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Moussa Sissoko

Apparently he fits our team tactics as Poch starts him so often. I struggle to believe we don’t have a single player who could replace him in the starting line up right now. Even if it means starting Lamela or Wanyama knowing you’ll have to sub them after 60 minutes because they’re not ready for the full 90 (+4).
That's what I don't get. Either Poch is poor and doesn't recognise a terrible player when he sees one, or a number of armchair fans with no coaching experience don't get it. I can't think which of the two scenarios are more likely.
 
4 key passes from Sissoko Scara. More than any of the above players, in fact the most of any of the 28 players who played - but all he does is miscontrols it, passes it to the opposition and spaz's it out of play - right?!?

Also Spurs v West Brom.... Eric Dier - 10 long balls played. Sissoko was on the bench and didn't come on. Maybe even having Sissoko on the bench is enough for Dier to have to play it long eh Scara?
You know how a key pass is measured right? Key passes are good, but if they never turn into assists then that suggests the team has poor forwards (we don't) or the key passes are of poor quality.

EDIT:

I went in search of a website that would explain this in simpler terms than I am able and stumbled across an old Statsbomb post. Ironically, it just so happens to mention our very own spazfoot:
https://statsbomb.com/2013/09/the-animal-farm-of-key-passes/

EDIT EDIT:

I looked up those key passes, and much as expected, they weren't of great value. One was a cross, two were outside the box and one was passed wide of the goal. Three of the four happened in the last two minutes, during a massive overload when both Son and Dembele were not able to take part. At that point Dier was sitting deeper and letting Wanyama do the running ahead.

spazfoot.png
 
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No, you are wrong.

Anyone who criticises him is over exaggerating, is on a mission against one of our own - and shame on you. You dont talk about other players that way do you?! Of course not. Its all way over the top and completely out of order. Its so over the top its not even close to the truth, it is simply spacegoating of a player who doesnt deserve it. A curse of being a Spurs fan. I bet you did this in the 90's as well didnt you? You are disgusting, are you even a real fan?

What you should be doing is painting yourself into a corner so badly you can never get out. You should be bending over backwards to excuse each of his many failings, while also stretching all reality to try and compensate with the few qualities he does have. And, especially, make sure you frame in such a way that its as if nobody else in the squad has those qualities.

And, finally, when he makes the team sheet again, be sure to chuck a smug "I told you so" to validate your rabid defence of him.

Its a campaign, so make sure you have the fortitude to just keep blindly plugging away. Eventually either everyone will give up even talking about it or the Sissoko will leave. At which point, of course, you will need to find a new target to defend from imaginary spacegoating.

Though I do wonder, with Sissoko gone, who that could possibly be.

Duuuuuuuuude, clearly you are incapable of understanding any nuance in what I've written, because if you were you wouldn't write that nonsense. I don't know how much more I can try to start the post off in a balanced way, while still respectfully putting across my own opinion. Only to get that douchey response from you. Cheers, real big. What, exactly is your point? That you are right about Sissoko? That he's not a good footballer? That you disagree with our manager? All fine opinions to have. All my opinion is, is that treating a Spurs player that is working hard like a joke, is not the way to be a fan. And to jump on one player more than any other when the team performs badly and that player wasn't the worst, is just unfair. I mean, talk about waiting for any below average performance to justify an 'I told you so' in a rapid criticism of him!!

For the seven billionth time, it's about outsized criticism compared to others, and building a cult around overly criticizing one player more than any other, treating them like a joke when we are fans. For instance, in the post above, the idea that he 'struggles to make a 5 yard pass' IS complete hyperbole. It's nonsense, it's rubbish and it isn't true.
 
That's what I don't get. Either Poch is poor and doesn't recognise a terrible player when he sees one, or a number of armchair fans with no coaching experience don't get it. I can't think which of the two scenarios are more likely.

On Sunday I thought it was all Poch. As soon as I saw the teamsheet I sighed.

And not necessarily because Sissoko was on it, but because he went with a defensive midfield 3 that I just knew wouldnt provide anything to the forwards.

I feel like its Pochs safety first instincts, he tends to play safe a bit too much for my tastes. I felt we should have played 2 of that 3 and had Lamela on the pitch as well. And yes, of the 3 Id have dropped Sissoko, but even if he started instead of Dembele I think the 2 man composition was key.

As to his performance, I think Scara describes very well how I feel about it. I think its in the intangibles in a lot of ways, which of course stats are no good for. As he says, its the "what he isnt doing" stuff.
 
4 key passes from Sissoko Scara. More than any of the above players, in fact the most of any of the 28 players who played - but all he does is miscontrols it, passes it to the opposition and spaz's it out of play - right?!?

Also Spurs v West Brom.... Eric Dier - 10 long balls played. Sissoko was on the bench and didn't come on. Maybe even having Sissoko on the bench is enough for Dier to have to play it long eh Scara?

It is actually awkward to read one person articulately debate with stats and balanced, rational viewpoints...and watch the other side try to stretch so far to justify the criticism.

The key point has always been, he isn't doing any worse than other players on the team but is taking an unfair share (and an unfair load) of the criticism. He isn't a technical player but he does add value, people just don't want to see it.
 
You know how a key pass is measured right? Key passes are good, but if they never turn into assists then that suggests the team has poor forwards (we don't) or the key passes are of poor quality.

EDIT:

I went in search of a website that would explain this in simpler terms than I am able and stumbled across an old Statsbomb post. Ironically, it just so happens to mention our very own spazfoot:
https://statsbomb.com/2013/09/the-animal-farm-of-key-passes/

EDIT EDIT:

I looked up those key passes, and much as expected, they weren't of great value. Three of the four happened in the last two minutes, during a massive overload when both Son and Dembele were not able to take part. At that point Dier was sitting deeper and letting Wanyama do the running ahead.

View attachment 4038
I could be wrong but I think a key pass is the pass immediately prior to a shot being taken? I agree that it doesn't tell the full story, stats rarely do unless they have the huge amount of necessary context applied to them.

Interesting that you didn't think the key passes were of great value. I thought that our best chance of the game (sans Kane's goal) was Lamela's one late on where Sissoko played it to him. I can't say that I recall the other three to be honest, so they probably were not really key passes. in saying that though I don't remember a single other real key pass played by Spurs in the whole game other that Ali's to Kane in the dying seconds.
 
Duuuuuuuuude, clearly you are incapable of understanding any nuance in what I've written, because if you were you wouldn't write that nonsense. I don't know how much more I can try to start the post off in a balanced way, while still respectfully putting across my own opinion. Only to get that douchey response from you. Cheers, real big. What, exactly is your point? That you are right about Sissoko? That he's not a good footballer? That you disagree with our manager? All fine opinions to have. All my opinion is, is that treating a Spurs player that is working hard like a joke, is not the way to be a fan. And to jump on one player more than any other when the team performs badly and that player wasn't the worst, is just unfair. I mean, talk about waiting for any below average performance to justify an 'I told you so' in a rapid criticism of him!!

For the seven billionth time, it's about outsized criticism compared to others, and building a cult around overly criticizing one player more than any other, treating them like a joke when we are fans. For instance, in the post above, the idea that he 'struggles to make a 5 yard pass' IS complete hyperbole. It's nonsense, it's rubbish and it isn't true.

I honestly think if you were to read back through this thread in the future, maybe a year or so, sometime after Sissoko is gone anyway, you would realise just how unbalanced your view is.

My post was taking the tinkle, yes, but only to the effect that I wanted to emphasise how people are coming across in his defence.

Its classic tinternet stuff, opposing views get more and more opposed to top the other. Actual reality is long since abandoned.

Heres the thing though, while the criticism of Sissoko sometimes has some colourful language, it is entirely valid. Ive seen very little in critique of him that I thought was unreasonable. Save for some of that exaggeration used for effect.

However, the defence? Its ridiculous.

Now I certainly respect the idea he is a player and deserves support. And I respect that you dislike fans getting on a players back. Very commendable.
I just think youve picked the wrong player to pin your colours to on this campaign. And it has become a campaign.

Look at it, the defence amounts to
- Poch picks him, so ner ner .
- He runs a lot.
- He does some unspecified yet specific job.
- You cant expect him to shoot, pass, dribble or control the ball.
- You can only expect him to do a defensive shift.

Its really scraping the barrel.

We have a player we can only expect to run and press and give it simple, nothing more. And thats entirely deserving of him being in the side. Despite the fact the whole team does exactly those things as a basic premise of making the team - as well as adding lots more in addition.

This is a team where putting in the yards and working defensively is a prerequisite of playing, its the absolute bare minimum for all players.

And its also the most we can hope for from Sissoko.

As to jumping into the thread to stick it too him, I actually havent. I havent been in this thread for a couple of weeks. No "I told you so" from me.

My point was more in the extremes of his defence, it just isnt credible and smacks, IMO, of "winning the internet" than genuine points. As though some have boxed themselves so far into a corner they have no other choice.

Ive said many times, I am not invested in him being bad. Id love for him to come good. I dont have an agenda, I can only comment on what I see. And basically everytime he plays I see our team missing out - a lot. Upthread Scara points it out very well.

And heres the twist - most of the criticism really isnt outsized, you just refuse to accept it. The defence however?
 
So what I watched on Sunday was actually a good performance by Sissoko then?

It was apparently not as bad as others, so you should focus on them instead.

Or maybe if you want to complain about Sissoko you should also go into the Son, Dier and Alli threads and complain about them for the sake of balance.

Son, Dier and Alli being accepted as having been worse than him. And maybe Sanchez.

I dont know what happens if you complain about someone not on the worse than Sissoko list, could be cataclysmic
 
I honestly think if you were to read back through this thread in the future, maybe a year or so, sometime after Sissoko is gone anyway, you would realise just how unbalanced your view is.

My post was taking the tinkle, yes, but only to the effect that I wanted to emphasise how people are coming across in his defence.

Its classic tinternet stuff, opposing views get more and more opposed to top the other. Actual reality is long since abandoned.

Heres the thing though, while the criticism of Sissoko sometimes has some colourful language, it is entirely valid. Ive seen very little in critique of him that I thought was unreasonable. Save for some of that exaggeration used for effect.

However, the defence? Its ridiculous.

Now I certainly respect the idea he is a player and deserves support. And I respect that you dislike fans getting on a players back. Very commendable.
I just think youve picked the wrong player to pin your colours to on this campaign. And it has become a campaign.

Look at it, the defence amounts to
- Poch picks him, so ner ner .
- He runs a lot.
- He does some unspecified yet specific job.
- You cant expect him to shoot, pass, dribble or control the ball.
- You can only expect him to do a defensive shift.

Its really scraping the barrel.

We have a player we can only expect to run and press and give it simple, nothing more. And thats entirely deserving of him being in the side. Despite the fact the whole team does exactly those things as a basic premise of making the team - as well as adding lots more in addition.

This is a team where putting in the yards and working defensively is a prerequisite of playing, its the absolute bare minimum for all players.

And its also the most we can hope for from Sissoko.

As to jumping into the thread to stick it too him, I actually havent. I havent been in this thread for a couple of weeks. No "I told you so" from me.

My point was more in the extremes of his defence, it just isnt credible and smacks, IMO, of "winning the internet" than genuine points. As though some have boxed themselves so far into a corner they have no other choice.

Ive said many times, I am not invested in him being bad. Id love for him to come good. I dont have an agenda, I can only comment on what I see. And basically everytime he plays I see our team missing out - a lot. Upthread Scara points it out very well.

And heres the twist - most of the criticism really isnt outsized, you just refuse to accept it. The defence however?

The defence amounts to opinions, and then thanks to Finney actual stats, that he is not worse than others on the team. Yes you can expect him to pass and control. Yes, the fact that Poch consistently picks him does matter. Yes, he runs a lot and yes, he puts in a good defensive shift.

It’s really hard not to see that he takes a bunch more criticism for a bunch more things - he has much less leeway than any other player despite not being much worse than any other player. It is outsized.
 
The defence amounts to opinions, and then thanks to Finney actual stats, that he is not worse than others on the team. Yes you can expect him to pass and control. Yes, the fact that Poch consistently picks him does matter. Yes, he runs a lot and yes, he puts in a good defensive shift.

It’s really hard not to see that he takes a bunch more criticism for a bunch more things - he has much less leeway than any other player despite not being much worse than any other player. It is outsized.
The reason other players get a pass now and then when they have a poor game or run of games is that they've all performed at a very high level before. Playing them makes sense because they will probably show that ability again.

Sissoko, even on his very best days is playing at a lower level than the rest on their worst.
 
The defence amounts to opinions, and then thanks to Finney actual stats, that he is not worse than others on the team. Yes you can expect him to pass and control. Yes, the fact that Poch consistently picks him does matter. Yes, he runs a lot and yes, he puts in a good defensive shift.

It’s really hard not to see that he takes a bunch more criticism for a bunch more things - he has much less leeway than any other player despite not being much worse than any other player. It is outsized.

And this is where you are unable to understand the nuance of what people say in opposition.

From what Ive seen, they can all see he works hard, they can all see he puts in a defensive shift - they just dont think its enough or that he is good enough.

He gets criticism because he is the worst footballer we have, and it shows, despite his best efforts.

I think, personally, he was just fundamentally a bad buy. He never suited our team, and I dont think he ever will. Thats not his fault, we should never have taken him, its just the reality of the situation as I see it. And all the best wishes in the world arent going to change that.

Stats? Completely open to interpretation, and unless you are arguing in the right context with them (and with respect, few ever do) they really arent worth as much as people like to think.

He has less leeway because he hasnt earned any. He hasnt contributed enough. He hasnt shown he has more to offer. When (if!) he starts doing that, watch him get some leeway. I dont see him ever getting there, but I do believe if he does improve and does start to really contribute attitudes will change.

I am not invested in him being bad, despite what you might think. Id rather not pick him out, Id like to come in here and say "bloody hell he was good wasnt he?!". I do not post to an agenda, only what I see in front of me.

And what I see is most certainly not the player you describe in your attempts to stick up for him.
 
I honestly think if you were to read back through this thread in the future, maybe a year or so, sometime after Sissoko is gone anyway, you would realise just how unbalanced your view is.

My post was taking the tinkle, yes, but only to the effect that I wanted to emphasise how people are coming across in his defence.

Its classic tinternet stuff, opposing views get more and more opposed to top the other. Actual reality is long since abandoned.

Heres the thing though, while the criticism of Sissoko sometimes has some colourful language, it is entirely valid. Ive seen very little in critique of him that I thought was unreasonable. Save for some of that exaggeration used for effect.

However, the defence? Its ridiculous.

Now I certainly respect the idea he is a player and deserves support. And I respect that you dislike fans getting on a players back. Very commendable.
I just think youve picked the wrong player to pin your colours to on this campaign. And it has become a campaign.

Look at it, the defence amounts to
- Poch picks him, so ner ner .
- He runs a lot.
- He does some unspecified yet specific job.
- You cant expect him to shoot, pass, dribble or control the ball.
- You can only expect him to do a defensive shift.

Its really scraping the barrel.

We have a player we can only expect to run and press and give it simple, nothing more. And thats entirely deserving of him being in the side. Despite the fact the whole team does exactly those things as a basic premise of making the team - as well as adding lots more in addition.

This is a team where putting in the yards and working defensively is a prerequisite of playing, its the absolute bare minimum for all players.

And its also the most we can hope for from Sissoko.

As to jumping into the thread to stick it too him, I actually havent. I havent been in this thread for a couple of weeks. No "I told you so" from me.

My point was more in the extremes of his defence, it just isnt credible and smacks, IMO, of "winning the internet" than genuine points. As though some have boxed themselves so far into a corner they have no other choice.

Ive said many times, I am not invested in him being bad. Id love for him to come good. I dont have an agenda, I can only comment on what I see. And basically everytime he plays I see our team missing out - a lot. Upthread Scara points it out very well.

And heres the twist - most of the criticism really isnt outsized, you just refuse to accept it. The defence however?
See I see things completely differently to you. I would say that most of those defending Sissoko make pretty reasonable, balanced points. I don’t think I have seen a single person say that they think he is one of our better players, I haven’t seen anyone say that he would be a first choice 11 player if everyone was fit, I don’t think I have even seen anyone claim that they wouldn’t be happy to upgrade him in the squad. I think that most of the defence of Sissoko is simply centred around him constantly being targeted as the worst performer in games when he clearly isn’t.

Conversely I would say that some of the attacks are ridiculous. Comments such as him always being the worst out of the combined 22 on the pitch, or him constantly ‘spazing it out of play’, or him always giving it to the opposition, or not being able to play a 5 yard pass. Those things are simply untrue. He wouldn't have had a decent career in professional football if that were the case.

I see that you childishly label one of the ‘ridiculous defences’ as: ‘Poch picks him, so ner ner’. I am genuinely interested as to why you think that Poch might do so? and not just Pochettino but also the Saudi Sportswashing Machine managers before him and even Didier Deschamps who had a large number of talented players to choose from? Do you think that they all do so as they are clueless, or do you concede that just maybe the player may have some qualities that you just do not notice? Perhaps because you don’t have as deep an understanding of the technical aspects of football as people such as Pochettino, etc?
 
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The reason other players get a pass now and then when they have a poor game or run of games is that they've all performed at a very high level before. Playing them makes sense because they will probably show that ability again.

Sissoko, even on his very best days is playing at a lower level than the rest on their worst.

Which of course is to assume that he really is consistently the worst in the coaches’ opinions, which probably isn’t the case.

And the objective of the debate is not to then say ‘Poch picks him, so there’ and end it there. It’s to maybe ask the question of why he picks him, and have an interesting discussion around that, allowing us to go a little bit deeper in our analysis and discussion rather than hopping around on a level that is quite basic, because we are assuming that what we know and see is as much as what the coaches see.
 
Which of course is to assume that he really is consistently the worst in the coaches’ opinions, which probably isn’t the case.

And the objective of the debate is not to then say ‘Poch picks him, so there’ and end it there. It’s to maybe ask the question of why he picks him, and have an interesting discussion around that, allowing us to go a little bit deeper in our analysis and discussion rather than hopping around on a level that is quite basic, because we are assuming that what we know and see is as much as what the coaches see.
I think it's clear why Poch picks him - it's a mistake. Better managers have picked (marginally) worse players - it happens sometimes.
 
FML he’s played 32 times this season.

We wonder why we are struggling.
We are struggling because we have missed our best defender through injury whilst our best defensive midfielder is just returning from long term injury, put that together with Dembele and Dier's form being inconsistent and Dele overplaying. All these things affect our form more than a performance from Sissoko.

My disappointment with Sissoko is not the chances he misses, every player in the team misses chances, it's rather that he is so timid in his performances. He's a big, fast guy he should strike terror into the opposition when he runs at them, except he doesn't do it enough. Instead he just looks awkward on the ball. I want to see more courage from him.

That said with the criticism that goes with every touch he makes it's hardly surprising all he does is play safe.
 
See I see things completely differently to you. I would say that most of those defending Sissoko make pretty reasonable, balanced points. I don’t think I have seen a single person say that they think he is one of our better players, I haven’t seen anyone say that he would be a first choice 11 player if everyone was fit, I don’t think I have even seen anyone claim that they wouldn’t be happy to upgrade him in the squad. I think that most of the defence of Sissoko is simply centred around him constantly being targeted as the worst performer in games when he clearly isn’t.

Conversely I would say that some of the attacks are ridiculous. Comments such as him always being the worst out of the combined 22 on the pitch, or him constantly ‘spazing it out of play’, or him always giving it to the opposition, or not being able to play a 5 yard pass. Those things are simply untrue.

I see that you childishly label one of the ‘ridiculous defences’ as: ‘Poch picks him, so ner ner’. I am genuinely interested as to why you think that Poch might do so? and not just Pochettino but also the Saudi Sportswashing Machine managers before him and even Didier Deschamps who had a large number of talented players to choose from? Do you think that they all do so as they are clueless, or do you concede that just maybe the player may have some qualities that you just do not notice? Perhaps because you don’t have as deep an understanding of the technical aspects of football as people such as Pochettino, etc?

I cant speak to Saudi Sportswashing Machine or France, I simply dont care enough about them to have paid enough attention to form an opinion. Though if I were to be pushed on it, Id suggest play-style is a big factor and he likely suits them far more than us.

For us? I think primarily he has played thanks to our injuries in midfield. I think had Winks, Dembele and Wanyama been fit all season we simply wouldnt have seen Sissoko. He has played by default, not preference.

I do appreciate he has had a few games where defensively he has been a real asset, so I can see Poch making use for him in the odd games where that is required. Our next CL game, wouldnt surprise me to see him in there like at Madrid.

I think it was the case 50/50 at the weekend. Were Wanyama fully fit I dont think Sissoko would have played, that being said Poch likes to play safe away from home and so Sissoko playing in a defensive capacity was legitimate. Although, on the day, I think he was poor defensively.

I dont think those attacks are ridiculous, at least not all. There have been games where I thought he was the worst footballer on the field. He does knock it out of play. His passing is often poor. His control is often terrible. He does often lose the ball easily via bad pass/control/running into trouble. Thats not to say he is the only player that does this, or that its all he ever does, but its certainly frequent enough that it is noticeable and people pick up on it.

All players miss control, miss pass etc, very few end up with it being a feature of their game you repeatedly pick up on. For that to be the case, there must be something to it, do you not think?

When you start to pick up on it, you watch closer, and you start to see where his slow reaction lead to a lost chance, where his poor control lead to a good position being lost, where momentum all but stops with him far more frequently than with anyone else, where (despite doing a decent job defensively) his poor positioning leaves us exposed or him out of the game... It goes on, and the more you watch the more those early observations are confirmed.

Now Im sure you will be thinking "if youre looking for it then of course youll see it", but believe me - I want to see him doing well. And, if he wasnt so frequently doing these things my initial thoughts wouldnt be getting confirmed, would they?

As Ive said to BoL, I have nothing to gain from criticising him or him being poor, Im not invested in it. And Id love for him to start stepping up the levels and really making a big impact. Id love him to prove me wrong, if he does it means Spurs are better off so Id be delighted.

And lets be clear - I do not fancy myself a tactical genius. At all. I dont consider my football thinking beyond the layman or anything like that. Which is why, fundamentally, I just dont understand the defence of him.

Its so obvious the ways in which he is poor, why all the excuses?

Which is why Im more inclined to see it as some sort of internet sport. Polarised opinions people take up a cause on and things just get completely out of perspective.
 
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