here, for the final time: https://www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/search/21425474/
 
I've stayed out of the Brexit debate because it's your internal issue. As a Canadian, I don't have a right to tell you what to do. My genuine fear for you (a country I love and have deep personal ties to) is that you're going to get a shockingly rude awakening to the cold realities of geopolitics when you're out of the only power bloc that gave a damn about the wellbeing of the UK - a power bloc that, once you're out, has a real and pressing interest in making sure that you suffer for it, pour encourager les autres.

But I can tell you that, for Canada, our PM's trade advisory group (headed by an ex-leader of our Conservative Party) has already openly stated that a post-Brexit UK will be in the weakest position it's been in for a very long time, making the prospect of heavily one-sided trade deals that favor us and the United States pretty likely. And your government seems utterly unable to understand that you will need a lot of goodwill to avoid nations reaming you on all those deals - goodwill that rapidly runs out when you do things like make Jihadi Jack Canada's problem without a word's warning or care in the world.

And that's Canada, a nation that still has some sentimental ties to the old country, is a close security partner and a part of the Anglosphere you created.

The US, India and China will be far, far more brutally direct, and with India there's a tiny historical grievance they would much like to settle. Not to mention the EU itself, which has little reason to risk other members leaving by treating the UK with kid gloves.

I fear for your future with what you're doing. The world, as you will shortly realise unless you stop this, will not see you as anything other than roadkill. This is international relations realism at its basest level, and it has worked this way for thousands of years, ever since the Melian Dialogue laid out in stark simplicity what a weak nation can expect from those stronger than it.

And everything that truly made Britain a human exemplar, including one of the greatest human achievements of the 20th century in the NHS, will be sold lock, stock and barrel to pay the bills the world will demand.

I hope you don't do this - as someone who loves so many things about the UK, I hope you don't. I wish I could slap some fudging sense into all of you, but I can't.

All I can do is be sad you're doing this. :(
 
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