*** OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Juventus ***

[SpurMeUp]

Yes, but if until the 60th minute they have done fudge all and we are comfortably on top, why disrupt things with a sub? I looked at their first goal again and had Davies been just a miisecond slower to react, Lichtsteiner would have been offside and the cross would have never happened. How things would have turned out after that is anyone's guess, but I think it would have been game over for Juve. This game wasn't lost on Poch not reacting (I mean, Allegri made his subs in the 61st min and they scored 3 mins after that, so even if Poch had reacted, it might still have been too late). The game was lost on very very very fine margins and luck being with Juve tonight.

View attachment 4242

I agree. Nevertheless, could the team have been ready, knowing that at some point Juve were going to throw everything at us? From about 60 mins is when you’d expect a losing cup team to switch it up, it’s also when your team will start to tire after working their socks off and dominating.

Having a defensive lock down plan B ready from HT might have made the difference. Even if it was deployed after their first goal. Instead the team and Poch were shell shocked. We let them smash and grab, and we didn’t defend well enough in either game.

All credit to Poch for making us a team that outplayed Juve, completely dominated them for most of the tie. Is there room for improvement? Should he be on his toes with subs fully warmed up and ready with a plan if we need to switch it up? In hindsight of course yes. They are the smallest criticisms but as a relatively young highly analytic manager I think it’s an area he will develop himself.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Jurgen the German]

You seems to hate Lamela like he stole your girl friend. He only played for 15 minutes. That was a header which Kane normally scores from. I think no one expected Kane to hit the post instead which is why Lamela or anyone one else was following up.

so the lesson here is to never follow up a shot or a header because one should just assume that Kane/whoever the chance falls to will score? Bizarre logic.

 

[StephenH]

Sorry mate but I didn’t see that much skill form them last night

At no point did I think we had any pressure on us and I was supposed at how weak they were creatively

Yet they won AGAIN!
Chiellini stopped Kane in the most part and they all badgered a harried for 90 mins
We dominated the ball for 75-80 minutes had many more chances. But because we did/could not react to their and lets be honest here 'simple' changes to 4 at the back, we got hit with a sucker punch 2 'easy' goals in 3-4 minute spell.

I'm no football genius (dont all shout YES at once!) but I would have thought we should have gone 3 at the back by dropping Deir back?

Skill is not just a nutmeg or slide rule pass. Its also one of the most critical we have to yet to master 'game management'. We just dont do it, last time we attempted it was to act like idiots at Stamford Bridge May 2016.

As much as I loathe the guy, Mourinho was the best I've ever seen of winning with an inferior team.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We have plenty of gamesmanship and niggly fouls in our own game too and for me we're all the better for it, arguably we need to actually improve that area further rather than bleat on attacking our players for it - Juve used it to their advantage to slow us down having seen us dominate them in the first leg, we had opportunities to go through them and break up their counter attacks which we spurned

I think its the cynicism with which they play that gets me, its to an extreme compared to us and I really find it distasteful.

Thats not to say I think we are saints, or even that we should be, just that there are degrees or levels to this and for me Italian teams are too far up the scale.

While, as recognised, its legitimate, its just not sporting IMO.

I dont 'like' the way they play, I love the way they play. Great skills and allied to grit and determination and they have a practicality to them that is missing at Spurs ATM.
Alway have a bet on Italy in the world cup as they tend to have that 'get the job done' mentality. Mourinho at Inter was outstanding before he lost the plot later at Real.

If Spurs played like Juve did last night I wouldnt bother supporting them.

While I respect the ability to get the result, the means to do so is as important as the result itself, for me.

Mourinho was outstanding at Inter because, being an Italian side, the embraced all the stuff I detest about his way of playing.

Again, Mourinho replaces Poch? Im off football, my interest in the team will hit 0 before you know it.

 

[Baleforce]

Yet they won AGAIN!
Chiellini stopped Kane in the most part and they all badgered a harried for 90 mins
We dominated the ball for 75-80 minutes had many more chances. But because we did/could not react to their and lets be honest here 'simple' changes to 4 at the back, we got hit with a sucker punch 2 'easy' goals in 3-4 minute spell.

I'm no football genius (dont all shout YES at once!) but I would have thought we should have gone 3 at the back by dropping Deir back?

Skill is not just a nutmeg or slide rule pass. Its also one of the most critical we have to yet to master 'game management'. We just dont do it, last time we attempted it was to act like idiots at Stamford Bridge May 2016.

As much as I loathe the guy, Mourinho was the best I've ever seen of winning with an inferior team.

We've seen it a lot from Jose in the last few years, he's an expert at killing a game, huge stretches of time will pass where absolutely nothing happens, we need to learn that.

 

[StephenH]

I love the Pochettino Spurs!
Brilliant to watch and support.

Love Pasta but I enjoy other foods. (far too much @nayimfromthehalfwayline )

Other than Spurs the Dutch team of the late 70's was my first love as a football fan (they never won anything) . Then in 1982 I started to see a different game and style and it opened my eye to other "foods". Italy were the complete deal the full package and they beat Germany 3-1 and they were magnificent.
Italians have "digginablity" and thats a big skill.

 

[StephenH]

We've seen it a lot from Jose in the last few years, he's an expert at killing a game, huge stretches of time will pass where absolutely nothing happens at, we need to learn that.

I dont want US to overdo it, but yes we must get more game savvy. It'll come.

 

[alekaras]

He also knew they had the nouse to kick lumps out of us and get away with it. And he also knew that the ball wouldn't bounce for us when it needed to. And he also knew he could foul Kane as much as he liked and get away with it. I hope he still has pain from where Suarez bit him.

Spot on @90291Spur

Juve basically pulled a Chelsea, but everyone is waxing lyrical about what a tactical masterclass it was by the experienced side that knows what it has to do. That's complete and utter flimflam. If they had stifled us and disrupted us and we were not able to put them under any danger whatsoever, yes that would have been a tactical masterclass. But they didn't. They were under the cosh for 95% of the tie and were lucky to get away with it.

Had Harry's header been just a millimeter to the right, or had Davies been a millisecond slower to respond to Lictsteiner's run (thus putting him offside) there would have been a completely different narrative to this tie. One millimeter or one millisecond should not change the remaining 90 or 180 minutes. Call us unlucky, say that Juve was lucky to score with our two defensive mistakes, but don't make it sound like "Juve had this tie in their pocket all along." That's what buggers me more than anything else.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It is a very applaudable trait, it need not be combined with such cynicism though, IMO.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Spot on @90291Spur

Juve basically pulled a Chelsea, but everyone is waxing lyrical about what a tactical masterclass it was by the experienced side that knows what it has to do. That's complete and utter flimflam. If they had stifled us and disrupted us and we were not able to put them under any danger whatsoever, yes that would have been a tactical masterclass. But they didn't. They were under the cosh for 95% of the tie and were lucky to get away with it.

Had Harry's header been just a millimeter to the right, or had Davies been a millisecond slower to respond to Lictsteiner's run (thus putting him offside) there would have been a completely different narrative to this tie. One millimeter or one millisecond should not change the remaining 90 or 180 minutes. Call us unlucky, say that Juve was lucky to score with our two defensive mistakes, but don't make it sound like "Juve had this tie in their pocket all along." That's what buggers me more than anything else.

They were roundly beaten, for 60-70 minutes of the tie (having been beasted in the first leg).
They made some changes, caught us on the hop.
Then dug in and ground it out.

Its not a tactical masterclass by any stretch. Though, the changes made were undeniably effective and turned the game for them.

It was, basically, a smash and grab. A sucker punch.

Our faults were two fold.
1) (and it is a recurring thing) - Not being clinical enough when in the ascendancy.
2) Not adapting to their change in formation quickly enough.

Its a learning experience. I dont look on the CL campaign with any regret, we did ourselves proud.

Now we need to make sure we can focus fully on the league, and make the extra time between games count.

 

[StephenH]

Spot on @90291Spur

Juve basically pulled a Chelsea, but everyone is waxing lyrical about what a tactical masterclass it was by the experienced side that knows what it has to do. That's complete and utter flimflam. If they had stifled us and disrupted us and we were not able to put them under any danger whatsoever, yes that would have been a tactical masterclass. But they didn't. They were under the cosh for 95% of the tie and were lucky to get away with it.

Had Harry's header been just a millimeter to the right, or had Davies been a millisecond slower to respond to Lictsteiner's run (thus putting him offside) there would have been a completely different narrative to this tie. One millimeter or one millisecond should not change the remaining 90 or 180 minutes. Call us unlucky, say that Juve was lucky to score with our two defensive mistakes, but don't make it sound like "Juve had this tie in their pocket all along." That's what buggers me more than anything else.

"Juve basically pulled a Chelsea!" Spot on!!
But they are both winning teams.

We will need to learn to manage games. We will get there.

 

[StephenH]

They were roundly beaten, for 60-70 minutes of the tie (having been beasted in the first leg).
They made some changes, caught us on the hop.
Then dug in and ground it out.

Its not a tactical masterclass by any stretch. Though, the changes made were undeniably effective and turned the game for them.

It was, basically, a smash and grab. A sucker punch.

Our faults were two fold.
1) (and it is a recurring thing) - Not being clinical enough when in the ascendancy.
2) Not adapting to their change in formation quickly enough.

Its a learning experience. I dont look on the CL campaign with any regret, we did ourselves proud.

Now we need to make sure we can focus fully on the league, and make the extra time between games count.

"They were roundly beaten" they bloody should have been M8 - But we lost.

The moral high ground is for dreamers.
Poch says he one of those.........umm.

 

[alekaras]

Up until Juve scored I thought we looked in full control of the game, and actually didn't even think of defeat as a possibility - I was just calmly watching us play the ball around Juventus like they were Huddersfield. Allegri pulled som strings, put 4 at the back, which made it more difficult for us to find space in attack, but we still didn't look like conceding - maybe the players, like me, got a bit complacent, thought it was too easy, and then the concentration lapsed. You simply can't afford that at this level. We've done it a few times in the Premier League this season as well, concentration lapses resulting in conceding goals (which was probably what Allegri alluded to before the game - something we should use to motivate the lads!). If we can learn to be more cynical/concentrated/stay focused defensively (which will ultimately come with experience, I reckon, and compared to where we were only a few years back, we're clearly on our way), and become much more efficient in front of goal, we'll be better equipped for these type of matches.

Having said that - Juventus were ultimately very lucky to win that tie. Experienced and efficient, sure, but they got outplayed for 170 of 180 minutes against us. I can't for a second imagine them winning the CL, not impressed by them at all. It feels like a bit of a robbery today, very similar to how Chelski beat us in the first match of the season. We simply must learn to become more clinical and to shut up shop. Ifs and buts won't do a thing now, but I imagine if we had a fully fit Toby there last night (and in Turin), we would've walked this tie.

Overall very proud of the boys and our CL campaign. We can hold our heads up high.

This! As I replayed the game in my mind last night this is exactly the thought that came to mind: it was so easy that we got complacent and Juve took advantage of that lapse in concentration. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[alekaras]

I agree. Nevertheless, could the team have been ready, knowing that at some point Juve were going to throw everything at us? From about 60 mins is when you’d expect a losing cup team to switch it up, it’s also when your team will start to tire after working their socks off and dominating.

Having a defensive lock down plan B ready from HT might have made the difference. Even if it was deployed after their first goal. Instead the team and Poch were shell shocked. We let them smash and grab, and we didn’t defend well enough in either game.

All credit to Poch for making us a team that outplayed Juve, completely dominated them for most of the tie. Is there room for improvement? Should he be on his toes with subs fully warmed up and ready with a plan if we need to switch it up? In hindsight of course yes. They are the smallest criticisms but as a relatively young highly analytic manager I think it’s an area he will develop himself.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

The time when you would expect them to throw everything at us would have been after Sonny's goal. But they did not/could not. Nor did they come out after halftime guns blazing. So, although I partially agree with your position, I still think that the game was unfolding in such a way that didn't point to Juve even coming close to threatening us, much less scoring. If anything, we looked the more likely team to score and put the tie completely to bed. So why disrupt that by making changes?

Hindsight is wonderful, but if I were Poch, the only thing I would change would be to tell the team at halftime "this is easy, but concentrate, concentrate, concentrate!" Which he might have told them for all we know, but sometimes human nature is such that when something is too easy you take it for granted.

 

[Ade's folks are ok really]

Let's just take a moment to remember how we felt after just 10 mins in Turin.

The headlines we could see being written about Spurs. The harsh criticism from pundits. The tinkle-taking from Goons. How 'sexy' it was to collapse when facing a decent team. Our CL dream unravelling in a pathetic fashion. The drubbing we could've been handed.

But we didn't let it happen.

Last night was indeed a very bitter pill to swallow. But stay proud fellow Spurs. We can hold our heads up and no criticism from external influences should hold any gravitas at all to our club. Envy is a horrible thing you know.

 

[The_Midlands_Yid]

As painful as the result is, I think it’s a testament to the team we he become and are going to become, that we all had so much confidence going into a last sixteen tie with Juventus. I was certainly confident last night, confident in the away leg. What a team we have become to distill that level of confidence in ourselves against the literal elite of europe.

 

[elltrev]

Did they definitely switch formation with the 2 subs? At Wembley it looked like they were playing 4 at the back from day 1, and that's what Whoscored says too.

 

[Kandi1977]

This pretty much says it all

https://twitter.com/x/status/971484282752503808

We got their head in Turin, Son took their heart out at Wembley, but we didn't burn and scatter their ashes, so they resurrected.

 

[billyiddo]

Spot on @90291Spur

Juve basically pulled a Chelsea, but everyone is waxing lyrical about what a tactical masterclass it was by the experienced side that knows what it has to do. That's complete and utter flimflam. If they had stifled us and disrupted us and we were not able to put them under any danger whatsoever, yes that would have been a tactical masterclass. But they didn't. They were under the cosh for 95% of the tie and were lucky to get away with it.

Had Harry's header been just a millimeter to the right, or had Davies been a millisecond slower to respond to Lictsteiner's run (thus putting him offside) there would have been a completely different narrative to this tie. One millimeter or one millisecond should not change the remaining 90 or 180 minutes. Call us unlucky, say that Juve was lucky to score with our two defensive mistakes, but don't make it sound like "Juve had this tie in their pocket all along." That's what buggers me more than anything else.

In full agreement here - it's not a tactical masterclass if youre giving away chances and relying on the opposition fluffing their lines in front of goal.

 

[Bullet]

Chiellini was incredibly brave, strong, wily, in the right place, just like that other b*****d John JT Terry.

Dier badly hurt his right elbow when Matuidi beat him to a header and landed on him. Dier had it heavily bandaged and could not move freely for half the match, that is why his midfield presence faded.
Alli got clobbered by Chiellini, that is why he faded.
Son got clobbered by Barzagli, that is why he faded.

Allegri had a very strange idea, allowing Son to run at the 36 year old Barzagli for an hour!!! But then he changed it around and put on Leichsteiner and within seconds they were ahead.

We have the players, we have a lot of assets, but somehow it doesn't click and we don't make the most of our dominance.

We should have fallen over a lot more to kill the game off in the second half. They kicked hell out of us and then scored, we should have been stifling, boring, falling, winding them up, then breakaway with pace and score. Almost all their players were booked but none saw red. Wily.