Ange departs

[Chrissivad]

We would not have won anything with Frank this year and maybe be 7-8 in the league.
I understand some way we sack Ange and the timing, but I belive he should be given a chance after winning EL.
I see alot say that some of the stars are saying they dont want to play for the club after sacking Ange.. thats not a good sign.

We will never know what Frank would have done with us this year. We might have had less injuries if the reports that our training and over playing players resulted in more injuries l. But it's all guess work.

Just like the players that are 'furious' that we sacked Ange and want to move.

 

[monkeybarry]

We got to the SF of the LC and got knocked out by one of the firm teams in Europe, knocking some big teams along the way.

I was a little harsh on the Lge Cup.

It's actually the perfect exemplar for Ange:
Struggled to beat Coventry, but did
Beat Emirates Marketing Project - great result
4-3 Vs Man U, having been 3-0 up
Swatted away like fly by Liverpool

Yes, we did reach the semis.
Nothing in that run points to reasons for Ange not to go.
You have to take a holistic view:
One great Lge Cup result.
Non existent FA cup campaign
EPL, 11 wins, 5 draws, 22 defeats - that's a 58% LOSE percentage! 29% win percentage.

How anyone can possibly think winning one game in every four keeps him in a job is beyond me.
But losing almost two out of every three.....
..... ironically, the acceptance of that is exactly the kind of Spurs attitude Ange was trying to change.

 

[monkeybarry]

it's a difference he gambled on and won.

Indeed. And I'm glad we did.
I wanted him gone in December. I didn't see the wider plan - thankfully I was wrong.

But it's not a set of results in England that can justify staying on.
A 58% loss percentage is a laughing stock.

 

[billyiddo]

Frank may be the right choice, I hope is, but the idea that he is and is a definite upgrade or that he can do better than any of our recent managers is not backed up with data or logic.

He has a club with the 2nd lowest wage bill in the league consistently outperforming it's level. There's definite logic for him doing well here based on having proven himself able to do that. Having us just at our level has us 5th-6th, massively outperforming that and well you you can fill in the blanks

 

[Surfless]

He has a club with the 2nd lowest wage bill.innthe league consistently outperforming it's level. There's definite logic for him doing well here.

If the objective is to be in the top 4-6 places maybe. But have we not just removed a guy who has instilled a true will to win a group of players ? I don't want fourth to sixth, I want trophies and Ange showed us how to do that.

 

[DubSpur]

Whist i agree with the outcome they way in which the club has handled this is abhorrent. If it was the overall performance that was the issue, then why didn't you sack him weeks/months ago!?

The club used him. Then threw him out like a used condom.

The board are utter clams for the way they have done this. Dispicable.

I hope we get relegated

The club payed him really well for doing the job he was contracted to do. They allowed him to continue in his job and have the greatest night of his career (and a great night for the club which is their priority) even though most other clubs would've sacked him. He's getting a reported 4m payoff. If that's getting used then I'm up for getting used any time.

 

[billyiddo]

If the objective is to be in the top 4-6 places maybe. But have we not just removed a guy who has instilled a true will to win a group of players ? I don't want fourth to sixth, I want trophies and Ange showed us how to do that.

What Ange showed was that he was capable of winning the EL while sacrificing the PL. If you are PL top 6 club you're going to be the favourite for the EL in it's current format - it's a level below the PL in terms of competitiveness and sorry it is not an indicator that you can do anything else in England.

 

[Surfless]

I think people will be surprised. I think any competent manager will have this squad top 4 almost instantly

Yes but we have previously established you hate Ange with a passion, which is hardly a ringing endorsement for pragmatism is it. Top 4 while trying to compete in the champions league is hard and, most worrying, with the managers we are being linked to, not something any of them have had to juggle before.

 

[harr1984]

He has a club with the 2nd lowest wage bill in the league consistently outperforming it's level. There's definite logic for him doing well here based on having proven himself able to do that. Having us just at our level has us 5th-6th, massively outperforming that and well you you can fill in the blanks

Wage bill is not reflective of talent, Brentford have exceptional recruitment - like Brighton it is that rather than the manager that is the X factor. Just seen Mbuemo is on 50k per week there, that does not reflect the quality....

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I think you are being unfair. There is no manager with the injuries last season and competing on multiple fronts that will get top 4. Also it seems we are different, I will take a trophy over top 4. You also seem to be overestimating the squad based on what you see now.

On injuries, seems like the medical and sports science department have squarely pointed the finger at Ange's methods as the primary cause:
1) too many sprints in training
2) players pushed over recommended playing limits when recovering from injuries
Ange's response when challenged by the departments was allegedly "the players have to endure to adapt".

And so I think there is a big argument to say that many other coaches wouldn't have had the injuries we have had over the last two seasons, particularly concentrated in central defence both seasons (where the high line, lack of support from an anchor and full backs particularly expose them to sprinting forwards and backwards multiple times in a match)

 

[DubSpur]

I agree. Replacing personnel is not blowing a structure up.
Replacing a manager, a high ranking board member, losing another high ranking board member, and potentially bringing back a sporting director who works in virtually the opposite way to the current one, well, that's a little different than just 'replacing personnel' isn't it? I mean, do we as a football club actually know who we are and what we want?

Replacing a manager is a normal part of football. It happens on average around every 18 months, not a big deal, and nothing to do with the structure. A board member is retiring, people retire, get over it. Her responibilities are being shifted and replacements in place.

We're brining back the sporting director that was wanted all along. If it wasn't for his ban he would never have left. He was also the one who started the restructuring of the football side of things, especially the scouting. So no, he won't be working in a way that is majorly different to the current football director. The difference is he has way more contacts.

To be honest it sounds more like you don't know who we are and are butt hurt over Ange going and aren't willing to accept it. Ironic since in the last couple of days you asked me would I accept it if Ange was kept.

 

[billyiddo]

Wage bill is not reflective of talent, Brentford have exceptional recruitment - like Brighton it is that rather than the manager that is the X factor. Just seen Mbuemo is on 50k per week there, that does not reflect the quality....

Resources reflecting your standing most definitely is a thing and im not going waste my time arguing otherwise.

Mbuemo was signed having only played 70 senior games at a lower level in France - he has been developed by Frank at Brentford to the player he is today. A key part of being able to punch above your weight is developing players and providing a system in which they can flourish.

 

[Surfless]

Depends how it goes with Frank. If he sinks then we will be made fun of. If he swims then it will look like the correct decision. Only time will tell. Personally, although I haven't watched much of Brentford, the one thing I'd say if it is Frank is that everyone on here seems to be saying he's more of a Nuno "safety first" defensive manager. So where does that fit in the strategy that was deployed in hiring Ange in the first ace and reiterated in the statement in firing him (i.e. the desire to return to attacking, front foot football)?

Frank's approach is dynamic, and in game he responds to the direction of travel, based on the score and the opposition tactics. Compared to the pretty intransient "it's who we are" football of season 1, it should be an improvement and we should in theory win more games from winning positions.

My issue is that he's not a guy who has managed a team that's got Europe and domestic competition to handle. Which is explicitly stated as being a requirement of the board in Ange's sacking statement.

We need someone who plays expansive football with the ability to change a game to meet the immediate demands. I'm pro Ange but recognise that EL aside this season, as well as losing our identity (Ange ball) we also rarely looked capable of either closing out a game or coming from behind.

I put that down to squad injuries and focus rather than the ability of the manager, but the board has specifically cited it as a requirement and are supposedly counting someone who has never been able to demonstrate he can do that.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

He didn't agree with some of the fans' approach. However if there is one manager who stood up for Spurs consistently and at a level spoke my mind - it was Ange. He pointed out the inconsistencies in reporting. He was ridiculed by some. I would rather back such a manager who does that than smiling with idiots who were attempting to stick a knife in the club's back.

Once more, fvck the English media.

Completely agree, we can only hope we get so lucky in that respect with the next manager.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Resources reflecting your standing most definitely is a thing and im not going waste my time arguing otherwise

Yeah the most significant factor correlated to league finish in any analysis of PL standings over several seasons is wage bill. If you have a competent set up you will finish in order of wage bill 7/10 at least. Exceptional coaching, recruitment and tactics can push you a few places higher but its not a panacea to resource.

 

[harr1984]

Resources reflecting your standing most definitely is a thing and im not going waste my time arguing otherwise

I'm not trying to put down Frank, I think he is a decent coach and a good human being. I just don't think he was enough of a 'sure bet' (I know there's no such thing with managers) to bin off the guy who's just won us a European trophy for. And I don't think he's the guy to take on and steer this basket case of a club to some form of glory days. But good luck to him....

 

[DeanoAustin]

If you’ve never been Levy out before, switching to that over what is clearly a very difficult decision is a tad strange. I’ve wanted Ange gone for a year or more, but I would have largely understood the rationale to keep him should that have been the choice.

And that’s the point here. People saying that it’s an idiotic decision or has no logic behind it have their heads in the sand as much as people who would have said “keeping him was a stupid decision. He finished 17th FFS. Undoubtedly should have been sacked.”

It’s a very, very difficult situation where, as the decision maker, you’re gonna get criticism either way.

Anyone who views this in the above extremes clearly isn’t trying hard enough to see the whole situation for what it is.

 

[lurker of old]

But have we not just removed a guy who has instilled a true will to win a group of players ?
No, the players have proved again and again that losing is ok if it's the Ange way.

 

[DubSpur]

Yeah. Literally the same amount of points during this 'horrendous' period - whilst they get knocked out of cups early, no Europe so we play over half a seasons games more than them, 'master tactician' Frank gets done twice by 'no tactics' Ange, never won a tournament in his life vs the guy who has won everywhere.

I consistently said that I'm ok with Levy sacking Ange if it is for someone who we can comfortably say is better, otherwise I was ok with Ange being given the opportunity to go again. Frank is not that guy and just another hopeful stab in the dark that we've done many times before....

I'm not excited by Frank, but you have to have some context when comparing what Frank has done to Ange. Frank has Brentford well above where expected, Ange has us well below where we are expected. In the time that Ange has been here he's spent over 3 times what Frank has.

 

[lurker of old]

The medical and conditioning team have apportioned blame for the injuries on the coaching team

I haven't seen this, is there a source? We all knew Ange's kamikaze defending was partly to blame but if the Medical dept had data to prove that, it must have helped make the Board's mind up.