London Bridge and Borough terrorist incident

[milo]

How do you get someone to intergrate into a society which they wish to destroy? Show them the benefits which are available and help them attain them? It appears they are opposed to many of the things our society enjoy. On a wider scale should we destroy Israel and return it to the Palestinians? Withdraw all western companies from Islamic countries? Remove the despots they don't like? What is their goal?

You can't and I am not suggesting that. I am saying that we need to be careful not to blame Islam as a whole and drive further divisions between communities. I think that a closer and more tolerant society is a less fertile ground for extremists to flourish.

 

[7percent]

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-...town-helped-young-muslims-turn-away-from-isis

 

[Robspur12]

How do you get someone to intergrate into a society which they wish to destroy? Show them the benefits which are available and help them attain them? It appears they are opposed to many of the things our society enjoy. On a wider scale should we destroy Israel and return it to the Palestinians? Withdraw all western companies from Islamic countries? Remove the despots they don't like? What is their goal?

It is a good question mate. I can partially answer by explaining that I had the privilege of being a guest at a London mosque ironically on the day after the Manchester attacks. They opened every part of the Mosque including the prayer halls and Library. They answered our questions no matter how uncomfortable they may have been. They saw themselves very much part of British Society but living through a religious perspective , no different from adherents to my religion - Roman Catholicism. I didn't get the impression that they wanted to destroy us.

Undoubtedly there are elements in the community who do, We must work harder to root these out and the hate groups and preachers who give them oxygen. Even with these terrible things happening there is a lot being done to combat radicalisation such as banning groups like al mahajiroun and hiz-but-tahrir.

Please do bear in mind that after every attack life becomes doubly hard not just for the Muslim community but all Asians. I am British of Asian origin. I am not Muslim but 2 of my closest friends are. The day after an attack they are wary about even going out. They are just as likely to be victims of these indiscriminate atrocities or to suffer the hatred afterwards.

I remember being on a plane to Germany in 2001 just after September 11th. The plane was shaking so much there were people praying. There was a middle eastern man on the plane a few aisles down and for a second I lost my mind fixating on him wondering whether he was responsible for a malfunction on the plane. A short time later when I snapped out of my stupidity, it dawned on me he might have been thinking the same about me!

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

You can't and I am not suggesting that. I am saying that we need to be careful not to blame Islam as a whole and drive further divisions between communities. I think that a closer and more tolerant society is a less fertile ground for extremists to flourish.

These people are a product of an intolerant society and they see us as evil and weak, they take vulnerable people and manipulate them, they are the very worse type of religious zealots and twist a faith to suit their needs, any attempt to alter their stance is seen as an attack. I know many people of different beliefs and although I don't share in their need for a GHod I accept their right to practice their faith. In a modern world anyone promoting any form of intolerance should be penalised, but we have trapped ourselves with our liberal views (which I agree with) and we will never be able to effectively combat this evil they spread.

 

[milo]

You can't and I am not suggesting that. I am saying that we need to be careful not to blame Islam as a whole and drive further divisions between communities. I think that a closer and more tolerant society is a less fertile ground for extremists to flourish.

And the cuts in police funding need to be reversed

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It is a good question mate. I can partially answer by explaining that I had the privilege of being a guest at a London mosque ironically on the day after the Manchester attacks. They opened every part of the Mosque including the prayer halls and Library. They answered our questions no matter how uncomfortable they may have been. They saw themselves very much part of British Society but living through a religious perspective , no different to adherents to my religion - Roman Catholicism. I didn't get the impression that they wanted to destroy us.

Undoubtedly there are elements in the community who do, We must work harder to root these out and the hate groups and preachers who give them oxygen. Even with these terrible things happening there is a lot being done to combat radicalisation such as banning groups like al mahajiroun and hiz-but-tahrir.

Please do bear in mind that after every attack life becomes doubly hard not just for the Muslim community but all Asians. I am British of Asian origin. I am not Muslim but 2 of my closest friends are. The day after an attack they are wary about even going out. They are just as likely to be victims of these indiscriminate atrocities and then suffer the hatred afterwards.

I remember being on a plane to Germany in 2001 just after September 11th. The plane was shaking so much there were people praying. There was a middle eastern man on the plane a few aisles down and for a second I lost my mind fixating on him wondering whether he was responsible for a malfunction on the plane. A short time later when I snapped out of my stupidity, it dawned on me he might have been thinking the same about me!

I don't believe Muslim want to destroy our society, but there are a significant number who do, as there were in our faith that supported the IRA. I'm talking about the people who have no political goal and can not be negotiated with, they are zealots.

 

[milo]

These people are a product of an intolerant society and they see us as evil and weak, they take vulnerable people and manipulate them, they are the very worse type of religious zealots and twist a faith to suit their needs, any attempt to alter their stance is seen as an attack. I know many people of different beliefs and although I don't share in their need for a GHod I accept their right to practice their faith. In a modern world anyone promoting any form of intolerance should be penalised, but we have trapped ourselves with our liberal views (which I agree with) and we will never be able to effectively combat this evil they spread.

I don't think that you can defeat an intolerant and illiberal ideology by becoming more intolerant and illiberal. They are trying to create division, fear and intolerance in society, we should not let them win.

I do not agree that we are trapped by liberal views. It is great living in a liberal society and that is why they fear it. We should cherish and champion it. Hats off to Manchester, that is what they are doing today and it I think it is the correct response and a lot more effective than blaming the internet.

 

[Robspur12]

And the cuts in police funding need to be reversed

A proper debate is needed. Not all police funding goes into counter terrorism. Other areas of the public sector such as health and education also need to be properly funded with only a limited pot. The easy option is more police but that papers over the cracks. Since 2010, I have seen lots of community groups have their funding cut. Many of those groups were supporting the integration of communities such as the Somalis. They were dismissed as "Pet" projects by short sighted politicians like Boris Johnson.

 

[milo]

A proper debate is needed. Not all police funding goes into counter terrorism. Other areas of the public sector such as health and education also need to be properly funded with only a limited pot. The easy option is more police but that papers over the cracks. Since 2010, I have seen lots of community groups have their funding cut. Many of those groups were supporting the integration of communities such as the Somalis. They were dismissed as "Pet" projects by short sighted politicians like Boris Johnson.

I agree. I think that properly funded community policing is as, if not more, important as counter terrorist. As are other schemes like the ones you mention.

 

[spitshine]

 

[Robspur12]

I will say it again, we will not defeat this scourge by just upping the numbers of Police. It requires a whole community approach including local authorities, charities etc. They are all being cut. The Police can shout and know they will be heard especially after a terrorist attack. It's the lesser groups who have no voice or are not politically astute, but who do an important job nonetheless, that get shut down out of sight.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

This from a Labour activist:: Activist Barbara Ntumy tweeted the astonishing claim that ‘one mans [sic] Jihadist/Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter’, adding ‘#JustSaying.’

Not the sort of time for these sort of remarks.

 

[Rorschach]

Great concert in Manchester tonight. Not a dry eye in the house by the end.

I find the term war on terror laughable. How do you defeat an idea? Certainly not by increasing the budget for the military. This is an ideological war which will only be won by changing the minds of the assailants, if you can call them that. I don't know the answer on how to stop these random attacks and it seems no one else does either, but it seems to me this can only be solved from within the muslim community itself. Their voices are the only ones that really carry any weight.

 

[spitshine]

A big conversation in the pub this afternoon. The general consensus was maybe we should have not got involved in certain wars. Saddam Hussein was the lesser of two evils in the Iran/Iraq war and was supported by the west. If he was never toppled, things would be safer now. Food for thought perhaps but you can't predict things.

 

[Parklaner81]

I don't think that you can defeat an intolerant and illiberal ideology by becoming more intolerant and illiberal. They are trying to create division, fear and intolerance in society, we should not let them win.

I do not agree that we are trapped by liberal views. It is great living in a liberal society and that is why they fear it. We should cherish and champion it. Hats off to Manchester, that is what they are doing today and it I think it is the correct response and a lot more effective than blaming the internet.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I really think 'fear' is the wrong word here. The fanatics who want to destroy us, like those animals last night, aren't acting out of 'fear' as far as I can see.

 

[LutonSpurs]

What could the security forces have done? They must receive dozen such reports every week. They cannot keep track of all of them and we do not live in a police state where we can hold people without clear evidence against them. Easy to criticise "Prevent" but no system will be perfect, so you need to come up with a better one.

Agreed on all points. It's a tough job for the security services. For the supposedly homogenous Muslim communities. For people impacted directly. The whole thing is awful. I have no answers.

 

[thfcsteff]

How do you get someone to intergrate into a society which they wish to destroy? Show them the benefits which are available and help them attain them? It appears they are opposed to many of the things our society enjoy. On a wider scale should we destroy Israel and return it to the Palestinians? Withdraw all western companies from Islamic countries? Remove the despots they don't like? What is their goal?

I think it is very, very important to show home-born kids that this is their country, this is where their roots can grow and that in most cases, their parents would NOT want the disgrace and dishonor of jihadi terrorism (or any terrorism) on their family name. That is the generation. And to do that,it will require genuine infiltration of closed-off communities, not in a sneaky way, in a firm, brave and engaging way. Easier said than done I know, but I do wonder how may communities live in fear of the 'extremist bullies' that might suddenly rise up and adopt a modern, inclusive stance of the encouragement and support was there?

 

[thfcsteff]

How do you get someone to intergrate into a society which they wish to destroy? Show them the benefits which are available and help them attain them? It appears they are opposed to many of the things our society enjoy. On a wider scale should we destroy Israel and return it to the Palestinians? Withdraw all western companies from Islamic countries? Remove the despots they don't like? What is their goal?

I think it is very, very important to show home-born kids that this is their country, this is where their roots can grow and that in most cases, their parents would NOT want the disgrace and dishonor of jihadi terrorism (or any terrorism) on their family name. That is the generation. And to do that,it will require genuine infiltration of closed-off communities, not in a sneaky way, in a firm, brave and engaging way. Easier said than done I know, but I do wonder how may communities live in fear of the 'extremist bullies' that might suddenly rise up and adopt a modern, inclusive stance of the encouragement and support was there?

 

[Libero]

A big conversation in the pub this afternoon. The general consensus was maybe we should have not got involved in certain wars. Saddam Hussein was the lesser of two evils in the Iran/Iraq war and was supported by the west. If he was never toppled, things would be safer now. Food for thought perhaps but you can't predict things.

It is such a complex issue and as with anything like this, it is a multitude of scenarios that could have played out better with hindsight but I would say this, whilst our foreign policy definitely needs to be looked at in terms of how closely we align ourselves with US foreign policy by comparison to the first part of this century, it is a smokescreen to suggest that our foreign policy is to blame for any of this. Whilst I accept it is one strand of the issue, these people would attack if we withdrew from everywhere and kept quiet because they wish to change how we live to what they would like. We are between a rock and a hard place at times but it doesn't help when we are also being hypocritical in selling arms and security training to Saudi Arabia and then enabling them to go into Yemen who we are then having to help via foreign aid.

The lesson to be learned regarding the likes of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Gaddafi in Libya is that if you are going to intervene, which is in itself, with hindsight, maybe something we shouldn't have done, then you have to have a clear and workable plan for immediate governance in that country. The moment you leave a power vacuum then you are doomed to years of internal fighting once you have left and the country then is left in a worse place in many aspects than when you went in.

The problem that we have now with regimes that are killing/oppressing its own people is that we are now holding back much more and it is looked at as politically convenient or hypocritical from us to not get involved and viewed by outsiders as though we aren't getting involved because there is nothing in it for us. The picking and choosing of which countries to get involved in of previous generations and administrations is now coming back to haunt us but like I say, it is very complex because you can't go in and solve every issue, in every country and in some circumstances you can't not go in.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It is such a complex issue and as with anything like this, it is a multitude of scenarios that could have played out better with hindsight but I would say this, whilst our foreign policy definitely needs to be looked at in terms of how closely we align ourselves with US foreign policy by comparison to the first part of this century, it is a smokescreen to suggest that our foreign policy is to blame for any of this. Whilst I accept it is one strand of the issue, these people would attack if we withdrew from everywhere and kept quiet because they wish to change how we live to what they would like. We are between a rock and a hard place at times but it doesn't help when we are also being hypocritical in selling arms and security training to Saudi Arabia and then enabling them to go into Yemen who we are then having to help via foreign aid.

The lesson to be learned regarding the likes of Saddam Hussein in Iraq and Gaddafi in Libya is that if you are going to intervene, which is in itself, with hindsight, maybe something we shouldn't have done, then you have to have a clear and workable plan for immediate governance in that country. The moment you leave a power vacuum then you are doomed to years of internal fighting once you have left and the country then is left in a worse place in many aspects than when you went in.

The problem that we have now with regimes that are killing/oppressing its own people is that we are now holding back much more and it is looked at as politically convenient or hypocritical from us to not get involved and viewed by outsiders as though we aren't getting involved because there is nothing in it for us. The picking and choosing of which countries to get involved in of previous generations and administrations is now coming back to haunt us but like I say, it is very complex because you can't go in and solve every issue, in every country and in some circumstances you can't not go in.

All very well if these decisions were on moral or humanitarian grounds, but they are not they are based on trade and our politicians are prepared to support any despot if there is money to be made.