Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Shifting the narrative slightly, I wonder whether Poch is considering playing Kane in the hole behind, say, a Moura or Son? It would allow Harry to continue creating and playing the superb passes he has been both for us and England.

Imagine...

Moura
Son Kane Alli

as a front four. The options to switch and move would be great. Asking Harry to sacrifice a bit BUT he’d get space to shoot for sure.

Thoughts?

fudge no.

Imagine instead, actually setting up to get the best out of Kane?

No more silly front two with Son that does neither favours, but instead something that works for everyone (especially Kane).

I dont know, maybe something proven already, something the players all know and are comfortable with, and suits the squad.

If only there were something like that we could do instead of completely compromising our best player just to try and get a functional team out of the current mess....

 

[thfcsteff]

fudge no.

Imagine instead, actually setting up to get the best out of Kane?

No more silly front two with Son that does neither favours, but instead something that works for everyone (especially Kane).

I dont know, maybe something proven already, something the players all know and are comfortable with, and suits the squad.

If only there were something like that we could do instead of completely compromising our best player just to try and get a functional team out of the current mess....

I certainly see the benefits of returning to 4-2-3-1 but that almost certainly necessitates playing Eriksen. Which I would not want to do right now.

I suppose the general point is that Kane will go where he needs to go in order to create/conjure when he is not getting the service.

It would be tremendous if Dele can rediscover form, as he and Kane switch off effortlessly and allow Kane those pockets.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Right, I get that (indeed, he ran the Soton game) but it often leaves us with a hole up top as the movement is not quite as fluid when confidence is low as it is right now. Truthfully, solid shape that the players trust is
probably the best way forward...

We need good right backs for that, though. At its core, the players trust the wonky 4-2-3-1 - they've played it for ages, they probably know the roles by heart.

The formula is simple. Two ball playing centre-backs. Two aggressive wing-backs with stamina to get up and down the wing all day. One destroyer, to sit just ahead of the centre-backs and destroy. One ball carrier/distributor, to alternately shield the defense and break the opposition press by carrying the ball past them/passing it. One left-side attacking midfielder, to cut in and create from the middle. One right-side forward, to cut diagonally into the box. One shadow striker, to move into the box, to full the role left by the powerful centre-forward, who drops deep and takes defenders with him.

This is the tactic Poch has used for the majority of the decade - at Soton, and at Spurs. At Soton, he had Lovren and Fonte (ball-playing defenders), Clyne and Shaw (marauding full-backs), Cork/Wanyama (destroyers), Schneiderlin (ball creator), Lallana (left-sided creative midfielder), Steven Davis (shadow striker), Jay Rodriguez (inside forward), Rickie Lambert (centre-forward).

At Spurs in our pomp, he had Toby and Jan as CBs, Walker and Rose as FBs, Wanyama and Dembele as DMs, Eriksen, Alli and Son as attackers, and Kane as forward. Exact same system, better players.

The problem now is that key components are just missing. The destroyer is gone, the press-resistsnt carrier/passer has yet to get up to speed, the full backs are crap, the attackers are all suffering confidence crises. Part of it is down to business not done in the summer - a huge part of it. But part of it is also Poch's loyalty to players, and his over-reliance on confidence as a key driver of the team.

We can't play a simple system everyone knows because the players aren't there for it. And the confidence isn't there, meaning unfamiliar systems (like this goddamn diamond) are exposing their weaknesses.

I see little option but to grit our teeth and wait it out until major business hopefully rectified the problem in January - wouldn't you say that's the case?

 

[parklane1]

Personally, I view this as a marriage which has been outrageously successful and has hit the first wobbly spell, with signs from previous months having come to a head.

This is the time where you either cut, run and make the same mistakes with another partner in a few seasons, or you knuckle down and give your first genuinely great relationship in 15 years+ a chance to find itself again. How much work is everyone prepared to put in? How much effort to push through the tough times and get back to the good.

Call me naive if you wish, but that it my view. I think Poch needs to learn a few things (experienced head in the dressing room, mew coach in the core, drop those fudging up and be more ruthless) but I think he is worth the work.

That Sean Dyche’s name has been mentioned here tells me a lot. Dyche is a great guy, I have spent time with him. But he should never manage this club.

I can't dance with any of that, i think he has done enough during his time here to deserve backing until the end of the season ( at least) and as for Dyche well he has done a very good job at Burnley but i would be gutted if we went back to a manager like he is.

 

[Raziel]

I apologize for any “patronisation” inferred.

It was not my intention. My question re:having the balls to back someone who has had a major role in building this club to where it is right now in terms of a re-awakened giant, remains. Again, I ask it without any hint of prejudice or patronisation. It is a simple question. Perhaps a rephrase will help me get me POV across.

Do people believe that in context of what he has achieved, that Pochettino deserves an extra layer of trust and support right now?

If you don’t, then surely it is clear you don’t trust him and don’t wish to give him the benefit of doubt based on recent history. And if that is what you believe, then so be it, right?

The last month or so of discussions have saddened me somewhat (in context of course!)...FWIW I did not take your response as “patronising” at all.

I didn't take offense .. and glad you didn't either

- Poch deserves all the credit for what he has achieved, bit of the right man at the right time for the club.

To honestly answer your question I would need insight into two things I don't have

- Is he committed? and if he is, he needs to publicly show it
- Are the players still with him? unfortunately the option of him or them ends with him (we can't afford to replace half the squad)

So until then it's speculation ..

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I didn't take offense .. and glad you didn't either

- Poch deserves all the credit for what he has achieved, bit of the right man at the right time for the club.

To honestly answer your question I would need insight into two things I don't have

- Is he committed? and if he is, he needs to publicly show it
- Are the players still with him? unfortunately the option of him or them ends with him (we can't afford to replace half the squad)

So until then it's speculation ..

With the pragmatic hat on...they are the two questions that need answering, and in that order.

 

[Bullet]

At Soton, he had Lovren and Fonte (ball-playing defenders), Clyne and Shaw (marauding full-backs), Cork/Wanyama (destroyers), Schneiderlin (ball creator), Lallana (left-sided creative midfielder), Steven Davis (shadow striker), Jay Rodriguez (inside forward), Rickie Lambert (centre-forward).

Lovren, Schneiderlin and Davis were not what you just described

 

[DubaiSpur]

Lovren, Schneiderlin and Davis were not what you just described

There's a statistical analysis on this from way back on (I think) Saintsweb. I'll try and find it, but yes, they were.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Lovren, Schneiderlin and Davis were not what you just described

While I search, here's the stats for Lovren and Schneiderlin...



Note the long balls played by Lovren and Toby compared to Otamendi and Laporte, as well as the average passes per game. Note the overall similarity across stats in terms of being ball-playing defenders. Their roles are identical.



Here's the stats for Schneiderlin, compared to two of the finest deep-lying distributors of the last few years. @Bedfordspurs , this is also something I was looking for with our own discussion re: Schneiderlin.

He was the *quintessential* deep-lying creator. The best in the league in 2013/2014 - I stand by it.

 

[thfcsteff]

We need good right backs for that, though. At its core, the players trust the wonky 4-2-3-1 - they've played it for ages, they probably know the roles by heart.

The formula is simple. Two ball playing centre-backs. Two aggressive wing-backs with stamina to get up and down the wing all day. One destroyer, to sit just ahead of the centre-backs and destroy. One ball carrier/distributor, to alternately shield the defense and break the opposition press by carrying the ball past them/passing it. One left-side attacking midfielder, to cut in and create from the middle. One right-side forward, to cut diagonally into the box. One shadow striker, to move into the box, to full the role left by the powerful centre-forward, who drops deep and takes defenders with him.

This is the tactic Poch has used for the majority of the decade - at Soton, and at Spurs. At Soton, he had Lovren and Fonte (ball-playing defenders), Clyne and Shaw (marauding full-backs), Cork/Wanyama (destroyers), Schneiderlin (ball creator), Lallana (left-sided creative midfielder), Steven Davis (shadow striker), Jay Rodriguez (inside forward), Rickie Lambert (centre-forward).

At Spurs in our pomp, he had Toby and Jan as CBs, Walker and Rose as FBs, Wanyama and Dembele as DMs, Eriksen, Alli and Son as attackers, and Kane as forward. Exact same system, better players.

The problem now is that key components are just missing. The destroyer is gone, the press-resistsnt carrier/passer has yet to get up to speed, the full backs are crap, the attackers are all suffering confidence crises. Part of it is down to business not done in the summer - a huge part of it. But part of it is also Poch's loyalty to players, and his over-reliance on confidence as a key driver of the team.

We can't play a simple system everyone knows because the players aren't there for it. And the confidence isn't there, meaning unfamiliar systems (like this goddamn diamond) are exposing their weaknesses.

I see little option but to grit our teeth and wait it out until major business hopefully rectified the problem in January - wouldn't you say that's the case?

Another fine post. Agree with pretty much everything you’ve said. I think the diamond can work with FBs of quality, which I agree we simply lack right now.

 

[thfcsteff]

We need good right backs for that, though. At its core, the players trust the wonky 4-2-3-1 - they've played it for ages, they probably know the roles by heart.

The formula is simple. Two ball playing centre-backs. Two aggressive wing-backs with stamina to get up and down the wing all day. One destroyer, to sit just ahead of the centre-backs and destroy. One ball carrier/distributor, to alternately shield the defense and break the opposition press by carrying the ball past them/passing it. One left-side attacking midfielder, to cut in and create from the middle. One right-side forward, to cut diagonally into the box. One shadow striker, to move into the box, to full the role left by the powerful centre-forward, who drops deep and takes defenders with him.

This is the tactic Poch has used for the majority of the decade - at Soton, and at Spurs. At Soton, he had Lovren and Fonte (ball-playing defenders), Clyne and Shaw (marauding full-backs), Cork/Wanyama (destroyers), Schneiderlin (ball creator), Lallana (left-sided creative midfielder), Steven Davis (shadow striker), Jay Rodriguez (inside forward), Rickie Lambert (centre-forward).

At Spurs in our pomp, he had Toby and Jan as CBs, Walker and Rose as FBs, Wanyama and Dembele as DMs, Eriksen, Alli and Son as attackers, and Kane as forward. Exact same system, better players.

The problem now is that key components are just missing. The destroyer is gone, the press-resistsnt carrier/passer has yet to get up to speed, the full backs are crap, the attackers are all suffering confidence crises. Part of it is down to business not done in the summer - a huge part of it. But part of it is also Poch's loyalty to players, and his over-reliance on confidence as a key driver of the team.

We can't play a simple system everyone knows because the players aren't there for it. And the confidence isn't there, meaning unfamiliar systems (like this goddamn diamond) are exposing their weaknesses.

I see little option but to grit our teeth and wait it out until major business hopefully rectified the problem in January - wouldn't you say that's the case?

Another fine post. Agree with pretty much everything you’ve said. I think the diamond can work with FBs of quality, which I agree we simply lack right now.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

While I search, here's the stats for Lovren and Schneiderlin...

View attachment 7408

Note the long balls played by Lovren and Toby compared to Otamendi and Laporte, as well as the average passes per game. Note the overall similarity across stats in terms of being ball-playing defenders. Their roles are identical.

View attachment 7409

Here's the stats for Schneiderlin, compared to two of the finest deep-lying distributors of the last few years. @Bedfordspurs , this is also something I was looking for with our own discussion re: Schneiderlin.

He was the *quintessential* deep-lying creator. The best in the league in 2013/2014 - I stand by it.

Sorry that just shows he plays long balls
Doesn’t show he creates anything of note apart from 1 assist
He averages just under 1 key pass a game so if those long balls were any good that number would be higher surely

 

[scaramanga]

We finished 4th and reached the CL final. Only two managers have taken us to league finishes that high or higher since the PL began. Harry Redknapp (twice) and Pochettino (4 times). It was poor compared to Pochettino's previous three seasons but incredible compared to every other manager we've had since the PL was formed and football changed.

If we're poor this season and then start the season poorly after Pochettino has been properly backed by the chairman then I think it is fair to say thanks but your time is done here Mauricio, until then I think we should stay loyal.

I'm not sure what relevance previous managers have here.

If our target is to continually improve (and I believe it should be) and Poch has at best stalled (I'd say stepped backwards) in doing so, then we have to consider other options.

 

[glasgowspur]

I'm not sure what relevance previous managers have here.

If our target is to continually improve (and I believe it should be) and Poch has at best stalled (I'd say stepped backwards) in doing so, then we have to consider other options.

Of all the posters on here you are the one that I would have thought wouldn't be surprised at the team stalling.
All the signs that it was probably going to happen were there, limited fresh players, current players aging, losing commitment, injuries catching up.
Poch, and the players, deserve credit for so far getting us through it.

Is poch and the brick football of the last season any worse than the brick football that Jose would have served up?

 

[Raziel]

Of all the posters on here you are the one that I would have thought wouldn't be surprised at the team stalling.
All the signs that it was probably going to happen were there, limited fresh players, current players aging, losing commitment, injuries catching up.
Poch, and the players, deserve credit for so far getting us through it.

Is poch and the brick football of the last season any worse than the brick football that Jose would have served up?

Yes .. again Jose's pragmatic approach to difficult/high profile games have created a complete myth that his teams don't attack or score.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I certainly see the benefits of returning to 4-2-3-1 but that almost certainly necessitates playing Eriksen. Which I would not want to do right now.

It doesnt. We have three players in the squad right now I would happily play there instead. The idea we have to play Eriksen is an utter fallacy, one that seemingly many have been sucked into.

Beginning of the season I was criticising Lamela for holding the ball too long. Against Leicester he played in Eriksens spot and did a fine job. I would be very happy to give him the chance over a few games to see if he can find and maintain that Leicester type performance level.

Alli could do the job behind Kane. In fact I think it might actually be his best position. Not an Eriksen-like operator in that position. More a Lampard, IMO, which is no bad thing. I would happily see Poch play him there.

Not a permanent solution, but as a means to helping him settle - while getting what we can out of him - I would also be happy to see Poch play NDombele there as well. He clearly has a hell of an eye for a pass, and his dribbling ability that high up the pitch could be a game changer. Put Winks/Dier behind him and things get interesting.

Eriksen need not even be on the bench.

I suppose the general point is that Kane will go where he needs to go in order to create/conjure when he is not getting the service.

Kane will. But the general point really is - Kane SHOULD be getting service. Im all for him roaming at times to make things happen, its a wonderful alternative to be able to break out in game, and asks very different questions of the opposition.

But to just play him there is an awful thing to do. He is at his best as a proper striker, and I hate seeing him compromised to suit everyone else around him.

It was exactly the same story last night for England.

If we want him to be with us for the long term, we need to make the team work for him - not him work for the team. Otherwise someone else will come along and promise him a creative midfield and all the service he can desire. And I wouldnt blame him for taking it.

The other thing is, set the team up properly (and it is possible) and he doesnt even need to be the creative player. Thats the frustration.

It would be tremendous if Dele can rediscover form, as he and Kane switch off effortlessly and allow Kane those pockets.

It really would. And they do. How is Alli to find form if he cant get games? And even more - cant get games in a position to get the most out of him?

I do understand the argument for people wanting to use the old guard as a "tried and tested" approach, especially as the young guns arent really firing on all cylinders. But I think its wrong. We seem to be compromising our season anyway by playing the silly diamond with players it doesnt suit, IMHO we might as well be bedding these young players in and taking the bumpy ride for that instead.

Sanchez not in great form, Alli not in great form - how is that going to change when they dont get games, and when they sit on the bench watching want-away players put in bricky performances in their positions?

 

[fernadez]

It doesnt. We have three players in the squad right now I would happily play there instead. The idea we have to play Eriksen is an utter fallacy, one that seemingly many have been sucked into.

Beginning of the season I was criticising Lamela for holding the ball too long. Against Leicester he played in Eriksens spot and did a fine job. I would be very happy to give him the chance over a few games to see if he can find and maintain that Leicester type performance level.

Alli could do the job behind Kane. In fact I think it might actually be his best position. Not an Eriksen-like operator in that position. More a Lampard, IMO, which is no bad thing. I would happily see Poch play him there.

Not a permanent solution, but as a means to helping him settle - while getting what we can out of him - I would also be happy to see Poch play NDombele there as well. He clearly has a hell of an eye for a pass, and his dribbling ability that high up the pitch could be a game changer. Put Winks/Dier behind him and things get interesting.

Eriksen need not even be on the bench.




Kane will. But the general point really is - Kane SHOULD be getting service. Im all for him roaming at times to make things happen, its a wonderful alternative to be able to break out in game, and asks very different questions of the opposition.

But to just play him there is an awful thing to do. He is at his best as a proper striker, and I hate seeing him compromised to suit everyone else around him.

It was exactly the same story last night for England.

If we want him to be with us for the long term, we need to make the team work for him - not him work for the team. Otherwise someone else will come along and promise him a creative midfield and all the service he can desire. And I wouldnt blame him for taking it.

The other thing is, set the team up properly (and it is possible) and he doesnt even need to be the creative player. Thats the frustration.




It really would. And they do. How is Alli to find form if he cant get games? And even more - cant get games in a position to get the most out of him?

I do understand the argument for people wanting to use the old guard as a "tried and tested" approach, especially as the young guns arent really firing on all cylinders. But I think its wrong. We seem to be compromising our season anyway by playing the silly diamond with players it doesnt suit, IMHO we might as well be bedding these young players in and taking the bumpy ride for that instead.

Sanchez not in great form, Alli not in great form - how is that going to change when they dont get games, and when they sit on the bench watching want-away players put in bricky performances in their positions?

Another issue with Kane is that he has expressed that he wants to play that Sheringham role and be seen as more than a goal scorer.

That's great for him personally, but for us as his employers makes no sense. We need him to play as a #9 and score goals. If it's a case of he physically can't play up there alone anymore we need to find a way of getting him support but still have him taking the most shots and being in the box. Not flicking on long balls to someone else. Playing attackers with width would create more space and allow him to operate, the best performance I've seen from him recently was when Son stayed wider. The way City set up would be perfect for him, men high and wide keeping the back four engaged.

 

[glasgowspur]

Yes .. again Jose's pragmatic approach to difficult/high profile games have created a complete myth that his teams don't attack or score.

In the recent past? The brick he served up at utd or Chelsea the second time?
Two clubs that have way out spent us and have come from a more solid base.

 

[StephenH]

I doubt Mourinho will be the only candidate to take over if Pochettino goes.

 

[monkeybarry]

There's a statistical analysis on this from way back on (I think) Saintsweb. I'll try and find it, but yes, they were.

I think the point is, in the system he had that is how those players operated.
I agree with your analysis of how he got them working, and he has done similar since being with us. Maybe he is just really just at getting the best out of triangle pegs in round holes?