Be honest....

[ArcspacE]

No.

Neither did I expect a team talking about the title as a possibility and the CL as a certainty to surrender 90% of a 10 point gap in three rounds of football.

The initial post as a premise, that it's ok to lose difficult games. It also has as a premise, that we have been doing fine lately and the negativity being down to the last 3 results. Both premises are wrong.

Firstly - It's not ok to lose 3 on the trot if you lose them your direct competitors and especially not, if those games performance wise are complete collapses - not if you talk of titles and CL football.

Second - the performances have been poor and the defeats have been well deserved. However, the poor performances go beyond these 3 games and we have been stuttering for some time now.

I don't CARE, what people "expected" at the start of the season. I care about us being given a golden opportunity to do something and then the team and the manager perhaps tinkled it all away like right bottlejobs. It's gut-wrenching.

On the money. Cannot understand the notion of adding a postiive spin on what has been a solid decent into the mid 90s (in terms of results in crucial games) ever since Christmas bar 1 or 2 odd games. It is heartbreaking at the very least

 

[Hootnow]

Would I have bitten your hand off for the position we're in now if you'd offered it to me at the beginning of the season? Of course. I am not on the verge of committing suicide due to our recent run especially because of this. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with the performances or results in the last 3 games.

What did people expect from these 3 games? We're not Wigan ffs, we shouldn't be happy with 0 points but plucky performances. We gained 4 points from these fixtures last season and since then, we've gotten better and Arsenal and Man utd have gotten worse. The performance against Arsenal was an absolute shocker and the performance against Man utd was what we're used to seeing from Tottenham over the past 10 years against them. We seem to be losing our concentration at the back, big time.

But anyway, I'm happy with the season overall so far. We need to make sure Stoke don't score first in the next league game otherwise that could be an excruciating 90 minutes. And let's kick on, regain some composure and concentration, go back to the basics that Redknapp was so good at and get back on track to finish in the CL places.

 

[ArcspacE]

What did people expect from these 3 games? We're not Wigan ffs, we shouldn't be happy with 0 points but plucky performances.

This is the most bizzare part of the argument for me - somehow suggesting we should be accepting results like that because of the 'tough' fixtures and our prior league form allowing us to fudge it up, excluding managers and players from any blame

This is simply unacceptable for a team of our scale and aspirations. Not now, not ever.

 

[DanishWhite]

Would I have bitten your hand off for the position we're in now if you'd offered it to me at the beginning of the season? Of course. I am not on the verge of committing suicide due to our recent run especially because of this. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with the performances or results in the last 3 games.

What did people expect from these 3 games? We're not Wigan ffs, we shouldn't be happy with 0 points but plucky performances. We gained 4 points from these fixtures last season and since then, we've gotten better and Arsenal and Man utd have gotten worse. The performance against Arsenal was an absolute shocker and the performance against Man utd was what we're used to seeing from Tottenham over the past 10 years against them. We seem to be losing our concentration at the back, big time.

But anyway, I'm happy with the season overall so far. We need to make sure Stoke don't score first in the next league game otherwise that could be an excruciating 90 minutes. And let's kick on, regain some composure and concentration, go back to the basics that Redknapp was so good at and get back on track to finish in the CL places.

Disagree

Results come and go. Wind, luck and Chris Foy will ensure that much.

But when are not performing well, it's very unlikely that we'll get anything. And we have simply not been putting in good performances for a while now and if that's not worrying, I don't know what it is.

As a foreigner I have recieved my fair share of "go see the games" flak. Well, this time I do have seen our games. And I do wonder, if people in these debates actually do ? Do they look at the football games, look at the level of football presented, look how lost we looked against Arsenal, how resigned we were from the very start at HOME against Utd or how clueless our attacking play was at Everton and think "yes, this looks very nice, more than enough to stay third" ?

I mean, the results and the numbers look awful. A 10 point gab narrowed to 1. A disaster. But even if we completely disregard the numbers, are people actually happy with the level of football performance ? Are the players ? Should the manager be ?

 

[DanishWhite]

This is the most bizzare part of the argument for me - somehow suggesting we should be accepting results like that because of the 'tough' fixtures and our prior league form allowing us to fudge it up, excluding managers and players from any blame

I concur. Baffling.

And look at the fudging games. The football. Do people watch the football ? We were horrible in all 3 games.

 

[ArcspacE]

I concur. Baffling.

And look at the fudging games. The football. Do people watch the football ? We were horrible in all 3 games.

We've been poor since Chelsea bar 1-2 odd flashed in the pan

Whether all that media flimflam talk about the title (lol) got to the players and they simply decided turning up is enough to win instead of actually playing or whether management has reached its peak too soon and look completely clueless as far as an attacking Plan B goes (Everton few days ago) - either / or - they need to pull it together very soon or we'll fudge up (again) what was our best start in 100 years and a foundation to consolidate this club as a solid participant in CL football with great aspirations instead of some eternal fudging bottlers who made the CL by mistake once and were the laughing stock ever since. Not to mention the quality of players another CL qualification would attract

 

[DanishWhite]

We've been poor since Chelsea bar 1-2 odd flashed in the pan

Whether all that media flimflam talk about the title (lol) got to the players and they simply decided turning up is enough to win instead of actually playing or whether management has reached its peak too soon and look completely clueless as far as an attacking Plan B goes (Everton few days ago) - either / or - they need to pull it together very soon or we'll fudge up (again) what was our best start in 100 years and a foundation to consolidate this club as a solid participant in CL football with great aspirations instead of some eternal fudging bottlers who made the CL by mistake once and were the laughing stock ever since. Not to mention the quality of players another CL qualification would attract

Again.

I concur.

First it was a lack of invention, but the last couple of games including Liverpool and Stevenage it's looked very much like a lack of bottle, and occasionally a lack of effort.

How people can try to talk that away -the club included - I'll never understand.

 

[Modric THFC]

Again.

I concur.

First it was a lack of invention, but the last couple of games including Liverpool and Stevenage it's looked very much like a lack of bottle, and occasionally a lack of effort.

How people can try to talk that away -the club included - I'll never understand.

Harry has to talk it away. Its his job, he's trying to keep the players heads up etc.

On here though, its because some fans feel they have to defend the club at every point. They think they have to go forums and support the club in case the media, other clubs players and our players are reading.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think we've actually been fairly unlucky this season - to say we've been horrible in the past 3 games is absolute rubbish.

The games we have lost, have all seen unfortunate circumstances surrounding them. The first 2 against the Manchester's, we had the Modric thing hanging over us, meaning we couldn't play him in one of them and in the other we took him off when we would never usually do that. We also didn't have Parker or Adebayor, and while it's really our choice to conduct business late in the window, it means we play two of what should be our closest rivals with a seriously weakened team. The Modric thing is definitely a factor though, and not our doing. That's Chelsea unsettling him.

Then we go on a great run. And we can completely done out of the game at Stoke by the referee. We then have Lennon injured and not able to play against Chelsea. Fair enough, we should have a deep enough squad to be able to cover if we want to compete at the top of the table, but it's just another example of bad luck and not being able to play our strongest team against the clubs closest to us. Bad luck.

We then keep doing well enough and we get to Emirates Marketing Project away. We are playing ok, but find ourselves 2-0 down. We then do brilliantly to claw it back to 2-2. Then, in what would probably be the last kick of the game, Bale squares the ball juuuuust beyond Defoe with too much pace when a simple tap in should have been able to hand us an amazing victory. But it misses Defoe, they go up the other end and score. The margin between us still being in the title race at that point (as well as an extra 3 points ahead of Arsenal and Chelsea) to them pulling further away is fag paper thin. Hugely unlucky.

We then do ok and get to Liverpool away. A point is a good result at Anfield, although our manager is in court and thus our coaches set us up to park the bus which isn't the way we would usually play. There's also the point of not having Redknapp there to motivate the players or make decisions to benefit us during the game, which is unlucky against a top 6 club. Once again we have no Lennon in an important game, and this time Sandro can't even come into the team. And even considering all that, we play well, Liverpool don't really trouble us too much whatsoever, and in the last 5 minutes Bale gets sent clean through on goal, one on one, and hits the ball straight at Reina. He had no-one around him, and should have buried that. It would have been 2 extra points, potentially keeping us in touching distance of the title and also pulling away from Arsenal and Chelsea. But no, we create the clearest chance of the game yet again and it doesn't fall our way.

We then continue in 3rd and get to the run we are on now. Arsenal was a game we didn't deserve anything from, of course not. However form does play a huge part, and so does psychology. Arsenal took a battering from everyone leading up to that game, and they could not have gone any lower. We on the other hand were media darlings after a 5-0 drubbing of Saudi Sportswashing Machine. We would have been more likely to get a result had Arsenal been on a good run, I'm absolutely certain of that. Even at 2-0 up, we never for a second looked like we would win that game. And it was because Arsenal simply could go no lower, the only place their confidence could go was up, and it has to happen in a derby where form goes out the window. This then hands them the confidence to come from behind and win their next 3 games after us, and coincides with our worst run of the season to close the gap between us. Once again, there is no Lennon in an important game. Maybe he wouldn't have made much difference in this game, but yet again we can't play our strongest team in the big games against the clubs closest to us and it costs us.

We then come to Man United, and despite missing Parker through suspension (not unlucky, our/his fault for getting the bookings) and Bale through illness (pretty unlucky, how can we stop that?) we play so well against Man United that SAF hasn't gotten out of his seat so much in years. And yet we lose, somehow. Unlucky against a club close to us in a big game. Again. Then we go to Everton, and fair enough the first 45 minutes was bad. However they scored from their one real chance and the second half was compeltely one way traffic. We hit the post with a chance from about a yard out, and the ball just wouldn't fall for us. A point would have been more than deserved. And that completes our bad run (so far).

We've been unlucky this season when it matters the most. I haven't even mentioned the amount of times Adebayor has somehow had goals disallowed due to being wrongly offside or through some phantom hand ball (Chelsea, a big game, and a game where Ashley Cole's handball in the buildup to their goal goes unpunished - the luck just isn't with us when it matters again). The margins are so fine, and in another year we could very well still be in the title race. There's probably other thing's I'm forgetting that have gone against us too.

As for luck that has gone our way, I'd say the only result that we managed to get when it was pretty clear we didn't deserve it was Fulham away. They had a lot of chances and we were lucky to hold on. I also won't count Wolves at home as us having bad luck (although did we not have a good goal disallowed in that one too?) as they came for a draw and got it, fair enough. Although if the goal I'm thinknig of should have stood then it is bad luck on our part! I'm not going to count Cahill getting sent off for Bolton as luck going for us because we would have probably won that much anyway, it's not a 'fine margin' piece of luck that has gone against us. The luck we have had against us has had a much greater impact because it usually involves teams close to us and therefore the swing is greater.

On the other hand, our luck seems to have all been placed in the FA Cup this year. Favourable draws, other big teams getting drawn against each other, and poor performances where we still seem to manage to get results has seen us in all likelihood book a Wembley appearance. Maybe we will start playing better starting from Bolton in the cup, and maybe we will get some luck in the league. That's what I hope.

I wouldn't be too hard on our management or players though. When it has really mattered to get the rub of the green this season, we just haven't got it.

 

[DanishWhite]

I don't agree at all. There has been plenty of moments of bad luck, but also moments of a luck, e.g. both Arsenal goals, keeping the draw at Liverpool, etc.

I saw those games I don't think we played well. Not at all. Luck influences results, but it doesn't influence whether we play well. And we don't. Players look despondent, timid and reactionary. That's all there, right out on the pitch (or TV screen) for everyone to see.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I don't agree at all. There has been plenty of moments of bad luck, but also moments of a luck, e.g. both Arsenal goals, keeping the draw at Liverpool, etc.

I saw those games I don't think we played well. Not at all. Luck influences results, but it doesn't influence whether we play well. And we don't. Players look despondent, timid and reactionary. That's all there, right out on the pitch (or TV screen) for everyone to see.

In the grand scheme of things those Arsenal goals weren't going to make much difference, we were always going to lose that game as soon as it kicked off, form, confidence and psychology had pretty much decided that. It was their chance to take no more brick and it was bound to happen. Against Liverpool, it was a pretty drab game and we had clearly the best chance.

We've played well in the last 2 games deserving at least something from each, and there's not been many games all season where we truly deserved to lose. It's just when it comes down to it, when the potential for swing is at it's greatest, it hasn't gone our way. We've not had any fine margin piece of luck go our way, save for maybe Fulham away. Arsenal we deserved to lose so the goals weren't exactly fine margin, but any other time, where we could have turned draws into wins or losses into draws, it just hasn't happened for us due to bad luck against some of the clubs closest to us.

 

[gungy]

this is quite riveting stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a36NTo2LmuQ&feature=related

 

[DanishWhite]

In the grand scheme of things those Arsenal goals weren't going to make much difference, we were always going to lose that game as soon as it kicked off, form, confidence and psychology had pretty much decided that. It was their chance to take no more brick and it was bound to happen. Against Liverpool, it was a pretty drab game and we had clearly the best chance.

We've played well in the last 2 games deserving at least something from each, and there's not been many games all season where we truly deserved to lose. It's just when it comes down to it, when the potential for swing is at it's greatest, it hasn't gone our way. We've not had any fine margin piece of luck go our way, save for maybe Fulham away. Arsenal we deserved to lose so the goals weren't exactly fine margin, but any other time, where we could have turned draws into wins or losses into draws, it just hasn't happened for us due to bad luck against some of the clubs closest to us.

You must be watching completely different games to me. We deserved to lose both Utd and Everton, we might see much of the ball, and teams are happy to let us do so, but most of the time we aren't remotely dangerous. They just know, whenever they need a goal off us they can apply a 10-20 minute heavy full pitch pressing game and we are bound to yield.

Oddly, you seem to admit that we were bound to lose to Arsenal a.o. because of "form". Yes, we are in poor form. Because we are not playing well but playing poorly.

It really is simple.

 

[ArcspacE]

The possession point is a good one. Teams have figured out our only Plan A by now and starting with Liverpool have managed to counteract that successfully.

We need to be a lot more versatile in the final third instead of the usual predictable flimflam sideways passes in the middle and lack of clinical finishing upfront

In addition - Ade's loss of form has had a substantial impact on our play. As sharp as Defoe looks lately he cannot and will not carry our season out.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

No urgency at all in the first half hour against Everton, no movement and no tempo. The writing was on the wall. Name ONE PLAYER in form at PRESENT, apart from Defoe?



Gary.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You must be watching completely different games to me. We deserved to lose both Utd and Everton, we might see much of the ball, and teams are happy to let us do so, but most of the time we aren't remotely dangerous. They just know, whenever they need a goal off us they can apply a 10-20 minute heavy full pitch pressing game and we are bound to yield.

Oddly, you seem to admit that we were bound to lose to Arsenal a.o. because of "form". Yes, we are in poor form. Because we are not playing well but playing poorly.

It really is simple.

More Arsenal's form bound to suddenly turn. We were in good form and had just smashed Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

We didn't deserve to lose against United and Everton. You don't dominate for 45 minutes straight and deserve to lose. The fact is we missed a chance from a yard out and if that had gone in the story would be that there was good spirit shown to play back at an Everton side in good form and control the game on their ground.

I can admit that we weren't looking too dangerous. We were snatching at chances in the final third and weren't composed, but it's never gonna happen that we turn up to these teams and completely turn them over. Most goals will come from mistakes or a lack of concentration rather than through tearing through a top half team in good form after beating title contenders the week before.

We hardly gave Everton many shots at our goal either, they got one clear chance from a Kaboul lapse and it cost us. We definitely did not deserve to lose that game. We missed from a yard out after dominating the half, a point is the least we should have gotten. We've just been unlucky/bricking ourselves by missing key chances that if scored would have seen us in a far safer position and challenging for the title. Circumstances have gone against us when it matters this year. We are not a poor team, and we haven't been playing crap for 3 months for goodness sake.

 

[africanspurs]

I was pretty tinkled off after Everton, although now I've calmed down I realise that Everton was by no means a three point banker, and that we deserved something from the game. I guess it's the culmination of three tough games and defeats that brought out the kneejerk in me.

But now back to reality, how many of you would've expected us to be in this position at this stage of the season? And if someone showed you this exact table in August (especially after those two horror shows against the Manchester clubs), how many of you wouldn't have been delighted?!

There are 10 games to go. We are 3rd, a point clear of Arsenal and 4 points clear of a Chelsea side who have City next. For the first time since the very early 90's we are the neutral's favourite team again. We are about to play in the QF of the FA Cup, at home.

When you take the season as a whole, and don't negatively focus on the last couple of weeks in isolation.....it's not too shabby is it? Especially when even taken the last two bad results in isolation we didn't deserve defeat in either game.

stellar post, as patronising as my next comment is about to sound...i honestly feel that this is the only adult view to take. everything else to me reeks of immaturity and/or passion

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I disagree, as we have not been playing well for a good deal longer than the last few weeks. Defensively Saudi Sportswashing Machine were undermanned and Pardew admitted he got selection wrong. We have not played decent football since before the new year. We ground out results, despite poor play, but now are not doing this. Which of our players at present are showing form which reinforces an optimistic view of the team's prospects?


Gary.

 

[DanishWhite]

More Arsenal's form bound to suddenly turn. We were in good form and had just smashed Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

We didn't deserve to lose against United and Everton. You don't dominate for 45 minutes straight and deserve to lose. The fact is we missed a chance from a yard out and if that had gone in the story would be that there was good spirit shown to play back at an Everton side in good form and control the game on their ground.

I can admit that we weren't looking too dangerous. We were snatching at chances in the final third and weren't composed, but it's never gonna happen that we turn up to these teams and completely turn them over. Most goals will come from mistakes or a lack of concentration rather than through tearing through a top half team in good form after beating title contenders the week before.

We hardly gave Everton many shots at our goal either, they got one clear chance from a Kaboul lapse and it cost us. We definitely did not deserve to lose that game. We missed from a yard out after dominating the half, a point is the least we should have gotten. We've just been unlucky/bricking ourselves by missing key chances that if scored would have seen us in a far safer position and challenging for the title. Circumstances have gone against us when it matters this year. We are not a poor team, and we haven't been playing crap for 3 months for goodness sake.

How can we not "deserve" to lose, if Everton dominated the 45 minutes we did not dominate (by your own admission) and if Everton did put away what few chances they got ?

Again, you must watch different games to me. We had a bright spell in the 2nd half which was however all huff-and-puff and afterwards we returned to just aimlessly pass the ball around (and lose it quite often too) with no urgency, no pro-action and just no plan.

The Utd game was pretty much the same, just without the huff-and-puff. We were resigned to losing as soon as they scored the first.

 

[DanishWhite]

stellar post, as patronising as my next comment is about to sound...i honestly feel that this is the only adult view to take. everything else to me reeks of immaturity and/or passion

True.

It is nailed on patronising, in particular when the view is built on invalid premises.