*** OMT TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs Fiorentina 2nd leg ***

[Robspur12]

Very simply put... The knockout stages started with 32 teams.32! For illustration that's the same number of teams as there are at the World Cup.

Anyone thinking that out of all those 32 teams the likelihood of us winning is particularly high are either deluded or have absolutely no grasp of basic statistics. The second seems pretty likely considering claims about this being a much more likely avenue into the CL than the league type comments. Even if we were the best team in the thing chances are we wouldn't win it and probably there were 12-13 teams at least with a realistic chance of winning the thing. We were amongst the favourites, but in no way a runaway favourite.

To win it we would need at least one or two close ties to go our way. We certainly needed a tie like the one against Fiorentina where we overall were quite clearly the better team (imo) to swing our way. But in a tournament with 32 teams in it chances are all the things that have to go our way won't the vast majority of the time.

For me the take away positive is that we were the better team. People will complain, as they are in most threads. But we performed reasonably well. This despite us actually rotating and resting players because of the League Cup final and because we're still in the race for 4th in the league. Fiorentina on the other hand didn't have a cup final this Sunday and rested players in the league instead. Despite this we were the better team overall. The negativity is way over the top.

Brain I am a huge Poch fan, but it wasn't that we lost today that has made me angry. It's the manner of the loss. You can say we were the better side but tbh we have lost very limply - shot ourselves in the foot in front of goal and at the back. That had nothing to do with rotation it's mental weakness. Simply not good enough from elite sports men, it was a problem last season when individual errors cost us points. At some point if we are to be successful the collective mentality has to be stronger.

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

I see the point about Bentaleb, but when we first took our first team down there, played several players who are likely to start again on Sunday, it seemed a bit strange to weaken the team when we still only needed one more goal.

I thought Soldado and Lamela should have come off. Chadli was slightly better than Lamela for me, and he is a goal threat, which Lamela isn't. Putting Lamela on the left and Townsend on the right didn't give us more width.

Kane should have played up front where he is more likely to get a goal. Soldado was never likely to score.

Can't argue that much about that, except Bentaleb looks like he is one stretch away from a hamstring, he pulled up v Liverpool and i think they are being cautious with him past 70mins.

We look so unbalanced with Soldado in the team, he doesnt go in behind doesnt drop back to allow others to go beyond, sort of hangs on edge of the area getting in the way, especially when inverted wingers are heading towards same area. Its not just a confidence thing, he seems to lack awareness.

 

[Pirate55]

Very simply put... The knockout stages started with 32 teams.32! For illustration that's the same number of teams as there are at the World Cup.

Anyone thinking that out of all those 32 teams the likelihood of us winning is particularly high are either deluded or have absolutely no grasp of basic statistics. The second seems pretty likely considering claims about this being a much more likely avenue into the CL than the league type comments. Even if we were the best team in the thing chances are we wouldn't win it and probably there were 12-13 teams at least with a realistic chance of winning the thing. We were amongst the favourites, but in no way a runaway favourite.

To win it we would need at least one or two close ties to go our way. We certainly needed a tie like the one against Fiorentina where we overall were quite clearly the better team (imo) to swing our way. But in a tournament with 32 teams in it chances are all the things that have to go our way won't the vast majority of the time.

For me the take away positive is that we were the better team. People will complain, as they are in most threads. But we performed reasonably well. This despite us actually rotating and resting players because of the League Cup final and because we're still in the race for 4th in the league. Fiorentina on the other hand didn't have a cup final this Sunday and rested players in the league instead. Despite this we were the better team overall. The negativity is way over the top.

Generally agree, but it does highlight the paucity of our squad. This needs to be addressed urgently. Still think Baldini has a lot to answer for.

 

[Libero]

The competition is seriously terrible. The best reform to make now would be to eliminate the CL dropouts from the competition, which would hopefully lead to those extra two games (round of thirty-fudgeing-two) being tossed out. Of course, the TV guys would never stand for such a thing.

They should revert it to a straight knockout. Do away with the seeding after the first round and allow anyone to be drawn against anyone

 

[milo]

And why is Chadli out of favour all of a sudden? He wasn't doing badly when he was dropped, and was one of our most dangerous players today (although that isn't saying much). Curious.

He wasn't dropped. His Dad died and he was given compassionate leave to go back to Belgium. I am guessing that it is just taking him a little while to find his rhythm again.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Stambouli, Fazio and Davies are better than the squad players that they replaced. Would you rather have had Capoue, Kaboul and Naughton playing tonight? We all know that there is a drop in quality outside of the core group of players and that this needs addressing in the summer.

With regards to January, which players in these positions changed clubs that we should have signed?

I agree they're better than who they replaced, but how do you square that with the 'there is a drop in quality outside of the core group' comment, when the core group contains kane, bentaleb,mason,rose and the drop in quality players cost us 5m,8m,10m.

So how do we address that? Promote more youth and just splash on nailed on talent?

 

[Robspur12]

Strangely one of those "just mentally weak" players won this tournament last season... How do you figure that happened?

Most teams in a knockout tournament get eliminated. In most games goals result from mistakes, over a tournament of many games big mistakes are likely to happen sooner or later.

I agree that there is a mentality problem, but I never thought it would take 7-8 months to sort out I have to say.

I forgot Fazio won last season. It must be Spurs then mate. Despite the number of games we have such a rich pedigree in Europe I so want us to win this tournament.

 

[milo]

I agree they're better than who they replaced, but how do you square that with the 'there is a drop in quality outside of the core group' comment, when the core group contains kane, bentaleb,mason,rose and the drop in quality players cost us 5m,8m,10m.

So how do we address that? Promote more youth and just splash on nailed on talent?

I think that we are probably looking at a core of about 15 players who get what Poch wants but there is varying quality within that group.

I think that the first priority in the summer is to get the surplus players out. A quality replacement/understudy for Kane is desperately needed, I would be content for the rest of the summer business to be low profile players who fit in with Poch's preferred way of playing and more promoted youth.

 

[nayenezgani]

I agree they're better than who they replaced, but how do you square that with the 'there is a drop in quality outside of the core group' comment, when the core group contains kane, bentaleb,mason,rose and the drop in quality players cost us 5m,8m,10m.

So how do we address that? Promote more youth and just splash on nailed on talent?

Invest money in better quality, better suited players. That's the key.

 

[Baleforce]

sadly there is no such thing as nailed on talent, Soldado was arguably the lowest risk signing we have made under ENIC and look what's happened to the poor lad

hopefully the curse will be lifted when we get the new stadium

 

[the dza]

I missed most of this coz of work, only saw the last 20 minutes. Was it as sh1t as it seemed?

 

[Libero]

Very simply put... The knockout stages started with 32 teams.32! For illustration that's the same number of teams as there are at the World Cup.

Anyone thinking that out of all those 32 teams the likelihood of us winning is particularly high are either deluded or have absolutely no grasp of basic statistics. The second seems pretty likely considering claims about this being a much more likely avenue into the CL than the league type comments. Even if we were the best team in the thing chances are we wouldn't win it and probably there were 12-13 teams at least with a realistic chance of winning the thing. We were amongst the favourites, but in no way a runaway favourite.

To win it we would need at least one or two close ties to go our way. We certainly needed a tie like the one against Fiorentina where we overall were quite clearly the better team (imo) to swing our way. But in a tournament with 32 teams in it chances are all the things that have to go our way won't the vast majority of the time.

For me the take away positive is that we were the better team. People will complain, as they are in most threads. But we performed reasonably well. This despite us actually rotating and resting players because of the League Cup final and because we're still in the race for 4th in the league. Fiorentina on the other hand didn't have a cup final this Sunday and rested players in the league instead. Despite this we were the better team overall. The negativity is way over the top.

I agree to an extent but the luck has to run someones way during a run with tight ties, why shouldn't it be us? You beat Fiorentina and its 16 left with three ties left till the final.

 

[milo]

Brain I am a huge Poch fan, but it wasn't that we lost today that has made me angry. It's the manner of the loss. You can say we were the better side but tbh we have lost very limply - shot ourselves in the foot in front of goal and at the back. That had nothing to do with rotation it's mental weakness. Simply not good enough from elite sports men, it was a problem last season when individual errors cost us points. At some point if we are to be successful the collective mentality has to be stronger.

I think that we lost this tie by not making the most of our dominance in the first half of each game. I do not think that I have seen us play better than we did in the first 20 minutes of the first leg all season but we did not make that dominance count.

 

[90291Spur]

I missed most of this coz of work, only saw the last 20 minutes. Was it as sh1t as it seemed?

A game of mistakes. We should have scored but Nobby Nogoldo couldn't hit a two yard pass to Chadli then brain farts by Fazio and Verts gift them their two.

 

[Joesh]

I think again you are missing my point. I think I have indicated that its our players arrogance that has cost us. If they match Fiorentina then they win, its simple, especially if you have two games. A one off is different and anything can happen but over two games? I dont accept what you are saying at all about the 11 not being good enough. Our first 11 is better than Fiorentina, its not even open to debate. You keep using Arsenal as an example, they still have a second leg. We had more than enough chances in half an hour last week to win the tie yet we are not very good by your estimations? What does that make Fiorentina then? They are poor and we were worse tonight. We should have made the reality a Win and progress and for that the players need to realise they are required to match a team first before allowing their extra quality to shine through and not just be happy with winning the odd big game in a season.

Maybe our players arrogance has come from the fact that our best performer, Kane, has started both games on the bench. Is our first 11 better than Fiorentina?? I don't know, how do you? they never played each other, The EPL is better than Seria A, we could say that with a bit of confidence.

 

[braineclipse]

Brain I am a huge Poch fan, but it wasn't that we lost today that has made me angry. It's the manner of the loss. You can say we were the better side but tbh we have lost very limply - shot ourselves in the foot in front of goal and at the back. That had nothing to do with rotation it's mental weakness. Simply not good enough from elite sports men, it was a problem last season when individual errors cost us points. At some point if we are to be successful the collective mentality has to be stronger.

But dreadful mistakes happen at most clubs. Particularly most non-elite clubs. If we could afford players that never make mistakes like that we wouldn't be the club we are.

If there is mental weakness, and I think there has been for a long time, it takes time sorting out.

Generally agree, but it does highlight the paucity of our squad. This needs to be addressed urgently. Still think Baldini has a lot to answer for.

I think most fans were already aware of this. I think Poch and Baldini are too. You're way too harsh on our signings from last summer I think, but the fact that youngsters like Bentaleb, Mason and Kane have become such important players certainly highlight the lack of quality in those they have replaced.

I would be very surprised if the squad isn't strengthened again come the summer.

I forgot Fazio won last season. It must be Spurs then mate. Despite the number of games we have such a rich pedigree in Europe I so want us to win this tournament.

Of course we all want to win, every game and every tournament.

But just because we got eliminated in a close-ish game where we looked to be the better side doesn't mean that "it must be Spurs". More likely it's just a result of the natural variance within football. Out of 32 teams in the knockout stages of the EL 31 do not win the fudging cup. If every time we fail to win the competition people say "It must be Spurs" or "typical Spurs" (and they do) that's a lot of fodder for confirmation bias. In reality we lost a tie we probably deserved to win, but that happens a lot in football.

 

[Robspur12]

I think that we lost this tie by not making the most of our dominance in the first half of each game. I do not think that I have seen us play better than we did in the first 20 minutes of the first leg all season but we did not make that dominance count.

I agree to a certain extent Milo, but for me this will be remembered as yet another game where individual mistakes will have cost us. I can accept us not being clinical if we then have the mentality to close a game out when we get a goal. Unfortunately we don't. Same last season when individual mistakes cost us so many points. We have been better this season but clearly not eradicated the problem.This for me is where Poch has to focus.

 

[the dza]

A game of mistakes. We should have scored but Nobby Nogoldo couldn't hit a two yard pass to Chadli then brain farts by Fazio and Verts gift them their two.

Hopefully we've got all of our fvck-ups out the way now then.

 

[90291Spur]

Hopefully we've got all of our fvck-ups out the way now then.

That's the spirit!

 

[braineclipse]

I missed most of this coz of work, only saw the last 20 minutes. Was it as sh1t as it seemed?

Very good first half apart from Soldado's miss. We created more chances, dominated play and possession and had them on the ropes at times. Looked very likely that we would get our goal.

Fiorentina started the second half a bit better, but we still looked the better side and I expected us to settle down and get back to dominating. Then Fazio made a huge mistake and they got the opening goal. They grew in confidence, our heads dropped a bit and the game became a lot more scrappy. Another mistake from Vertonghen, more of the same.

We seemed to mount a bit of a comeback, but a bit like against West Ham we probably needed a scrappy goal from somewhere to turn the momentum and all in all we were poor in the second half. Goals, as they say, change football matches.

 

[Robspur12]

But dreadful mistakes happen at most clubs. Particularly most non-elite clubs. If we could afford players that never make mistakes like that we wouldn't be the club we are.

If there is mental weakness, and I think there has been for a long time, it takes time sorting out.



I think most fans were already aware of this. I think Poch and Baldini are too. You're way too harsh on our signings from last summer I think, but the fact that youngsters like Bentaleb, Mason and Kane have become such important players certainly highlight the lack of quality in those they have replaced.

I would be very surprised if the squad isn't strengthened again come the summer.



Of course we all want to win, every game and every tournament.

But just because we got eliminated in a close-ish game where we looked to be the better side doesn't mean that "it must be Spurs". More likely it's just a result of the natural variance within football. Out of 32 teams in the knockout stages of the EL 31 do not win the fudgeing cup. If every time we fail to win the competition people say "It must be Spurs" or "typical Spurs" (and they do) that's a lot of fodder for confirmation bias. In reality we lost a tie we probably deserved to win, but that happens a lot in football.

Brain, I don't agree we were the better side, the scoreline confirms that as Fiorentina are comfortably through and we are out. We made several errors that were punished whereas I thought today especially Fiorentina were very solid and picked us off easily on the counter.