Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[billyiddo]

I would say this Chelsea don't have a winning mentality. If they did they wouldn't have such ups and downs from season to season. It suggests a fragile mentality. They have some very good players who do very well when confident and on a winning run, enabling them to win titles. A bad start and their season falls apart.

I would also say Leicester have a winning mentality. They kept winning when the whole world said they couldn't. The reason they couldn't keep challenging for the titles was they don't have enough good players and some were raided. They are still difficult to beat, even for the top sides.

would agree on Leicester - i think it was something which was instilled the season before they won the league when they went on that amazing run to avoid relegation and then it carried on/developed from there, had a lot of things go their way of course and even if they had ultimately fallen short or one of the bigger/richer sides had a normal season and won the league with Leicester performing to exactly the same level - there would be no way you could question the mentality of that side.


edit : also think if you were to transport this Tottenham team to that season then we'd probably have won the league ourselves

 

[The egyptian]

I am so sorry, this is boring. You have to move argument to the wining mentality thread or whatever you want the name to be.

 

[Baleforce]

is winning mentality the new world class Andy?

 

[parklane1]

hell of a lot of this going on in here

 

[billyiddo]

a valuable contribution, as always

 

[Seedy Ron]

I am so sorry, this is boring. You have to move argument to the wining mentality thread or whatever you want the name to be.

I've decided to go and climb Everest, just to get away from the winning mentality debate.

If I find one up there I'll post it to Poch at Spurs Lodge (the re-direct is probably still in place).

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Im not saying winning trophies are irrelevant, I want to win as many as possible.

Im saying winning trophies is irrelevant, in the context of our winning mentality. We already have it. Winning would be affirmation of it, for those unable to view life outside of black and white, but it changes nothing. We have a winning mentality, to win in a final we would display that winning mentality - just as we did Sunday - and after the final our mentality is as it was. It wont have miraculously changed.

As already stated, Pochs comments have plenty of wiggle room. You would have to be pretty dense to take them as literal, especially when English isnt even his first language.

Winning games away like this does build a winning mentality. To say we are building a winning mentality is not to say we dont have one. It is to say we are building up what we have.

In a competitive environment I would expect no less than to ALWAYS be building on it. I would not expect to have one game, one day when *ping* we miraculously have one.

To continue the theme on Poch's point, winning a trophy, or winning the big away games at the Bernabau or Stamford Bridge doesn't suddenly mean we have arrived at the end-game, and need no more cultivation or development of that same winning mentality. It is a constant thing, which is what Poch is saying. He absolutely doesn't want us to be a team that wins one game and claims we have it, or even wins one trophy and claims we have arrived. It is constant maintenance.

@Pirate55 , you are arguing we need to win a trophy, which is fair enough, but it is not the same as proving we have a winning mentality. As everyone else says, winning a trophy would be an example of something that could happen because we have one, but so does winning the kind of game we won at Stamford Bridge, or coming through a 4 game stretch of Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Juventus looking like a top quality side and fully deserving everything we got from those games. And just because we did really well in that period, it doesn't mean we will have one forever, or that we have arrived at the end game. It is constant maintenance, constantly achieving the highest of standards, and never letting them drop. Winning a trophy doesn't prove we have it, or that we then have a grace period with it before it falls away and we need to develop it again. It is a constant.

We have as much winning mentality as anyone in England right now IMO, we are already showing that.

 

[thfcsteff]

I hope no-one ever tries to summit Everest with P55. His “winning mentality” 2000 feet from the summit with an incoming storm is not a good formula...


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[harr1984]

what differentiates having a winning mentality and winning trophies, in light of the above? because to me it just sounds like you're using the two interchangeably

do Chelsea have a winning mentality?

they won the league last season, they're the current champions of England - if the Champions of England don't have a winning mentality who does? if they do, why are they 5th getting beat at home to a Spurs team that is so far away from having a winning mentality the idea that they do is laughable? did they get a winning mentality but lost it in the celebrations?

do City have a winning mentality? all they have won under Guardiola so far is the league cup, we've already established that winning one trophy, especially the league cup, doesn't give you a winning mentality and we know that you can't have a winning mentality until you've won something (just not a cup competition, or a league if you're Chelsea or Leicester) so when can we say they have a winning mentality? once they've won the league? Once they've won the league twice on the spin? when?

do Arsenal have a winning mentality? 3 cups in 4 years coming in to this season, two of them coming when they were underdogs, the greatest FA Cup record of them all, id certainly like to win 3 FA Cups in 4 years - if we won 3 FA Cups in 4 years would we then have that winning mentality? would the type of winning mentality that this current Arsenal team display be the missing ingredient that takes us up a level or two, like it has them?

Liverpool - no trophies in a long old while but have a good record against the big teams and do well once they have fallen behind, do they have it?

Man United, they won 3 trophies last season etc etc


do people really think any of those sides have a better mentality than us? that if you somehow transplanted that one thing from their players/coaches mindset that we so obviously lack that we'd see us jump up a level or two? is mentality really what is holding this team back? Are we even being held back? are we not just a very good team competing with other very good teams for a limited number of trophies?

Can we even as a club be expected to be a dominating force? what happens in a hypothetical scenario where we win the league/cup whatever and then City and United go out blow their huge piles of money on the best players around and it all falls in to place and they over take us? will it be because we lacked the mentality to repeat the achievement or would it be because we're just up against clubs with far too much money to fall behind for too long

if Leicester and Chelsea don't have a winning mentality, or Arsenal and whoever else then what the hell is it that you're actually expecting?

I’ve bowed out of this discussion because it’s a pointless one to debate. It’s just about your interpretation, much the same as the phrase world class and there is no right or wrong answer. And frankly I dont know why it’s got to this stage and is still going on. We all recognise our mentality is getting stronger and stronger so who really cares? But my honest opinion is that neither side can definitively say we have a winning mentality or not until a period of time after the present. Why? Because surely you guys acknowledge if we do have a winning mentality then we are going to have to end up winning some trophies and not just a single cup, a sustained period of success. Not literally winning the league every year, but like most of the other top clubs they’ve all collected a trophy or two every other year or so even when not at their strongest because they essentially still have that mentality in them.Then you can look back and say yes, we definitely had it. You’re completely right that a winning mentality doesn’t just appear out of nowhere but all Pirate is saying is it’s something that is developed and the end result and evidence is the glory land of trophies. If we don’t achieve this in the future I don’t see how you could claim we have a winning mentality and not win anything it just doesn’t make sense to me. That’s just my opinion, I don’t have any issues with you guys thinking otherwise....

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I’ve bowed out of this discussion because it’s a pointless one to debate. It’s just about your interpretation, much the same as the phrase world class and there is no right or wrong answer. And frankly I dont know why it’s got to this stage and is still going on. We all recognise our mentality is getting stronger and stronger so who really cares? But my honest opinion is that neither side can definitively say we have a winning mentality or not until a period of time after the present. Why? Because surely you guys acknowledge if we do have a winning mentality then we are going to have to end up winning some trophies and not just a single cup, a sustained period of success. Not literally winning the league every year, but like most of the other top clubs they’ve all collected a trophy or two every other year or so even when not at their strongest because they essentially still have that mentality in them.Then you can look back and say yes, we definitely had it. You’re completely right that a winning mentality doesn’t just appear out of nowhere but all Pirate is saying is it’s something that is developed and the end result and evidence is the glory land of trophies. If we don’t achieve this in the future I don’t see how you could claim we have a winning mentality and not win anything it just doesn’t make sense to me. That’s just my opinion, I don’t have any issues with you guys thinking otherwise....

But maybe Chelsea won the League because they had no Europe after finishing 10th the year before? Maybe Arsenal win the FA Cups because they have nice draws or have nothing else to play for because they've fallen so far behind in the League?

Look at us under Sherwood and latter day AVB, the last full season of real old-style, 'best of the rest', 'lacking a winning mentality' Spurs. Absolutely pathetic capitulations in games where we could concede one goal, heads would noticeably drop and we would take a hiding. Vertonghen looking like he is waiting for a bus as we're about to walk out at Anfield. This stuff just does not happen any more. If anything, we are spoken of as the dirty team, the team that tackles too hard, that always seems to win because the refs just happen to be on our side, or because we just will not lie down and take it. We may lose games, but we never, ever fail to compete anymore. That is the difference. (the exception obviously being the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 5-1, but I think we are all aware of the unique circumstances surrounding that game).

There are 2 really meaningful trophies we can win and we have only actually been in the CL twice under Poch. We have reached finals and semi-finals already under him. We probably will win a trophy under him at some point and it will be great. But does not winning a huge number of games, consistently over the period he has been manager show that we have raised our standards to the point where we expect to win? Easy games. Hard games. Derbies. League rivals. Teams that sit back. Teams that attack us. European heavyweights. No European Hangovers. Going a goal or two behind and coming back to win. Going 1-0 up and absolutely pummeling poor teams. Going a goal up and continuing to pile the pressure on otherwise good teams.

We have had more positive weekends than fans of any other club over the last 3 years, and that is because we have won more games. That mentality and focus and ability to believe that we need to keep going and that nothing is just good enough surely has to represent the winning mentality. If we get a domestic cup - great. But we may end up winning one of those by playing exclusively bottom half PL teams for the entire run. We may lose to United because they get a header from a corner and De Gea plays a blinder. What's important is the overall picture, of where our standards are now.

 

[harr1984]

But maybe Chelsea won the League because they had no Europe after finishing 10th the year before? Maybe Arsenal win the FA Cups because they have nice draws or have nothing else to play for because they've fallen so far behind in the League?

Look at us under Sherwood and latter day AVB, the last full season of real old-style, 'best of the rest', 'lacking a winning mentality' Spurs. Absolutely pathetic capitulations in games where we could concede one goal, heads would noticeably drop and we would take a hiding. Vertonghen looking like he is waiting for a bus as we're about to walk out at Anfield. This stuff just does not happen any more. If anything, we are spoken of as the dirty team, the team that tackles too hard, that always seems to win because the refs just happen to be on our side, or because we just will not lie down and take it. We may lose games, but we never, ever fail to compete anymore. That is the difference. (the exception obviously being the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 5-1, but I think we are all aware of the unique circumstances surrounding that game).

There are 2 really meaningful trophies we can win and we have only actually been in the CL twice under Poch. We have reached finals and semi-finals already under him. We probably will win a trophy under him at some point and it will be great. But does not winning a huge number of games, consistently over the period he has been manager show that we have raised our standards to the point where we expect to win? Easy games. Hard games. Derbies. League rivals. Teams that sit back. Teams that attack us. European heavyweights. No European Hangovers. Going a goal or two behind and coming back to win. Going 1-0 up and absolutely pummeling poor teams. Going a goal up and continuing to pile the pressure on otherwise good teams.

We have had more positive weekends than fans of any other club over the last 3 years, and that is because we have won more games. That mentality and focus and ability to believe that we need to keep going and that nothing is just good enough surely has to represent the winning mentality. If we get a domestic cup - great. But we may end up winning one of those by playing exclusively bottom half PL teams for the entire run. We may lose to United because they get a header from a corner and De Gea plays a blinder. What's important is the overall picture, of where our standards are now.

Look I’m not going to agree ever, hence why I bowed out of it. We have a strong mentality no one is arguing with that. If you’re happy claiming a team has a winning mentality yet never actually win a trophy then fine, I just happen to disagree....

 

[DeleHarry]

We have a great team, a great manager.....they have done fantastically well to grow, perform, challenge like they have over the last 3-4 years. All that is missing is some silverware, medals. Nobody wants them to be remembered as the best team not have won anything, imo

 

[billyiddo]

I’ve bowed out of this discussion because it’s a pointless one to debate. It’s just about your interpretation, much the same as the phrase world class and there is no right or wrong answer. And frankly I dont know why it’s got to this stage and is still going on. We all recognise our mentality is getting stronger and stronger so who really cares? But my honest opinion is that neither side can definitively say we have a winning mentality or not until a period of time after the present. Why? Because surely you guys acknowledge if we do have a winning mentality then we are going to have to end up winning some trophies and not just a single cup, a sustained period of success. Not literally winning the league every year, but like most of the other top clubs they’ve all collected a trophy or two every other year or so even when not at their strongest because they essentially still have that mentality in them.Then you can look back and say yes, we definitely had it. You’re completely right that a winning mentality doesn’t just appear out of nowhere but all Pirate is saying is it’s something that is developed and the end result and evidence is the glory land of trophies. If we don’t achieve this in the future I don’t see how you could claim we have a winning mentality and not win anything it just doesn’t make sense to me. That’s just my opinion, I don’t have any issues with you guys thinking otherwise....

the bolded part is the crux of the issue - we can, through no fault of our own, not have a sustained period of success - the chances of us having actually having a period like that while the league is stacked how it is are very slim, that's not because we lack in the mentality department it's because there are 2 of the worlds richest clubs in our league who can blow us out of the water when it comes to player/staff recruitment, once you get beyond those 2 clubs you then have 4 others who can pay much more than us too - to hold mentality up as a reason for us not succeeding over a prolonged period of time when up against it like that i find quite insulting and kind of goes against what i have seen these past couple of seasons from the team.

if by this line :

most of the other top clubs they’ve all collected a trophy or two every other year or so even when not at their strongest because they essentially still have that mentality in them

you're suggesting Arsenal/United/Chelsea currently have the winning mentality that we should be aspiring to then yes there is little to no chance of us ever agreeing on this topic as i just don't see where you are separating winning trophies from mentality - which is what this conversation keeps coming back to.

 

[parklane1]

you're suggesting Arsenal/United/Chelsea currently have the winning mentality that we should be aspiring to then yes there is little to no chance of us ever agreeing on this topic as i just don't see where you are separating winning trophies from mentality - which is what this conversation keeps coming back to.

Lets make it simpler then, have/wanting a winners mentality is one thing, becoming winners ( winning a trophy) is another thing altogether and until we achieve that then we really do not have that winners/ winning mentality.

If you can not see/admit that then i guess you will never see the difference.

 

[billyiddo]

Lets make it simpler then, have/wanting a winners mentality is one thing, becoming winners ( winning a trophy) is another thing altogether and until we achieve that then we really do not have that winners/ winning mentality.

If you can not see/admit that then i guess you will never see the difference.

is that supposed to make sense?

 

[parklane1]

is that supposed to make sense?

Well i suppose it all depends on who is reading it.

 

[Hootnow]

I can't quite get my head around people claiming a team which has won no trophies (yet) has a winning mentality.

That isn't to say that we won't win anything. It isn't to say that our mentality isn't clearly infinitely better than it was even a few years ago. It isn't to say that winning a trophy automatically gives you a winning mentality.

I honestly think that some people would still be claiming we have a winning mentality if we're having this same discussion five years down the line with (GHod forbid) no trophies.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

silverware

I can't quite get my head around people claiming a team which has won no trophies (yet) has a winning mentality.

That isn't to say that we won't win anything. It isn't to say that our mentality isn't clearly infinitely better than it was even a few years ago. It isn't to say that winning a trophy automatically gives you a winning mentality.

I honestly think that some people would still be claiming we have a winning mentality if we're having this same discussion five years down the line with (GHod forbid) no trophies.

Because there are 4 trophies. One of which is the League. One of which is the CL. Both of those we are competing with clubs far wealthier than us who are able to build the squads that they would hope sustain them over the course of a full season.

The domestic cups have been won by teams that have been relegated in the same year. In the modern era. I don't think Wigan or Birmingham proved any sort of winning mentality by winning them.

If we are genuinely competing for the PL and CL, then I think it's fair to say we have one. Or certainly there won't be many other teams that do, if we don't have one in that instance. Especially if we are doing it consistently, season after season.

 

[billyiddo]

Well i suppose it all depends on who is reading it.

so, Arsenal then, 3 cups in 4 years - they have the mentality we are striving for? yes/no
United, won a treble last season - we should be looking to match their mentality? yes/no
Chelsea, Champions of England - they are mentally on a higher plane than us? yes/no

or is it just possible that it's the trophies they have won that we want and not the mentality they possess (or more like don't possess if you'd spent any time at all following them the past few seasons)

if those sides have a mentality that we are lacking then frankly it is a mentality i think we can do without

 

[Hootnow]

Back on topic though, Poch really got it spot on against Chelsea.

Starting line up, tactical changes, subs. Just an incredible performance from him and really cements our top 4 spot.