But if we admit that Sanchez, Lucas, Winks, Gazza are all part of the usable squad, then what happens to the narrative that the squad has never been refreshed?
It can't work both ways ..
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
But if we admit that Sanchez, Lucas, Winks, Gazza are all part of the usable squad, then what happens to the narrative that the squad has never been refreshed?
It can't work both ways ..
The TEAM the first XI that is what has gotten weaker.
Compare the make up of our first XI/squad to our rivals with regards to how many players from 4/5 years ago remain - we are way out in front more than double that of the closest side (iirc) - this is what is meant by not being refreshed and personally i can see why it will/can have a negative effect on things and i think we've just reached a tipping point with that.
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Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Plus Sissoko.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
And not helped by the coach constantly rotating and using different tactics and formations the whole time.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Billy, take a breath mate. If this board is at a point where people cant even spot a flippant crack a mile away then I dont know what to say.
Might be time to sit back and watch it unfold for a while. It stops being fun when everyone is so serious that every post needs dissection.
Poch is not without blame for his managment of the hand he has been dealt the past year or so
Robspur12
John Lacy
3 players refresh a squad which has lost 2 key defensive players in Dembele and Wanyama, has effectively lost both it's top class full backs and its most creative player? Ok.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
On that I will agree.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
And that goes to my point about Poch changing the narrative from "team" to "squad". He seems to have undermined himself when it no longer becomes a meritocracy, but rotation for rotations sake to in order too try (but evidently fail) to keep all the players happy. I think we could all name the first XIs of Pool and City with very little differences between us. Trying to name Poch's first choice team at the moment would likely lead to major discrepancies between us.
Im not overly concerned with micro analysing what we're getting wrong atm as i think we're caught between a rock and a hard place with a lot of decisions that need to be made.
Robspur12
John Lacy
Don't get your point here? Are you saying Poch has mismanaged them? Because that is patently untrue.
Sanchez started well in an entirely different league to the one he had played in. He had a poor season last year but he is a right sided Centre back and our problems are well documented with our right full back, not to mention the midfield protection on front of him. The problems have not been solved this season yet but Aurier minus the brain farts is better than Trippier. Sanchez has looked really good in the last 2 games.
Lucas, has looked very good in spells, but we are blessed with a lot of competition amongst his type of player. Who is he going to displace? He is not better than Son and according to your posts in his thread, you rate Lamela very highly. I personally rate Dele highly albeit he is off form. The player we cannot easily replace/rotate has always been Eriksen. Until Ndombele and Lo Celso get up to speed that will remain the case. Maybe that is why Poch keeps playing Eriksen
Foyth, a young inexperienced but very talented young CB/FB. Not ready yet, has to be managed carefully which he has been.
Aurier, when he has not been injured has been Ok but not as good as Walker and is reckless.
Our problem areas are still Right full back and defensive midfield neither of which have been replaced with the same quality player that was lost let alone a better one.
Let's compare to City and Pool. Both needed new keepers, they went out and bought better than they had in Ederson and Allison. They needed centre halves so they bought better than they had in La Porte and Van Dyke. They needed midfielders so Liverpool bought three, Winaldum, Fabinho and Keita. Emirates Marketing Project bought Gungdogen and Rodri. In general the top teams buy better than they have. We have only really started to do that this last transfer window.
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Mate, I'm saying you can't have conflicting narratives
- The squad hasn't been refreshed since Toby & Son and hence the lack of freshness is killing us (vs. manager issues)
Yet in that time
- Gazza, Sissoko, Sanchez, Foyth, Lucas, Aurier, Winks (+several other academy products) have all been available
Now you can make the argument that
- The quality has not been the right level (always subjective)
- You can argue that the manager has sucked at getting any of these players to consistently own a spot in starting 11 (subjective as well)
To your point, we are not talking anymore about our results against City or Pool
- We are talking about our results compared to Crystal Palace, Bournemouth, Sheffield who are above us on table. I'm too lazy to do the full 13 sides who have outscored us over the last 44 games (more than a full season)
- Do we really want to do squad comparisons against those, especially since the general opinion here seems to be Poch does better than anyone else with less resources
My arguments/comments about Poch come down to this
- He cannot be blameless in the performance of the squad, the lack of change in the squad or lack of development in very talented players
- The spend/wages/overachievement whataboutism is a red herring because we are not in the top 10 performers.
If we were 6th and being outperformed by the traditional big spenders, maybe even 7th, I'd say a lot of these points have merit
- But we are fudging 11th, and our form for over more than a full season has been around 14th
Do people really want to try to justify being outperformed by 13 other teams in this league?
- Does anyone really believe this squad, flaws or not, refresh or not, shouldn't sleepwalk at least 6th/7th?
- Pick a side outside the top 6, add Kane, Son, Jan and Gazza to it, what happens?
There is simply no narrative that truly supports anything other than the manager is failing, badly.
- If you believe he deserves some backing and help to turn it around, that's ok, admirable even
- But he has to own a lot of the blame, he has to bring performance up to at least par for the squad
Honestly it's a dead argument, either you accept Poch is part of the problem (justify the bold bit in your head) and therefore needs to be part of the solution, or you take the really lazy answer (squad fatigue) that has no sound basis other than grasping at straws.
Bedfordspurs
Arthur Rowe
TBF though we and the youngest team around for a LONG time and still only have a few players over 30
Robspur12
John Lacy
With respect mate, I think Poch's detractors are just looking at things in 2d.
It is impossible to compare where we are to other teams in the PL because we are unique! We are trying to compete with the top 5 teams because supporters expect trophies and top 4 but as @Finney Is Back explains very well in his post, we are so far behind those teams financially. We cannot be compared to teams outside of the top 6 because although our resources are closer to them we are competing on a completely different playing field. While our League form has been poor, how many of Palace, Bournemouth, Everton et al have had to contend with playing European games as well as League? Last season not only did we get to the League Cup semis, Champions League Final but also finished 4th. I just don't understand how anyone cannot see how amazing that achievement was. And with all the injuries we had. Yet a narrative is developing that Poch mismanaged his squad? That he doesn't get the best out of players? It's baffling.
What we achieved was down to the management of Poch and his team. Levy has been brilliant off the field while Poch has been brilliant on it. It is not a partnership that I think we should take for granted.
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- Does anyone really believe this squad, flaws or not, refresh or not, shouldn't sleepwalk at least 6th/7th?
- Pick a side outside the top 6, add Kane, Son, Jan and Gazza to it, what happens?
I think the top 6 is as competitive as it has ever been and no team really sleepwalks in to it, though if you removed all the context we have been discussing and just went with on paper then id certainly think we would do so and more than likely finish top 4 reasonably comfortably.
With the context added? An entirely different story, which is the whole bloody point.
- Pick a side outside the top 6, add Kane, Son, Jan and Gazza to it, what happens?
I think the top 6 is as competitive as it has ever been and no team really sleepwalks in to it, though if you removed all the context we have been discussing and just went with on paper then id certainly think we would do so and more than likely finish top 4 reasonably comfortably.
With the context added? An entirely different story, which is the whole bloody point.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
And with respect, I think Pochs fan club are looking at things with far too many dimensions, to the degree they cannot see the woods for the trees.
So far its
- We didnt buy players over last year, and we need to completely over haul the squad, poor Poch doesnt stand a chance
- We dont have the finances of other clubs, so we shouldnt expect more than we are getting
- We have players that want to leave which is obviously (for some reason) a massive problem for Poch, of which he is a victim and theres nothing he can do
- Poch did good work over the last 5 years so its automatic he will do well going forward, at some unspecified point, when the stars align
- Injuries/fitness (lack of)/need to acclimate (away from the team) etc are why Pochs hands are tied and its not his fault
- If we can just get to January and buy players things will miraculously improve
- It is more important to show we are great, with integrity, love, emotion, loyalty and good vibes than it is to change a manager. Because he DESERVES whatever lee way he wants. Results/performance is secondary to this
It goes on. I see a new angle every day.
And yet, none of them really seem prepared to admit - Poch is not doing as well with the team as he should be. Regardless of the above, he is under performing.
So far its
- We didnt buy players over last year, and we need to completely over haul the squad, poor Poch doesnt stand a chance
- We dont have the finances of other clubs, so we shouldnt expect more than we are getting
- We have players that want to leave which is obviously (for some reason) a massive problem for Poch, of which he is a victim and theres nothing he can do
- Poch did good work over the last 5 years so its automatic he will do well going forward, at some unspecified point, when the stars align
- Injuries/fitness (lack of)/need to acclimate (away from the team) etc are why Pochs hands are tied and its not his fault
- If we can just get to January and buy players things will miraculously improve
- It is more important to show we are great, with integrity, love, emotion, loyalty and good vibes than it is to change a manager. Because he DESERVES whatever lee way he wants. Results/performance is secondary to this
It goes on. I see a new angle every day.
And yet, none of them really seem prepared to admit - Poch is not doing as well with the team as he should be. Regardless of the above, he is under performing.
This .. nothing more to say
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Perhaps its the curse of the internet, it happens, but Ive seen very few explicitly say he is under performing, or not doing his job well enough.
I have seen plenty making every excuse/mitigation/reasoning as to why things arent going well for Poch and why he deserves all the time in the world, or why things arent his fault etc.
It happens. The intent of written word can be lost in the medium.
But from what I see, there is a definite wave of "Its anything but Pochs fault".
Also, I dont really have "a side" in this. I just have what I see as the truth. Which isnt to say that will be agreeable to everyone.
I would very much like to see Poch doing much, much better than he is. Desperately so. I just dont see it. And I cant convince myself otherwise at this point. Of course, if at Everton there are signs of things turning for the better, I will be absolutely delighted.