Ange in or out?

[Gutter Boy]

You can't merge this season's games with previous seasons' outcomes to simply be presented as a bare fact.

Despite our pitiful finish, there was really no chance of us being relegated.
If there had been - and this comes down to belief not facts - I do not think we'd have seen the same level of performances and results in the latter end of the season and we'd have avoided it anyway.

So we were capable of doing better than we did, but just couldn't be arsed?

 

[treepits]

Ange has cemented his status as a legend of this club, whether you like him or not, simply by being only the third manager to win a European trophy here. He did it by not playing 'Ange-ball' for many of the matches

Regardless of injuries, the gung-ho approach doesn't work in the PL so if I was Levy my question to Ange would simply be 'do you plan on Ange-balling in the prem next season?' Yes - sack him for being a stubborn ass. No - keep him for delivering on achieving a trophy and CL qualification

 

[JerusalemMan]

So we were capable of doing better than we did, but just couldn't be arsed?

Kind of, yes. That seems to be what we've been told.
Focus was on the trophy, somewhat to the detriment of the league. Which seems to indicate that if the need was there, focus could have been realigned.

 

[Yiddo]

Lets be honest, if Mourinho, Poch or Conte had took the Europa league seriously and put out a strong squad in the knock out stages they would have won this trophy aswell. In the same situation all 3 of those above also win this seasons Europa league. We had a pretty straight forward knockout stages and beat teams we should have beaten.

I’m not knocking the achievement and i get its the first thing we have won for ages but lets not make out that it was next to impossible to win.

 

[Muttley]

Ange has cemented his status as a legend of this club, whether you like him or not, simply by being only the third manager to win a European trophy here. He did it by not playing 'Ange-ball' for many of the matches

Regardless of injuries, the gung-ho approach doesn't work in the PL so if I was Levy my question to Ange would simply be 'do you plan on Ange-balling in the prem next season?' Yes - sack him for being a stubborn ass. No - keep him for delivering on achieving a trophy and CL qualification

I think the flaw in your argument there is expecting Levy to have that conversation. Ange would tie him up in knots if a real detailed football conversation ensued. Levy needs to play his role and stay out of it. I'd be interested to hear views from someone like Lange who has worked in a coaching capacity. Fabio always struck me as being a real football person as well. Not sure about Munn, but clearly Ange reports to him. He is the one that needs to coordinate that conversation leveraging other members of that leadership team. The new CEO might just be c-level but could also be a football DNA guy as well. Not sure he's even really got his feet under the desk yet though.

 

[TonyL]

Lets be honest, if Mourinho, Poch or Conte had took the Europa league seriously and put out a strong squad in the knock out stages they would have won this trophy aswell. In the same situation all 3 of those above also win this seasons Europa league. We had a pretty straight forward knockout stages and beat teams we should have beaten.

I’m not knocking the achievement and i get its the first thing we have won for ages but lets not make out that it was next to impossible to win.

I actually high hopes for Mourinho's last season, even though the league perfomance was a mess, but I thought he would take us far in the Europa League to salvage the season, only to see bloody Dinamo Zagreb went past us. And yes he did prioritize the cups and thought it's going to save him very much like Ange did. Conte is a league manager and usually have very little to show for in the cups. As for Poch, I don't have much to say when he has barely won anything in his entire career.

 

[Yiddo]

I had high hopes for Mourinho's last season, even though the league perfomance was a mess, but I think he would take us far in the Europa League to salvage the season, only to see bloody Dinamo Zagreb went past us. And yes he did prioritize the cups and thought it's going to save him very much like Ange did. Conte is very much a league manager and have very little to show for in the cups. As for Poch, I don't have much to say when he has barely won anything in his entire career.

To be fair to Poch, the majority of the time he was with us he was competing in the Champions League and he also got us to within touching distance of that. A lot harder to win a Champions League than a Europa league title.

 

[HarryBreadbap]

You can't merge this season's games with previous seasons' outcomes to simply be presented as a bare fact.

Despite our pitiful finish, there was really no chance of us being relegated.
If there had been - and this comes down to belief not facts - I do not think we'd have seen the same level of performances and results in the latter end of the season and we'd have avoided it anyway.

"and this comes down to belief not facts"

I think that facts are more of a viable argument than beliefs.

Unless there is a Loch Ness Monster.


If you believe that a seventeenth place finish is ok (relegation or not) that form is not acceptable. Winning a final without Kulu, Maddison and Bergvall show's how weak the opposition was. Fact

Losing a record 22 PL games was the poorest season in ninety years. Fact.

Many teams who have won a Cup, Double or Treble have never finished 17th, due to the Fact of being managed by competent managers.

Our form hasn't been poor this season, it stretches back since our thirteenth game. Fact.

Then magically Ange say's in January he decided to concentrate on the EL, the same month that he bragged "when we have our injured players back you will see a different Tottenham".

We didn't it got worse. Fact.

Being in denial of the Facts is all well and good, believes are what one thinks they know or think.

 

[DTA]

I think the flaw in your argument there is expecting Levy to have that conversation. Ange would tie him up in knots if a real detailed football conversation ensued. Levy needs to play his role and stay out of it. I'd be interested to hear views from someone like Lange who has worked in a coaching capacity. Fabio always struck me as being a real football person as well. Not sure about Munn, but clearly Ange reports to him. He is the one that needs to coordinate that conversation leveraging other members of that leadership team. The new CEO might just be c-level but could also be a football DNA guy as well. Not sure he's even really got his feet under the desk yet though.

I don’t think that Levy is as “football dumb” as people make him out to be. But I agree Ange should absolutely tie him into knots when it comes to a detailed tactical explanation and discussion in fact he should be able to do that to Munn and Lange as well, I would be very surprised if he can’t.

Maybe we need an outside expert in, a manager maybe that has played against his system? Or just someone relatively successful in the prem but has no desire to get the job, ie he can come in as a short term consultant offer his measured opinion and go back to coaching somewhere else… Ranieri ????

 

[JerusalemMan]

"and this comes down to belief not facts"

I think that facts are more of a viable argument than beliefs.

Unless there is a Loch Ness Monster.


If you believe that a seventeenth place finish is ok (relegation or not) that form is not acceptable. Winning a final without Kulu, Maddison and Bergvall show's how weak the opposition was. Fact

Losing a record 22 PL games was the poorest season in ninety years. Fact.

Many teams who have won a Cup, Double or Treble have never finished 17th, due to the Fact of being managed by competent managers.

Our form hasn't been poor this season, it stretches back since our thirteenth game. Fact.

Then magically Ange say's in January he decided to concentrate on the EL, the same month that he bragged "when we have our injured players back you will see a different Tottenham".

We didn't it got worse. Fact.

Being in denial of the Facts is all well and good, believes are what one thinks they know or think.

I don't disagree with any of the actual facts you present.

 

[Sandman]

I went soft for a few days after the win. I said he gets 10 games at the start of the season to prove he can change.

He has seemed to use whatever he can to pass the blame on all our defeats. The fact is we are so up naively and unless we have all our top players we give teams a chance and our tactics have been worked out and are easy to attack.

I want him out. I have wanted him out for months so I'm going to stand by it. A mutual parting of the ways. He can leave with his head held high. We can move on.

 

[metalgear]

its going to be fun to see everyone's expectations of ange next season if he's still around.

going up to 10th would be a huge improvement already but it won't be easy, 5th seems like a pipe dream with angeball defending and risk of injuries

no europa so we will meet the top teams in the EPL who have proven problematic

maybe we will end up 17th and we win the champions league haha

 

[thfcsteff]

I hadn’t really thought about the situation from that angle. From what I know, Ferguson relied heavily on having a great coaching team around him, didn’t he?

Hmmm…

He had a set-up around (and above) him that was solid plus yes, he would switch his chief assistant 'head coach' (his 'Howe') every two to three years, sometimes less.

 

[thfcsteff]

Said from when he came that the coaching set up was madness.

A brand new manager alongside brand new coaches trying to instil a brand new tactical system. He did bring some in, so it's not all on the club, not bringing people he'd worked with before is just not optimal at all.

This goes back to the question I think Ange critics should be asking, which is how much did the club not do/not correct/did not know how to do with regards to the root and branch change they wanted in summer 2023 versus how to do it. I'd like to think everyone has learned an awful lot these past two seasons. Some seem afraid we'll just keep making the same mistakes. I suppose it comes down to what you hope/believe?

 

[thfcsteff]

So we were capable of doing better than we did, but just couldn't be arsed?

No.

 

[thfcsteff]

"and this comes down to belief not facts"

I think that facts are more of a viable argument than beliefs.

Indeed, when context is applied...and when all the facts in a situation are stated, and not just the ones convenient to an opinion.

Unless there is a Loch Ness Monster.


If you believe that a seventeenth place finish is ok (relegation or not) that form is not acceptable.

Who here has said that is acceptable as a standard expectation?

Winning a final without Kulu, Maddison and Bergvall show's how weak the opposition was. Fact

Winning a final without Kulu, Maddison and Bergvall shows how pragmatic we can be in a 'winner takes all' game. Fact

Losing a record 22 PL games was the poorest season in ninety years. Fact.

Not a fact. It was factually the worst loss record, absolutely. I think many of us who remember being relegated in 1976 wouild consider that a worse league season. I won't say 'fact' in case someone actually does not believe that being relegated is worse than finishing over a dozen points over the relegation zone.

Many teams who have won a Cup, Double or Treble have never finished 17th, due to the Fact of being managed by competent managers.

Not a fact at all. You're not even engaging in the remotest contexts in so many of those situations.

Our form hasn't been poor this season, it stretches back since our thirteenth game. Fact.

Statistically poor numbers. Performances often told a different story last season. This season, the league form became undeniably poor however there are reasons, like them or not.

Then magically Ange say's in January he decided to concentrate on the EL, the same month that he bragged "when we have our injured players back you will see a different Tottenham".

We didn't it got worse. Fact.

Yet you have not mentioned one injury here. Or one stat to show how relatively few times we saw our 'spine' on the pitch. Or acknowledged the importance of match fitness versus physical fitness.

Being in denial of the Facts is all well and good, believes are what one thinks they know or think.

I agree that facts are always going to 'best' assumptions, however for facts to be accurate in any given situation we surely need all the available ones and the application of context. That's where it can get tricky, and we're seeing it in the Ange discussions, where people (myself included) are keen to present facts in a light which can support their own personal perspectives of the situation.

It's an endless discussion in that sense (IMO) as I genuinely don't see anybody shifting their opinion.

Hopefully, whatever happens, we can all get behind 'the manager' once confirmed.

 

[Gutter Boy]

This goes back to the question I think Ange critics should be asking, which is how much did the club not do/not correct/did not know how to do with regards to the root and branch change they wanted in summer 2023 versus how to do it. I'd like to think everyone has learned an awful lot these past two seasons. Some seem afraid we'll just keep making the same mistakes. I suppose it comes down to what you hope/believe?

But the problem is we are getting progressively worse. 10 good games, followed by 91 poor ones. Worse passing, worse movement, less possession, more easily exploited at the back.

If there was any sign of green shoots, you might have a case. But we're just plummeting the championship on our current course

 

[Raziel]

its going to be fun to see everyone's expectations of ange next season if he's still around.

going up to 10th would be a huge improvement already but it won't be easy, 5th seems like a pipe dream with angeball defending and risk of injuries

no europa so we will meet the top teams in the EPL who have proven problematic

maybe we will end up 17th and we win the champions league haha

And if the club or he believe that, it's exactly why he shouldn't be here next season.

Status quo for this club is top 6, it has been for close to 18 years, pretty much every fudging manager and squad the club has been able to field in that time has been able to get there.

Ange has gotten 2 years and 280M plus what I expect is more money again this summer, if he/club isn't 100% certain he can get top 6 with that, he should not be here (to the early point in thread about facts/feelings), and that includes the expectation we will be competing in the CL.

This goes back to the question I think Ange critics should be asking, which is how much did the club not do/not correct/did not know how to do with regards to the root and branch change they wanted in summer 2023 versus how to do it. I'd like to think everyone has learned an awful lot these past two seasons. Some seem afraid we'll just keep making the same mistakes. I suppose it comes down to what you hope/believe?

Hope is not a strategy

Ange has delivered something critical for the club, players and fans, something much more celebrated managers haven't been able to do (regardless of how "weak" people want to claim EL opposition is), and he should be lauded for it, and will have a place in our history regardless of next step, because of it.

What he hasn't shown in 50+ games now is the ability to consistently beat the worse sides in the PL (not even top sides, just bottom 10), consistently not lose at home plus manage a squad.

Feels like the circular argument now is
- All data says he isn't suited to the performances we need in the PL
vs
- Trophy win and vibes are good with players

And somehow people are hoping that the 2nd somehow trumps the first?

 

[thfcsteff]

But the problem is we are getting progressively worse. 10 good games, followed by 91 poor ones. Worse passing, worse movement, less possession, more easily exploited at the back.

If there was any sign of green shoots, you might have a case. But we're just plummeting the championship on our current course

With the same consistent line-up? With the same core players regularly playing?

What can I say? I'd take the gamble for all the reasons I've offered tenfold over several threads, I believe a combination of factors mean we will never ever have even close to as bad a league season again, you don't and are absolutely insistant that we are on a negative trajectory thus he should be canned.
We're locked in.

I've also stated that I think they'll move him on anyway and are just waiting for 'vibes fc' to die down. We'll all see soon enough.

I do not think that even if Paratici can silver tongue his way to getting Inzaghi that he would be a panacea in any way whatsoever.

 

[thfcsteff]

Hope is not a strategy

Of course not.
I am referring to whether someone hopes/believes that -

1) the club have addressed all the internal mistakes and issues which contributed to this league season/injuries, from summer preparations on.
2) the coaching staff have addressed issues and mistakes in their set-up
3) the medical dept has undergone a thorough review
4) the manager has reviewed how he approaches matters
5) the transfer committee has reviewed and re-evaluated what we need squad-wise (right down to getting European numbers right)
6) that overall, an enormous business has done (and been doing all season) the due diligence necessary to come up with the best possible path forwards

I hope/believe that is what has/is happening. And for me personally, if all the boxes above are ticked, then I would see where he can go with this group.
And if after all the above diligence the club decided to move on, I would support the next incoming manager because I support the football club over any individual.