Ange in or out?

[Gutter Boy]

I must admit the snippet of the interview I saw of him after the Brighton Match tinkled me off a bit. When asked how he assessed the season he was smiling saying he was over the moon and how great it was. As he binned so many premier league games maybe he forgot how poor we were in it.

The fact he didn't acknowledge it all was annoying but I haven't seen the whole interview so maybe he did.

Credit where credit is due - he's a class A gaslighter for sure

 

[thfcsteff]

My favourite was Brian Woolnough. As a home and away England fans we spent times chatting with him. He used fan opinion and took them on board. I was genuinely sad when he left this planet. I've stopped being an England fan, but over the years I met loads in the profession. My worst experience was sitting behind Richard Keys on a flight back from a game. Egotistical little misogynist. This was even before the infamous incident.

You're right in that Ange isn't a BSer. What he is though is a thought controller and manipulator. He backed himself to be able to control the interview environment and has mostly failed at it because of the results on the pitch. He thought he could take some conversations off the table and make them out of scope to the journo's because he didn't have answers. He thought he could get spiky to evade important questions and that technique wouldn't get noticed. These subtleties are never lost on me. The journo's are way too smart to fall for that. Klopp and Jose's gaslighting of the media was notorious. I think Ange has that in him as well but hasn't played that card so far.

I wish Ange was more Clough to be fair. He often misses authenticity. Saying that, If I had met Cloughie I would have happily stood up to his rudeness but only where it wasn't warranted. If I was Teddy, I would have absolutely told him to never call me Edward again. I choose what my name is and Cloughie would have accepted and respected that. I do have the same thing with my own name as it goes.

The problem is the journo's aren't allowed to hit back. Only the managers can cross lines which always seems unfair to me. Ange needs to start answering the actual question being asked or we will have more of the same next season. More importantly, he needs to get the team performing on the pitch. That's when his media life gets easier.

Wasn't Brian Woolnough with The Telegraph?

He HAS to try and control/manipulate the situation to a degree (he will have learned that in whatever media training he has had) because that ois precisely what the media do. No journo is in there without an agenda/pre-set of the story they want to get. If he didn't try to do that, he'd be a fool. His predecessors were all very good at it. I personally think he was too honest at times!
Of course he backed himself to control the interview environment. I think he has, frankly, done well. I am not sure what conversations e took 'out of scope' because he didn't have answers? Some things he won't have had answers to (i.e. his own position!), other things he is probably proetecting the club. I think his spikiness was absolutely natural within the environment, further it served to turn the light on him and not his players (who apart from Werner he protected fiercely).

The single greatest issue with media IMO, is the lack of quality within it. He gets asked the same question three times a week, for months on end. He answers it a few times, and then gets frustrated. Which is what modern media wants. The 'show' or 'clickbait moment'...I remember Poch speaking of auras/lemons; he let his guard down. It became his tagline. People want depth and honesty from managers and players, yet the total lack of quality on the media's part, and expectation on the fans' part, decimates the concept.

As you yourself said, the standards of the profession currently simpkly aren't good enough. When you have the likes of Liew resorting to lazy tropes mid-season at a 'reputable' daily, then there's problems IMO...

 

[Muttley]

Wasn't Brian Woolnough with The Telegraph?

I think he was more akin to the red tops actually. Most famous for taking the lead role on the Sunday morning show, The Sunday Supplement, which is analogous to Kevin McCarra pushing boundaries in his time. That was an interesting article. From memory, Brian took over from Jimmy Hill and it was only then that the show went up levels.

4 journo's sitting round a table on a Sunday morning drinking coffee and eating croissants chatting about the week that was. Such a different product to MOTD. Patrick Barclay, Oliver Holt, Henry Winter and many other informed guys getting the chance to debate the football topics of the week whilst talking about what the papers were reporting on a Sunday morning. Then it became the podcast as well. Way more interesting than anything Neville, Carragher, Keane and Redknapp have ever said in my mind.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

22 losses in the league, literally the most by any team that hasn't been relegated, the worse by any Spurs team ever?

Beaten/doubled by absolute dross in the league, same mistakes over and over.

His success (and kudos for the achievement) has literally come when we can only play a certain group of players and abandon every principle of his system.

Point i made before: probably out of desperation, he's targeted the Europa League, played the reserves in the League and thrown all his principles out the window by parking the bus.

So where does that leave us? A man that deserves another season based on success that involved him abandoning everything he stands for, deploying a system that fans will not find acceptable if deployed over a longer run of games and by doing something he won't get away with again (throwing league games).....there's no obvious route for him to repeat the success. It's not a formula he'll be able to replicate next season.

I mean everything tells me he is staying....so the question is....now what?

 

[Muttley]

He HAS to try and control/manipulate the situation to a degree (he will have learned that in whatever media training he has had) because that ois precisely what the media do. No journo is in there without an agenda/pre-set of the story they want to get. If he didn't try to do that, he'd be a fool. His predecessors were all very good at it. I personally think he was too honest at times!

I think I've become the minority here. I want the football conversation more than anything else. The journos don't care about them and Ange definitely doesn't want to talk about football. He knows it is way harder justifying his offside strategy than talking about stonecutters and doctors 26 year tenures. On the flip side, the journo's can barely have a football conversation either. Ange's suicidal offside roulette gambling in deep areas is not even on their radar. They don't even understand the game well enough to see some real problems in our setup. Neither manager or journo even mentioned the Brighton set piece problem. You can still go on a 3 day bender and defend a corner on a Sunday morning. In fact it's preferable to running up and down the pitch. LOL, not even mentioned by anyone.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Wasn't Brian Woolnough with The Telegraph?

He HAS to try and control/manipulate the situation to a degree (he will have learned that in whatever media training he has had) because that ois precisely what the media do. No journo is in there without an agenda/pre-set of the story they want to get. If he didn't try to do that, he'd be a fool. His predecessors were all very good at it. I personally think he was too honest at times!
Of course he backed himself to control the interview environment. I think he has, frankly, done well. I am not sure what conversations e took 'out of scope' because he didn't have answers? Some things he won't have had answers to (i.e. his own position!), other things he is probably proetecting the club. I think his spikiness was absolutely natural within the environment, further it served to turn the light on him and not his players (who apart from Werner he protected fiercely).

The single greatest issue with media IMO, is the lack of quality within it. He gets asked the same question three times a week, for months on end. He answers it a few times, and then gets frustrated. Which is what modern media wants. The 'show' or 'clickbait moment'...I remember Poch speaking of auras/lemons; he let his guard down. It became his tagline. People want depth and honesty from managers and players, yet the total lack of quality on the media's part, and expectation on the fans' part, decimates the concept.

As you yourself said, the standards of the profession currently simpkly aren't good enough. When you have the likes of Liew resorting to lazy tropes mid-season at a 'reputable' daily, then there's problems IMO...

It's not the same everywhere. I'm always impressed by the tactical questions and more intelligent questioning that Dutch/German journalists employ, and while it's more uncomfortable over here for managers to explain themselves, it's pretty accepted over there.

England seems to be unique in having the most boilerplate post-game questioning of any footballing culture - 'So [manager here], what went right/wrong for you today?', 'did they just want it more than your team?', etc.

Even Italian journalists have more variety - some subscribe to tactical questioning, others buy into an exaggerated celebrity culture and spend their press conferences asking about off-field drama.

What grinds coaches down in England is, as you say, the monotony of the questioning. Same basic questions, same brainless storylines, over and over, for 150-200 press conferences, interviews, etc., every single season.

But, at the same time, it would be interesting to see how Ange handles tactical questioning a la Germany/Italy. 'Why do you insist on inverted fullbacks when your best wide-player, Son Heung-Min, is at his best cutting inside rather than isolated on the wing? Why is there such a gap between the midfield and the forwards?', etc.

 

[Raziel]

Point i made before: probably out of desperation, he's targeted the Europa League, played the reserves in the League and thrown all his principles out the window by parking the bus.

So where does that leave us? A man that deserves another season based on success that involved him abandoning everything he stands for, deploying a system that fans will not find acceptable if deployed over a longer run of games and by doing something he won't get away with again (throwing league games).....there's no obvious route for him to repeat the success. It's not a formula he'll be able to replicate next season.

I mean everything tells me he is staying....so the question is....now what?

I'd argue everything is saying he's done. when you work with big companies, often what the PR doesn't say is as relevant as what it does.

Would have been so easy for the club at any point, in the speeches, in the chairman's letter, to just say "we look forward to building on this success next season with Ange". Back that up with his 3rd season quote, his interviews post cup win where it seems obvious he's building a case for himself, I'd say he knows it as well.

I could be wrong, but feels like a timing thing, let the euphoria of the cup win settle, get new CEO & DoF in, have replacement lined up, make announcement quietly.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'd argue everything is saying he's done. when you work with big companies, often what the PR doesn't say is as relevant as what it does.

Would have been so easy for the club at any point, in the speeches, in the chairman's letter, to just say "we look forward to building on this success next season with Ange". Back that up with his 3rd season quote, his interviews post cup win where it seems obvious he's building a case for himself, I'd say he knows it as well.

I could be wrong, but feels like a timing thing, let the euphoria of the cup win settle, get new CEO & DoF in, have replacement lined up, make announcement quietly.

That implies we're good enough with PR to be that subtle mate. We aren't, we have never been.

Genuinely think Levy isn't sure what to do - think the consensus bet was on Ange losing the final and then a sacking post-Brighton.

Him winning, and then showing masterful political acumen by using the parade to pitch for a 3rd season with a now-adoring fanbase serenading everything he said, has upended this plan, and club communications are merely reflecting this uncertainty.

It's worse in that there is no standout candidate if he goes - if Paratici's rumored picks are indeed true (Farioli or de Zerbi), then any change would be deeply unpopular, with both players and fans.

 

[Raziel]

That implies we're good enough with PR to be that subtle mate. We aren't, we have never been.

Genuinely think Levy isn't sure what to do - think the consensus bet was on Ange losing the final and then a sacking post-Brighton.

Him winning, and then showing masterful political acumen by using the parade to pitch for a 3rd season with a now-adoring fanbase serenading everything he said, has upended this plan, and club communications are merely reflecting this uncertainty.

It's worse in that there is no standout candidate if he goes - if Paratici's rumored picks are indeed true (Farioli or de Zerbi), then any change would be deeply unpopular, with both players and fans.

We'll see

As I said previously, people really overate how much players care/will push back (and we are past the era of a bunch of senior players who have a say), new guy comes in, we win a few games, nobody gets injured and a few players like Romero, Son, Porro, Bentancur, etc get utilized better, they will forget about Ange as quickly as the fans ..

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's not the same everywhere. I'm always impressed by the tactical questions and more intelligent questioning that Dutch/German journalists employ, and while it's more uncomfortable over here for managers to explain themselves, it's pretty accepted over there.

England seems to be unique in having the most boilerplate post-game questioning of any footballing culture - 'So [manager here], what went right/wrong for you today?', 'did they just want it more than your team?', etc.

Even Italian journalists have more variety - some subscribe to tactical questioning, others buy into an exaggerated celebrity culture and spend their press conferences asking about off-field drama.

What grinds coaches down in England is, as you say, the monotony of the questioning. Same basic questions, same brainless storylines, over and over, for 150-200 press conferences, interviews, etc., every single season.

But, at the same time, it would be interesting to see how Ange handles tactical questioning a la Germany/Italy. 'Why do you insist on inverted fullbacks when your best wide-player, Son Heung-Min, is at his best cutting inside rather than isolated on the wing? Why is there such a gap between the midfield and the forwards?', etc.

Its because they are internet forum posters retained on minimum wage, not professional journalists (these barely exist at all now, with most content AI generated)

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's worse in that there is no standout candidate if he goes - if Paratici's rumored picks are indeed true (Farioli or de Zerbi), then any change would be deeply unpopular, with both players and fans.

i dont think any player will mind being injured much less and winning much more

 

[DubaiSpur]

Its because they are internet forum posters retained on minimum wage, not professional journalists (these barely exist at all now, with most content AI generated)

Most of them are. But even the 'professional' ones left ask spectacularly dull/pointless questions - your Barney Ronays and Jonathan Liews, Martin Samuels, Dan Kilpatricks and Alasdair Golds.

They write very long-winded articles after to twist what a manager says into a saga - but in the press conferences, they ask the most banal questions imaginable just like the rest of them.

You can see the difference at the Graun - the sorts of interviews Sid Lowe/Nicky Bandini do in Spain and Italy, for instance, are miles above what the English lot at that same paper get up to.

 

[DubaiSpur]

i dont think any player will mind being injured much less and winning much more

No, but they would mind if they're belittled, randomly frozen out, etc. as de Zerbi likes to do.

Or if they're told to get 10 men behind the ball all season and score from advanced Pulisball, which is what Farioli apparently set up with.

 

[Mikey10]

Whereas he only has great things to say about you....

Which is entirely the point, of course…

 

[DubaiSpur]

His success (and kudos for the achievement) has literally come when we can only play a certain group of players and abandon every principle of his system.

True. But the previous criticism of him was that he only had one, extremely porous tactic.

I don't think it's fair to criticise him for changing it up - it's what we wanted him to do, after all.

It's that flexibility, that willingness to change his long-held principles, that I think augurs well for the upcoming season, if he ends up staying. Ultimately I think that he's being judged as the finished article because of his age and his own bullish self-confidence - when, the reality is that he's still new and learning the ropes at this level, even at 59.

He's never competed in a league as intense as the PL, against the best managers and most expensive squads in world football. Whether he admits it or not, I suspect he's learned a lot about his own beliefs, the art of management and his own players over the course of the last year, and tactical switches like against Frankfurt/Bodo/United are proof of him taking those learnings on board.

I think if he stays, he switches up his coaching staff to bring in some specialists (especially with Mason probably leaving), and we see a more controlled version of his tactics in Season 3, with some reversion to prime Mourinhoball in the big games.

 

[Gazza]

I’m not happy about saying this but he will be here next season … it just seems that way.

I don’t think he warrants tinkling away next season but ten games will be his rope I think …. Otherwise it makes levy look like a fool.

We won’t have gone and got any players of significance as the squad needs a refresh and trim. We don’t buy that sort of player. So any new manager coming in would have to get lucky and hit the ground running.

We could be in for a real horror season if things go the way I think they will. Just the spurs fan in me talking.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think he was more akin to the red tops actually. Most famous for taking the lead role on the Sunday morning show, The Sunday Supplement, which is analogous to Kevin McCarra pushing boundaries in his time. That was an interesting article. From memory, Brian took over from Jimmy Hill and it was only then that the show went up levels.

4 journo's sitting round a table on a Sunday morning drinking coffee and eating croissants chatting about the week that was. Such a different product to MOTD. Patrick Barclay, Oliver Holt, Henry Winter and many other informed guys getting the chance to debate the football topics of the week whilst talking about what the papers were reporting on a Sunday morning. Then it became the podcast as well. Way more interesting than anything Neville, Carragher, Keane and Redknapp have ever said in my mind.

I remember it for sure, for some reason I don't remember him on it (did not see it all the time of course) but I do remember Barclay, Winter, and Holt (I like the first two). It was a good show. I actually like Gary Neville. I think he tries very hard to both get into decent and interesting areas, plus he is never beyond admitting he's wrong. Carragher's just an 'everyman', I enjoy Keane because he plays his role, and Redknapp is naff isn't he!

 

[thfcsteff]

It's not the same everywhere. I'm always impressed by the tactical questions and more intelligent questioning that Dutch/German journalists employ, and while it's more uncomfortable over here for managers to explain themselves, it's pretty accepted over there.

England seems to be unique in having the most boilerplate post-game questioning of any footballing culture - 'So [manager here], what went right/wrong for you today?', 'did they just want it more than your team?', etc.

Even Italian journalists have more variety - some subscribe to tactical questioning, others buy into an exaggerated celebrity culture and spend their press conferences asking about off-field drama.

What grinds coaches down in England is, as you say, the monotony of the questioning. Same basic questions, same brainless storylines, over and over, for 150-200 press conferences, interviews, etc., every single season.

But, at the same time, it would be interesting to see how Ange handles tactical questioning a la Germany/Italy. 'Why do you insist on inverted fullbacks when your best wide-player, Son Heung-Min, is at his best cutting inside rather than isolated on the wing? Why is there such a gap between the midfield and the forwards?', etc.

You make an excellent point, one well worth re-emphasising. I saw Ange in the Frankfurt presser, he got some tough questions but angled with interest in the game not clickbait, and he answered them pretty earnestly and well.

 

[thfcsteff]

Football aside I find the man an arrogant pig

At least you're consistent.
You also called him a 'piece of sh-it' which is frankly a total disgrace.
You don't know the man at all, yet you levelled that at him.
It is very, very hard for me to control myself from saying what I really want to say to you regarding the way you express yourself with regards to him; I will say that I have a little chuckle whenever I read this sort of thing from you, knowing that the fact he WON A MAJOR TROPHY must hurt you given how concrete your stance on his 'inevitable failure' was pre-Final.

 

[thfcsteff]

I dont think people hate him (maybe a couple who have been stupid and insulted him). Like I've said before, I actually like him and wish it had gone better for him

I think that's a fair point to make and one I have to remember to take on board. Critics of him don't necessarily hate him, because that would (indeed) be absurd given we don't really know him and that he doesn't 'edgelord' every 5 minutes like some other villains of management.