Ange in or out?

[thfcsteff]

those who want ange in but wanted conte/jose/nuno out, why?
the football is significantly worse which doesn't bode well for 25/26

Mate,

I've personally stated why I'd give him the chance several times in the last week. Others have stated the reasons behind their opinions. Are you missing them?

Put simply (again) the potential for buy-in having got them across the line to win a major trophy, the proper pre-season we'd have, the squad health being far better, and the lessons learnt from some horrendous stuff on and off the pitch all point to a possibility we will see a large upswing in performances and how we deal with multi-fronts (until all the injuries we were competitive on four fronts - the league form started sharply declining in January from memory). I disagree that the football is worse (unless we're only talking about the last foru Europa matches).

I can see the arguments for keeping him and moving on this summer. I would take the gamble.

 

[kb 1984]

those who want ange in but wanted conte/jose/nuno out, why?
the football is significantly worse which doesn't bode well for 25/26

Conte got sacked the moment he walked into the press conference & lost the plot blaming everybody but the tea lady. The week before he blamed the fans. Ange hasn't done that if he did Daniel would weild the axe Quick time. So yep i wanted him gone

If rumours are to be believed the playing group approached Daniel & said they couldn't play for Jose anymore if you loose the players you are fudged
Daniel swiftly acted even though we had a cup final.
It doesn't seem the players have turned on Ange
Again I wanted him gone because he lost the players

it was Paratici after I think the utd game that decided he had to go I wasn't one of those screaming for his head. I think he suffered with fans because everyone knew he wasn't first choice or even 4th choice.

If true that Levy Paratici & Venkatesham are making the decision whether Ange stays or goes I wonder how that works. Majority rules doubt it

should they decide he stays will the Ange out fans except that decision & get behind Ange.If he's gone the new guy will have my 100% support

 

[kb 1984]

Mate,

I've personally stated why I'd give him the chance several times in the last week. Others have stated the reasons behind their opinions. Are you missing them?

Put simply (again) the potential for buy-in having got them across the line to win a major trophy, the proper pre-season we'd have, the squad health being far better, and the lessons learnt from some horrendous stuff on and off the pitch all point to a possibility we will see a large upswing in performances and how we deal with multi-fronts (until all the injuries we were competitive on four fronts - the league form started sharply declining in January from memory). I disagree that the football is worse (unless we're only talking about the last foru Europa matches).

I can see the arguments for keeping him and moving on this summer. I would take the gamble.

Whatever your response is they will just say 17th & a whole lot of stats. we could put up arguments every day but All we are really doing is going around in circles getting nowhere fast.

 

[kb 1984]

I think any manager who loses twenty two from thirty eight games at any professional sport would be finished.

To finish in the top four, a team usually loses a maximum of twelve games. I can't see this man winning ten more games next season.

Venkatesham and Paratici will also have some say in Ange's future.

Trophy win or not, the Premier League and securing membership of it is a priority. Of the final day standings of the last eleven seasons we would have been relegated, but have a nice shiny cup to take down with us.

Being in denial of the facts is a reasoning that many can't be helped, and I am all good with that.

Levy, Venkatesham and Paratici I suspect won't be.

Not in denial of the facts. I just don't think you should sack someone who wins you a trophy after 41/17 years & gets you champions league. I understand your point of view I don't understand why you can't understand mine.

 

[Gazza]

Not in denial of the facts. I just don't think you should sack someone who wins you a trophy after 41/17 years & gets you champions league. I understand your point of view I don't understand why you can't understand mine.

I understand your point but why gamble on a manager that has the lowest of the low for us in league form. I’m not confident that we could beat some of the promoted teams in the league and just want to cry at the thought of how Arsenal have easily dispatched us under this manager.

He won a competition very good. He changed his gang ho reckless approach to win it but couldn’t do diddly squat in the league. He was complaining that some spurs fans wanted us to lose the Emirates Marketing Project game so Arsenal don’t win the league yet managed to sacrifice the whole of the league games for the Europa.

He has not shown enough to suggest that he can mix it up with the league and his excuses were starting to grate. He is actually deluded in thinking that people are actually questioning his record.

 

[thfcsteff]

Whatever your response is they will just say 17th & a whole lot of stats. we could put up arguments every day but All we are really doing is going around in circles getting nowhere fast.

You're right.

 

[kb 1984]

I understand your point but why gamble on a manager that has the lowest of the low for us in league form. I’m not confident that we could beat some of the promoted teams in the league and just want to cry at the thought of how Arsenal have easily dispatched us under this manager.

He won a competition very good. He changed his gang ho reckless approach to win it but couldn’t do diddly squat in the league. He was complaining that some spurs fans wanted us to lose the Emirates Marketing Project game so Arsenal don’t win the league yet managed to sacrifice the whole of the league games for the Europa.

He has not shown enough to suggest that he can mix it up with the league and his excuses were starting to grate. He is actually deluded in thinking that people are actually questioning his record.

I get were you are coming from & I fully understand your point of view. I have witnessed us get relegated so I understand peoples concerns. there is this part of me that just can't justify sacking someone after achieving what we all said we wanted it just feels wrong to me.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

This is where the rubber meets the road.

I haven's seen any evidence where he will improve the team on the pitch.

In the EL competition, we succeeded pretty much with neither centre half, left back, and in the closing stages our Captain, and central midfield of Bergvall and Maddison but still won it.

When we had a fully fit squad in the PL we still lost for fun, and much tougher league over thirty eight games.

From my angle i didn't see any improvement despite Ange categorically stating that once we had our injured players back we "would see a different Spurs team"

We didn't and the losses continued unabated.

I can't see the signing of three, four or five players making any difference. At PL level the manager just can't cut it.

Agreed. There would have to be a fundamental change for me for him to succeed. A reinvention of who he is. Not saying that couldn't happen, but I just don't see it happening. For me he needs to:
1) Modify his training regime for high intensity football twice a week, to reduce stress and injury risk.
2) Modify his defensive tactical approach, to either:
A) "One stays, one goes" with the full backs or
B) "Both go" but only if the DM drops back to form a 3 (the Pochettino approach).
3) Modify his attacking and pressing approach to one that is less chaotic, training more on zones of engagement and pressing and moving as a unit to prevent the pitch becoming too stretched.
4) If he's going to deploy "Ange Wall" in big games, he needs to finese this to increase the counter attacking threat to prevent us becoming pinned in and picked off by better teams.

That's a lot to work on, and makes me think we'd be better off just brining in someone that's more advanced at this level....

 

[lurker of old]

I thought it was interesting that Maddison was talking on his golf day, and remarked of Postecoglu's self-belief that "Its probably his biggest strength". I guess when you lose so many games, you need that self-belief. And if Ange honestly believes that he can reinvent his approach to win in the PL by having a much more organised defence, then I'd give him the chance, because it is a gamble whichever way you choose. After 26 years coaching, he must have tried all the formation options by now- but whether he is capable of re-inventing "Ange-ball" - who knows?????? Unless he could present a pretty strong vision of how he would change things, you'd have thought the Board would have to part ways.

 

[Muttley]

I thought it was interesting that Maddison was talking on his golf day, and remarked of Postecoglu's self-belief that "Its probably his biggest strength". I guess when you lose so many games, you need that self-belief. And if Ange honestly believes that he can reinvent his approach to win in the PL by having a much more organised defence, then I'd give him the chance, because it is a gamble whichever way you choose. After 26 years coaching, he must have tried all the formation options by now- but whether he is capable of re-inventing "Ange-ball" - who knows?????? Unless he could present a pretty strong vision of how he would change things, you'd have thought the Board would have to part ways.

I think it is the ability to see that things aren't working and then the ability to change / tweak them that is important. I would argue that Ange has taken quite a long time to change when both the optics and the stats are telling his tactics aren't working. There is another challenge in that even if his tactics could work, the players were seriously struggling to adopt them and make them stick. Even a fit Ange squad couldn't replicate what was being asked of them for more than 2 games in a row and even a few changes to the team threw the system out. There is so much data on this, even if you look beyond the injuries and fatigue periods of both seasons.

Personally, I think he should have good answers to these tough football questions at the end of the season to keep his job. I'm obviously talking about to his employers, not us. If he answers them well and gives the club a baseline on how he can be judged in the new season then I'm all good for him staying. If he gets defensive, arrogant or hides behind even more silly narratives then he gets the P45.

If I were Ange, I would literally tell my employers that they should expect a conservative start to the season. The focus will shift to protecting our goal versus scoring goals and over time we will open up and have both. The expansion will start more in the home games where we can be a little more elaborate, especially against the lower mid PL sides. I would also provide that honest assessment of my coaching staff and perhaps even ask for 1 or 2 more, especially if Mason leaves.

I think there is a path forward for Ange but it is down to him to change in this environment.

 

[NoLimits01]

Angeball certainly didn’t work in the PL last season, but how much of that is the system (probably quite a bit) but also how much is down to the coaches, I believe he has quite an inexperienced coaching setup?

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Angeball certainly didn’t work in the PL last season, but how much of that is the system (probably quite a bit) but also how much is down to the coaches, I believe he has quite an inexperienced coaching setup?

Yeah the club didn't help him. He's inexperienced at this level himself and therefore surrounding him with more inexperience was a poor move and one i guess could be a reason why the club stuck with him and may give him another crack (thinking about Munn's comments along the lines of his job being to remove obstacles that prevent his reports performing). If the club acknowledge internally that their own failings have contributed to Ange's failings that could be a big reason why he may keep his job.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Is Ange a manager or a coach?

Is he a Terry Neill (excuse my French) who needs a Don Howe (ditto, although I have a lot of time for Don Howe)? If he is, can we give him a Don Howe (or a Martin Jol, if you prefer)?

I am getting the sense he is more interested in the big picture and changing the culture, rather than the nitty-gritty of "managing transitions in play". Many before him have tried and failed but Poch, for one, seemed to get most of the way there.

Would he work with a coach who might take some of the plaudits for any success?

Answers on a postcard*, please.

* I really must update my cultural references.

 

[Mcfee]

Is Ange a manager or a coach?

Is he a Terry Neill (excuse my French) who needs a Don Howe (ditto, although I have a lot of time for Don Howe)? If he is, can we give him a Don Howe (or a Martin Jol, if you prefer)?

I am getting the sense he is more interested in the big picture and changing the culture, rather than the nitty-gritty of "managing transitions". Many before him have tried and failed but Poch, for one, seemed to get most of the way there.

Would he work with a coach who might take some of the plaudits for any success?

Answers on a postcard*, please.

* I really must update my cultural references.

Very astute. Ange offers something here and it would be a pity to discard it.

 

[Mikey10]

Is Ange a manager or a coach?

Is he a Terry Neill (excuse my French) who needs a Don Howe (ditto, although I have a lot of time for Don Howe)? If he is, can we give him a Don Howe (or a Martin Jol, if you prefer)?

I am getting the sense he is more interested in the big picture and changing the culture, rather than the nitty-gritty of "managing transitions". Many before him have tried and failed but Poch, for one, seemed to get most of the way there.

Would he work with a coach who might take some of the plaudits for any success?

Answers on a postcard*, please.

* I really must update my cultural references.

I hadn’t really thought about the situation from that angle. From what I know, Ferguson relied heavily on having a great coaching team around him, didn’t he?

Hmmm…

 

[Gutter Boy]

Maybe we should make an approach for Jesus Perez to come in as assistant?

 

[fernadez]

Said from when he came that the coaching set up was madness.

A brand new manager alongside brand new coaches trying to instil a brand new tactical system. He did bring some in, so it's not all on the club, not bringing people he'd worked with before is just not optimal at all.

 

[Lost Mango]

those who want ange in but wanted conte/jose/nuno out, why?
the football is significantly worse which doesn't bode well for 25/26

Wanted Ange in until the last trophy was unavailable.

I'm ambivalent now but haven't changed my vote so it is still 'yes'.

Wanted Mourinho out as he is a horrible persona (sure he is all lovely and cuddly in the flesh and it is all an act) who produced dire football.
Was OK with Conte but it was obvious it was heading south after his health issues/extended leave.
Have an issue with so-called World class coaches who can only succeed with the right players for their only system.
Nuno I wanted to do well but he didn't get the results (or the support) needed to prevent what would appear to be lined up in advance that he was a dead man walking as soon as Conte had had a long enough holiday and wanted to come in.

Still not convinced by any of the names being linked. Not keen on the return of Pochetino as fairly sure it will fall flat.

 

[Lost Mango]

I hadn’t really thought about the situation from that angle. From what I know, Ferguson relied heavily on having a great coaching team around him, didn’t he?

Hmmm…

Fergie really only did well when he had a meaningful number 2 from what I recall. The odd year between coaches (was it McClaren, then Quieroz, then Phelan and then Rene Mugelsteen?) were lower successes.

 

[JerusalemMan]

I think any manager who loses twenty two from thirty eight games at any professional sport would be finished.

To finish in the top four, a team usually loses a maximum of twelve games. I can't see this man winning ten more games next season.

Venkatesham and Paratici will also have some say in Ange's future.

Trophy win or not, the Premier League and securing membership of it is a priority. Of the final day standings of the last eleven seasons we would have been relegated, but have a nice shiny cup to take down with us.

Being in denial of the facts is a reasoning that many can't be helped, and I am all good with that.

Levy, Venkatesham and Paratici I suspect won't be.

You can't merge this season's games with previous seasons' outcomes to simply be presented as a bare fact.

Despite our pitiful finish, there was really no chance of us being relegated.
If there had been - and this comes down to belief not facts - I do not think we'd have seen the same level of performances and results in the latter end of the season and we'd have avoided it anyway.