Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[harr1984]

I still fail to understand how finishes of 5th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th are considered to be failure when operating the sixth biggest wage bill and probably not even top 10 net spend?

People are advocating Mourinho, after 6th, 2nd, 6th (and sacked) with the second highest transfer spend and biggest wage budget in the league?

Because (and I say this as someone still very much pro Poch) we have moved on from being the overachievers - that tag was never going to last forever.

There was only going to be so long you can go on about 'We made top 4 on 6th highest budget' and 'We won the league in the calendar year'. You need to show continuous improvement, especially if you are a manager who hasnt currently won anything. Over achieving is great, but to actually get over the line and win things takes something more as Poch has found out and he's had ample opportunities to do so in various competitions without getting over the line. Thats not to say he wont, but its a question mark nonetheless. Its convenient in mentioning Mourinho you fail to mention the trophies he's won, as that is what we need now in order to elevate us - even Poch says so, and like it or not it is practically a guarantee with Jose....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Because (and I say this as someone still very much pro Poch) we have moved on from being the overachievers - that tag was never going to last forever.

There was only going to be so long you can go on about 'We made top 4 on 6th highest budget' and 'We won the league in the calendar year'. You need to show continuous improvement, especially if you are a manager who hasnt currently won anything. Over achieving is great, but to actually get over the line and win things takes something more as Poch has found out and he's had ample opportunities to do so in various competitions without getting over the line. Thats not to say he wont, but its a question mark nonetheless. Its convenient in mentioning Mourinho you fail to mention the trophies he's won, as that is what we need now in order to elevate us - even Poch says so, and like it or not it is practically a guarantee with Jose....

Good luck in us finding a manager who can get us punching above our weight every single year and not only that but get us punching even more above our weight with every year that passes.

Re: Mourinho. If you look at his time at Man Utd he did indeed win the League Cup and Europa League (both in his first season before going downhill from there). Does anybody really give a damn about the League Cup? We play our reserves and a fair few on here who are advocating Mourinho seem to also always be happy when we exit this competition?

As I said before Man Utd winning the Europa League consisted of finishing second in a group containing Fenerbahce, Feyenoord and Zorya Luhansk (no I haven't ever heard of Zorya either) and then overcoming the European giants of St Ettiene, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo and then finally a very young Ajax in the final.

If you compare Jose's 3 seasons at Man Utd (2nd, 6th, 2nd) with Pochettino's last 4 at Spurs (3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) Pochettino's are far more impressive than Jose's. The only difference is therefore a trophy that we have shown we have little interest in winning and a second tier European competition that we've not been competing in due to competing in the top tier one instead).

If we are really going to cut short Pochettino's time at Spurs in his first real blip since taking over the club then let's at least appoint a manager who has a better record record of over achieving than Mourinho because, let's face it, we are asking our manager to over achieve massively, outperforming clubs who are spending twice the amount that we are on both transfer fees and wages.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm not sure what relevance previous managers have here.

If our target is to continually improve (and I believe it should be) and Poch has at best stalled (I'd say stepped backwards) in doing so, then we have to consider other options.

Or perhaps we should consider that having a success criteria of continual year on year improvement, doing better than 5 other clubs who all spend twice as much on transfer fees and wages is probably not a sustainable success criteria? There is a reason why the club who spend the most on wages and transfer fees tend to take the spots at the top of the table.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

He's been trying to make the problem go away, unfortunately nobody wants them and we can't get replacements.

He could literally make the problems go away, but inexplicably he keeps putting them in the team while their replacements sit and watch!

Duncan Castles is a fudging dire spew merchant. Don't believe a word of it.

Its a pretty bold statement to make for him, not the usual inane and meaningless BS.

Not sure I believe it, but I think its significant that a journalist of a reasonable profile has stuck their neck out to such a degree.

 

[scaramanga]

He's been trying to make the problem go away, unfortunately nobody wants them and we can't get replacements.

That's a long-winded way of saying he's failed.

 

[Raziel]

Good luck in us finding a manager who can get us punching above our weight every single year and not only that but get us punching even more above our weight with every year that passes.

Re: Mourinho. If you look at his time at Man Utd he did indeed win the League Cup and Europa League (both in his first season before going downhill from there). Does anybody really give a damn about the League Cup? We play our reserves and a fair few on here who are advocating Mourinho seem to also always be happy when we exit this competition?

As I said before Man Utd winning the Europa League consisted of finishing second in a group containing Fenerbahce, Feyenoord and Zorya Luhansk (no I haven't ever heard of Zorya either) and then overcoming the European giants of St Ettiene, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo and then finally a very young Ajax in the final.

If you compare Jose's 3 seasons at Man Utd (2nd, 6th, 2nd) with Pochettino's last 4 at Spurs (3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) Pochettino's are far more impressive than Jose's. The only difference is therefore a trophy that we have shown we have little interest in winning and a second tier European competition that we've not been competing in due to competing in the top tier one instead).

If we are really going to cut short Pochettino's time at Spurs in his first real blip since taking over the club then let's at least appoint a manager who has a better record record of over achieving than Mourinho because, let's face it, we are asking our manager to over achieve massively, outperforming clubs who are spending twice the amount that we are on both transfer fees and wages.

Mate, BMJ, Harry all did the same, overachieving at the point in time for what we had, the club has been on an upward trajectory for the best part of Levy's tenure, it nothing more than sensationalism to suggest Poch is the only manager who can save us.

What Jose did was prioritize winning trophies because that was more important from a prestige perspective that the money gained from PL place was to United (a club struggling to is continued relevance), nobody in history is going to give a fudge who you beat to get a trophy (Chelsea has the most jammy CL win of all time, but they have it). Question could be why has Poch not looked at the 3rd, 2nd seasons and put a little more into winning a trophy? (probably would have a lot less pressure on him now if he had won one of those "trophies no one gives a fudge about"

And I really don't believe we are arguing that Poch is a better manager than Jose? in any circumstance? I get people who don't like his personality, style, concern around the end of his time at clubs, but lets not pretend there is even a debate about who the better manager is.

 

[glasgowspur]

He could literally make the problems go away, but inexplicably he keeps putting them in the team while their replacements sit and watch!





Its a pretty bold statement to make for him, not the usual inane and meaningless BS.

Not sure I believe it, but I think its significant that a journalist of a reasonable profile has stuck their neck out to such a degree.

Agreed with your first point.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Good luck in us finding a manager who can get us punching above our weight every single year and not only that but get us punching even more above our weight with every year that passes.

Re: Mourinho. If you look at his time at Man Utd he did indeed win the League Cup and Europa League (both in his first season before going downhill from there). Does anybody really give a damn about the League Cup? We play our reserves and a fair few on here who are advocating Mourinho seem to also always be happy when we exit this competition?

As I said before Man Utd winning the Europa League consisted of finishing second in a group containing Fenerbahce, Feyenoord and Zorya Luhansk (no I haven't ever heard of Zorya either) and then overcoming the European giants of St Ettiene, Rostov, Anderlecht, Celta Vigo and then finally a very young Ajax in the final.

If you compare Jose's 3 seasons at Man Utd (2nd, 6th, 2nd) with Pochettino's last 4 at Spurs (3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th) Pochettino's are far more impressive than Jose's. The only difference is therefore a trophy that we have shown we have little interest in winning and a second tier European competition that we've not been competing in due to competing in the top tier one instead).

If we are really going to cut short Pochettino's time at Spurs in his first real blip since taking over the club then let's at least appoint a manager who has a better record record of over achieving than Mourinho because, let's face it, we are asking our manager to over achieve massively, outperforming clubs who are spending twice the amount that we are on both transfer fees and wages.

You make some very valid points and I am still hopeful Poch can pull us through this sticky patch. The problem is you could argue that our regression has been ongoing for over 2 seasons:

2017/18 - 77 points and +36 GD
2018/19 - 71 points and +28 GD

of course that’s not all on Poch and there are perfectly valid reasons for this but ultimately he’s the manager and the team has regressed year on year since the end of 2016/17.

i think pretty much everybody would prefer that Poch sticks around, the team start playing better again and we kick on, finish top 4 again, get closer to the top two and win a trophy. But tbh, I’d be lying if I expect him to actually achieve that. I’m all for giving him more time but personally the signs don’t look good to me. I think it would help him massively if we sign Dybala in January and get shot of Eriksen, whilst also re-signing Jan.

 

[glasgowspur]

That's a long-winded way of saying he's failed.

You're a manufacturer aren't you?
Your production manager comes and says to that "that machine, its not up to the job, we are getting by but if you want increase capacity over the next year it needs replaced"
One year later and your factory starts to work flow issues because you haven't replaced the machine, who's failed?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You're a manufacturer aren't you?
Your production manager comes and says to that "that machine, its not up to the job, we are getting by but if you want increase capacity over the next year it needs replaced"
One year later and your factory starts to work flow issues because you haven't replaced the machine, who's failed?

Problem is, the machine is perfectly serviceable. Even if it isnt the brand new all singing all dancing model.

 

[Raziel]

You're a manufacturer aren't you?
Your production manager comes and says to that "that machine, its not up to the job, we are getting by but if you want increase capacity over the next year it needs replaced"
One year later and your factory starts to work flow issues because you haven't replaced the machine, who's failed?

Except no data backs up your production manager's statement? and the machinery is not even producing what it used to.

Does anyone really believe the results over the last 10 months are even par for this squad? that it is really the best any manager could get out of this team? that conceding 7 goals at home for the first time in our history is because of squad quality issues? losing 3-0 to relegation scrappers is because we were missing Lo Celso or Dybala?

fudge me … this has got to the point where we are actually advocating massive squad re-jig because Poch can't even get expected (not overachieve) results out of the best Tottenham side I have seen in decades ...

 

[scaramanga]

Or perhaps we should consider that having a success criteria of continual year on year improvement, doing better than 5 other clubs who all spend twice as much on transfer fees and wages is probably not a sustainable success criteria? There is a reason why the club who spend the most on wages and transfer fees tend to take the spots at the top of the table.

We can use your measure of league finishing positions as our only criteria if we're agreed that we can afford to finish mid-table one season and only make decisions regarding Poch's future after whole seasons.

On the (fairly sound) assumption that finishing outside the top 4 this season is less than acceptable, then we need to look at recent form. Recent form is that of a team barely staying above the relegation zone.

I'm not saying Poch needs to go now, but he needs to show that he has some kind of idea as to how he will dig himself out of this hole and he needs to do it sharply.

 

[glasgowspur]

OK, I've got it now, so all the posts about Toby being done, aurier reckless, Rose switching off, Sissoko is a turd, winks and Sanchez not good enough, son streaky, Eriksen not committed, Moura only good in bursts and through the middle and Hugo a clanger waiting to happen are just what, figment of imagination, bantz, trolls?

 

[scaramanga]

You're a manufacturer aren't you?
Your production manager comes and says to that "that machine, its not up to the job, we are getting by but if you want increase capacity over the next year it needs replaced"
One year later and your factory starts to work flow issues because you haven't replaced the machine, who's failed?

Machines can't learn and improve - neither are younger ones cheaper than those in their prime.

That analogy doesn't really work here. If Poch insists on a style that requires youth and full commitment (I have no issue with that style if he does) then it's on him to ensure he has committed, young players available. The youth to senior team system needs to be a constant churn - that hasn't happened here.

 

[StephenH]

Feck off this is getting embarrassing

 

[scaramanga]

Feck off this is getting embarrassing

Welcome to the right side - you'll enjoy it here. The sense of superiority is contagious.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

OK, I've got it now, so all the posts about Toby being done, aurier reckless, Rose switching off, Sissoko is a turd, winks and Sanchez not good enough, son streaky, Eriksen not committed, Moura only good in bursts and through the middle and Hugo a clanger waiting to happen are just what, figment of imagination, bantz, trolls?

From my point of view, either beside the point, or for Poch to manage.

The crux of matters seems to fall to a couple of view points
- Poch should be doing better with what he has
- There are a million excuses as to why Poch shouldnt be doing better than he is

 

[StephenH]

Welcome to the right side - you'll enjoy it here. The sense of superiority is contagious.

Do I get my fix now?

 

[Raziel]

OK, I've got it now, so all the posts about Toby being done, aurier reckless, Rose switching off, Sissoko is a turd, winks and Sanchez not good enough, son streaky, Eriksen not committed, Moura only good in bursts and through the middle and Hugo a clanger waiting to happen are just what, figment of imagination, bantz, trolls?

Fan reactions, some with merit, some without, again facts

- This side vs. two years ago has a better version of Son, a fit Lamela, Sanchez, Lucas and N'dombele (with 2 others injured to join) minus Dembele & Trippier, so arguably current side is better on paper.
- Saying everyone is brick (seems everyone bar Kane at this point) but the manager is great is very much the "everyone in the world is crazy but me" argument.

Feel like a dog chasing my tail at this point, but for me it's super simple

- Poch is not getting the results that are right or par for this team (again unless you believe we should ship 3 goals against relegation squads)
- If it is really "certain players" then fudging make them play for you or replace them with academy players (Poch did this when he brought in Mason & Bentaleb)
- IF it is a confidence, unsettled thing, then get them back to the basics, keep it fudging simple, no diamonds, no crazy possession out the back, just simple.

If we pick the same players, play the same style and expect a different result magically … wtf?

 

[glasgowspur]

Machines can't learn and improve - neither are younger ones cheaper than those in their prime.

That analogy doesn't really work here. If Poch insists on a style that requires youth and full commitment (I have no issue with that style if he does) then it's on him to ensure he has committed, young players available. The youth to senior team system needs to be a constant churn - that hasn't happened here.

Machines can't learn and improve - neither are younger ones cheaper than those in their prime.

That analogy doesn't really work here. If Poch insists on a style that requires youth and full commitment (I have no issue with that style if he does) then it's on him to ensure he has committed, young players available. The youth to senior team system needs to be a constant churn - that hasn't happened here.

I don't see what cost has to do with it and I never mentioned it.
If he isn't in charge of buying and selling how can he ensure that churn.