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London Bridge and Borough terrorist incident

markysimmo said:
Looks like the time for action is now and not worrying more about hurting people's feelings than making our country safe, about fudging time
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What does that mean though? This is a complex issue and there are no easy answers. It is hardly as if there has been no action after previous terrorist incidents.
 
milo said:
A shock tactic would just be another recruiting tool.

We need to do more to tackle the causes of radicalisation. Continue to build cohesion between different communities and challenge people who try to divide us.

In terms of media coverage, how these things are covered always brings to my mind this piece from Newswipe

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I think once people are brainwashed little can be done to turn them back in all honesty.

In Syria/Iraq youngsters are taken from a young age and the animals threaten to kill their families if they don't become a believer and serve the cause. What chance do they have if your mother sister are in danger etc. These are the animals we are dealing with.

I dislike the constant news coverage but even more so the speculative news that always gathers pace during the first hour etc of an attack.
Looking on twitter yesterday, some were saying there was a bomb at Vauxhall, although know there was a unconnected stabbing etc as well as other news saying there were attacks in 5 different London locations.

I guess that's the one of drawbacks of social media
 
spitshine said:
I think once people are brainwashed little can be done to turn them back in all honesty.

In Syria/Iraq youngsters are taken from a young age and the animals threaten to kill their families if they don't become a believer and serve the cause. What chance do they have if your mother sister are in danger etc. These are the animals we are dealing with.

I dislike the constant news coverage but even more so the speculative news that always gathers pace during the first hour etc of an attack.
Looking on twitter yesterday, some were saying there was a bomb at Vauxhall, although know there was a unconnected stabbing etc as well as other news saying there were attacks in 5 different London locations.

I guess that's the one of drawbacks of social media
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Which is why we need to do more to stop people becoming radicalised. A contributing factor on this must be a lack of cohesion between communities which is why we must challenge blowhards on all sides who stir up hatred and try to divide us.

The police said that there was an incident in Vauxhall last night, it was about an hour later when they said that it was unconnected.
 
milo said:
What does that mean though? This is a complex issue and there are no easy answers. It is hardly as if there has been no action after previous terrorist incidents.
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Seems that Australia could be the destination of choice for those worried about Islamification...

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milo said:
Accomplices are, of course, just as culpable
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There are shades of grey though. Yes direct accomplices are of course just as culpable, but what of more passive support/tolerance...?

It's totally wrong to apply blanket blame for example to families, as you originally suggest. But I also think that more passive support/tolerance/encouragement of these people (the terrorists), while perhaps not directly to blame, is a very big part of the problem. How it should be addressed, I don't know. As you said yourself in another post, it's a highly complex issue. But addressed, it must be. Not ignored.
 
Parklaner81 said:
There are shades of grey though. Yes direct accomplices are of course just as culpable, but what of more passive support/tolerance...?

It's totally wrong to apply blanket blame for example to families, as you originally suggest. But I also think that more passive support/tolerance/encouragement of these people (the terrorists), while perhaps not directly to blame, is a very big part of the problem. How it should be addressed, I don't know. As you said yourself in another post, it's a highly complex issue. But addressed, it must be. Not ignored.
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I think that each case needs to be looked at on its own merits when the facts are known. We know little about the men who did this at the moment and we are straying into speculating. We know that in Manchester, numerous people had reported him to the police.
 
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Parklaner81 said:
In which case, I agree entirely with the statement.

I originally interpreted it to mean the 3 scumbags alone however, which would be something I would find much harder to support (dependent upon the specific circumstances of course).
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If you have active involvement you should face the law.
If you are merely unfortunate enough to be related to a scumbag, that is no grounds for anything.

The middle ground of course is the passive one - knowledge/heightened suspension but you don't act upon that by reporting it.
I think that needs an open and frank debate.
 
milo said:
Which is why we need to do more to stop people becoming radicalised. A contributing factor on this must be a lack of cohesion between communities which is why we must challenge blowhards on all sides who stir up hatred and try to divide us.

The police said that there was an incident in Vauxhall last night, it was about an hour later when they said that it was unconnected.
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Did you read the front page of the times yesterday, was a story about muslims undermining the official programme about reporting trouble makers. A concern if true.
 
monkeybarry said:
If you have active involvement you should face the law.
If you are merely unfortunate enough to be related to a scumbag, that is no grounds for anything.

The middle ground of course is the passive one - knowledge/heightened suspension but you don't act upon that by reporting it.
I think that needs an open and frank debate.
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I agree, that's kind of my point. It was why I queried the original 'no one is to blame but the perpetrators' statement.
 
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I generally don't comment on domestic attacks in the UK, because I feel like it's somewhat uncalled for to pontificate from out here in Canada to people on the other side of the Atlantic about the geopolitical and strategic causes behind all this when they're at the front end of these events.

But I know from the GG map that a lot of you chaps do live in London. So I instinctively went a bit cold when I heard about this in a way that I might not have in different circumstances. :( I hope everyone injured recovers, and that people get through the pain of this together - relying on each other for strength and courage in these dark times.
 
Mikey10 said:
You'd have thought 6 years as Home Secretary might have helped her to realise 'enough is enough' before last night's awful incident - although I'm not sure I understand what she really means by using the phrase.
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"sound bite"
"Means"? Lost for explanation and reaction
 
All this before an Election too. None of them look like they have the bottle to see things out.

Military Coup anyone?
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Did you read the front page of the times yesterday, was a story about muslims undermining the official programme about reporting trouble makers. A concern if true.
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I didn't but there will always be individuals who try to undermine and frustrated what we need to achieve. What we need to focus on is that the vast majority of Muslims abhor these attacks and want these tossers stopped as much as everyone else. Seeking dividing lines between communities just plays into the hands of extremists.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Did you read the front page of the times yesterday, was a story about muslims undermining the official programme about reporting trouble makers. A concern if true.
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Yes, it was because it doesn't work very well. The case of the Manchester terrorist a clear example, he was reported 5 times by the muslim community and nothing was done, instead the prevent system was sending coppers round 8 year olds houses over some innocuous crap.

Absolutely a system is needed to prevent and report violent extremism be it islamist or far right. But the system they have is not very good.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Yes, it was because it doesn't work very well. The case of the Manchester terrorist a clear example, he was reported 5 times by the muslim community and nothing was done, instead the prevent system was sending coppers round 8 year olds houses over some innocuous crap.

Absolutely a system is needed to prevent and report violent extremism be it islamist or far right. But the system they have is not very good.
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I did not read the article, it was a headline grabber. I just wondered what it was all about. I know a few muslims and they are all sound. You point out that the the nutter in Manchester was reported several times by the local community. But from a quick scan read of the front page it was something to do with a leading self appointed muslim fella try to undermine the prevent thing.

I agree with the earlier point from @milo about the best way to prevent this attacks is to get communities together, I only mention it because the headline of a newspaper which is not know for extreme headlines.

I certainly think the way the country is trying to come together is the best way. I am up a bit of a moany old negative grumpy pr*ck and I hate all the hashtag stuff but if that is how the kids get through it I guess it is ok. The good thing about the being so many muslims in the country is that most people will know some and then they will know they are ok people. I have been friends with a guy called Abraham who runs Kararar security in Brighton for over 20 years. He is a great guy. I think most people in the country will know some Muslims and know they are ok it is just the mental ones.

Think more censorship of certain internet websites and social media things would be a good start. Also a lot might not agree with this and I was raised a Catholic and went to Catholic school but I would ban all religion in all schools before 18 years of age.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Yes, it was because it doesn't work very well. The case of the Manchester terrorist a clear example, he was reported 5 times by the muslim community and nothing was done, instead the prevent system was sending coppers round 8 year olds houses over some innocuous crap.

Absolutely a system is needed to prevent and report violent extremism be it islamist or far right. But the system they have is not very good.
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What could the security forces have done? They must receive dozen such reports every week. They cannot keep track of all of them and we do not live in a police state where we can hold people without clear evidence against them. Easy to criticise "Prevent" but no system will be perfect, so you need to come up with a better one.
 
milo said:
I didn't but there will always be individuals who try to undermine and frustrated what we need to achieve. What we need to focus on is that the vast majority of Muslims abhor these attacks and want these tossers stopped as much as everyone else. Seeking dividing lines between communities just plays into the hands of extremists.
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How do you get someone to intergrate into a society which they wish to destroy? Show them the benefits which are available and help them attain them? It appears they are opposed to many of the things our society enjoy. On a wider scale should we destroy Israel and return it to the Palestinians? Withdraw all western companies from Islamic countries? Remove the despots they don't like? What is their goal?
 
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