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A Word for the Defence

Yes, we remember what happened. And if he'd 'got that out of the way early on' the squad would've disrespected Villas Boas for benching Friedel immediately, those 'mistakes' would've been happening whilst the likes of you were telling everyone what an immense sack of brick we currently were, and you'd further have been banging on about Villas Boas showing he'd 'learnt nothing from his Chelski days'...

This is the problem I have with "the likes of you". You are angered at me for saying we are brick, as if im suppose to close my eyes to it because some people love AVB and dont want it to be true. Im sorry, but if we are playing brick give me 1 good reason why I cant come on here and give my opinion ? You are part of a team that runs this forum, why on earth would you not want honest debate. I have a big problem with the "likes of you" because you are not interested in discussing what is really happening, and are more concerned with driving people away that dont share the need to go along with your vision of what you want to be true.

For the record, I didnt want us to be brick, IT WASNT MY FAULT !! I just said what was happening at the time.
 
You are bringing him up.
Without even tenuous relevance to the thread.
Stop bringing up old topics in threads where they have no relevance.
Stop being a troll.
Accept that some people do not agree with you.
And move on.

What a pathetic post. Accuse me of being a troll because I gave an opinion with reasons behind it. Accept that some people do not agree... ok lets have no one reply to anyone shall we ? Why are you replying to me, why have you not accepted I dont agree with you and moved on ? This seems a common problem with mods, if they dont agree with the opinion then the poster is accused of all sorts and the rule book is brought out, whereas its just the other side of the debate. Ill report your post and get another PM apology shall I ? :) Is it not possible in your mind that I am doing exactly the same as you and spursalot are - giving their opinion and responding to points ?

The relevance is there, I have explained it, it makes perfect sense - you are choosing to ignore it as you do when it becomes too difficult to respond to. As already explained, the point is about managers mistakes costing us rather than Harry. I was replying to you, if the Lloris debate is not welcome here, it was you I replied to, so dont blame me for going off topic.
 
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Here lies the difference in how we are watching what AVB is doing, both with the side and the defence.
I see him as someone who
a) knows much more about our club and the pressures than we do and so
b) is working accordingly over the course of the season to get things right until
c) we are working exactly as he wants us to.

He will make mistakes. He has made mistake. But the sum total of these doesn't get close to the fine, fine work he's done, especially when measured against the pressure.
How he has handled the defence has been excellent. He has identified exactly what's needed right now and is going with it. The experience and leadership of Dawson, resting Caulker...

I admit to being a fan of his. I wanted him here from May 13th onwards. I felt he was the right man. And I absolutely still believe he is, with more conviction than ever.
One or two mistakes along the way will not have me jumping up and down screaming or getting upset.
I will wait until the end of the season before giving him a full evaluation.

But in the old Chelsea thread when he was in charge there, you mocked him and said you thought he was brick.

And once again, Im glad you have found the correct way to assess a manager, taking the mistakes and putting them in context among everything he does. That is exactly the right way to do it... :-# ill stop there.

And just incase you STILL think im anti AVB... just to clarify...I STILL think he is a great person, i STILL think not doing too badly (we could do with being less boring though), and i STILL think we will get 4th. Ive said this for a good couple of months now. Read and understand. But it doesnt mean im going to go OTT about him or excuse him if a fudge up is made (like a cup loss to championship teams).

Anyway, Ive made enough posts in here so I wont check back on the thread as it can only get even more repetitive. Theres always PM if someone really wants me to see the latest dumb Lloris on the bench excuse.
 
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I think the midfield are tracking back and following runners more, i remember under Arry we were so open to counter attacks. Now we are more compact, some may say playing negative.

Games ebb and flow, we need to recognise when to recognise how expend and conserve energy.

Daws and Vert are a good cd partnership, perhaps not the best. Walker for me, as many point out, relies on his pace to get himself out of trouble, he doesn't have a ''natural' competition. Interesting to see Gallas come on to replace him, did we then revert to a back 3 with the CDs? Kaboul and verts would be interesting, but I prefer Daws with kaboul. One day soon Verts will be a very good libero.

Brad v Lloris - Brad was doing a good job, perhaps AVB still had a comfort factor with him before Lloris played in the cup games. Then AVB saw what Lloris could do, and gotten a taste of the EPL and put him in permanently. He is the future.

Benny is Benny, Naughton has shown to be a good understudy. I think we'll need Naughton to do both wings though, it could easily happen.
 
Sorry, can't buy this...

We were horrible at the back yesterday against an average team. In the first half, Long should have scored two and Daws and Verts couldn;t live with Lukaku. Above all, the only player who can genuinely track back with pace is Walker - watching the centre halfs trying to regain ground on a baggies break was painful to the system
I am a big fan of Daws and Verts but that was a bad day at the office for both against the Baggies and I think Verts was worse than Caulker against Leeds.

But still 6 clean sheets in last 11 EPL
 
Bad day at the office, huh? I only saw the marks for technical merit - 1-0 score, 3 pts. awarded. Didn't see the judges marks for style and artistry.

A win Saturday means we earn 22 out of 30 points over that 10-game span. The only results that irked me out of that run were the 0-0 draws at QPR and home to Stoke. We had chances to win both, but hardly the fault of the defenders. Otherwise, I'm pleased with the results and content with the play of a patchwork back four.

I hope we'll be able to see Kaboul and Vertonghen pair up in the middle soon. With Walker and BAE, that's a fab back line. Like to see Caulker and Naughton continue to develop, but we've got depth in defence and maybe a resource to sell on come summer.
 
Do you genuinely believe that that this was a likely scenario? Not just a little bit hyperbole? I mean...Julio Cesar could be playing so much better now if only QPR had played Rob Green for the first few months and bedded him in slowly. And I know Van Der Sar, Cech, Reina etc would never have managed to have the careers in England that they've had without spending some quality time on the bench, learning about English culture first. Oh wait. This whole idea about letting him bed in slowly in case he made a mistake and had his confidence destroyed by the media is completely contradictory anyway, the fact that he was out of the side, with Deschamps and co all making noises about how badly this was being managed actually attracted EVEN MORE attention to the situation and put even more pressure on him to perform when he did finally get his chance in the side. Thankfully, Lloris is a world class goalkeeper that has played in big Champions League games and has captained his country at a major international tournament and thrives under pressure.

Friedel is an excellent goalkeeper, one of the best I've seen at Tottenham. But Lloris is better in almost every way - better reactions, quicker off his line, better with the ball at his feet, better distribution, and of course, far more suited to the high line system that AVB has implemented here. I don't think AVB was wrong not to bring Lloris in immediately. Friedel had been our best player over the first 3 games and deserved to keep his place in the side. But after Lloris got our first clean sheet of the season in the Villa game, that should have been that. I think Friedel is a big personality in the dressing room though and AVB, with what happened at Chelsea in mind, didn't want to rock the boat. But then after a while Lloris was getting frustrated and might have caused an upset in the dressing room himself. His first game as first choice was the epitome of throwing him in at the deep end, the derby. Not exactly the most logical thing to do.

Whatever the outcome, you would have said AVB had handled this situation masterfully. Lloris plays well - "ya see, it was because AVB let him blend in slowly". Lloris fudges up - "ya see, he's not ready yet, AVB was right to stick with Friedel". If he'd dropped Friedel from the beginning and Lloris had played well - "ya see, top managers make difficult decisions and he's been rewarded here". If he'd dropped Friedel and Lloris was a bit dodgy - "something about context, can't you see what he's trying to do long term etc..."

The stats don't lie - we have conceded 16 goals in 10 games with Friedel and only 13 goals in 15 games with Lloris. If you take out the game at the Emirates it's 8 in 14 with Lloris. That's an enormous difference. Yes, I know there are other factors, which I'll talk about in a moment, but we are now playing our best keeper, the one most suited to our system, and we are seeing the benefits of it.

What irritated me even more earlier in the season though was AVB's persistence with Gallas despite several shocking performances. Gallas is supposed to be the experienced leader, yet he was as guilty as anyone of panicking and hoofing the ball when not under any pressure, such a stark contrast from Ledley. Not only that, he was being asked to play a high line and a high pressing game. 35 year olds are generally not suited to these kind of tactics, and he often could not keep up with things. As Dawson has won his place back in the side, things have improved a lot, because while he's not the fastest defender around, he is more mobile than Gallas and doesn't tire as much towards the end of games after pressing for such a long time.

Something I absolutely cannot stand a manager doing is picking players who clearly aren't suited to the system they want to play - Graham having us hoofing high balls up to the 5ft tall Rebrov, Hoddle playing an open 3-5-2 formation with no pace or defensive midfielder in the side...now that we are actually playing the right personnel in the right formation we are seeing results. AVB is currently in my good books because he is playing the correct players in the correct formation and getting results. But if we miss out on Champions League football by one point like we did last year, I'll have to wonder...what if Lloris had been there with his quicker reactions to Cahill's opening goal in the Chelsea game, or Dzeko's winner at the Etihad? What if Dawson had been there to head away the corner Wigan scored from, or had stayed closer to Mata for Chelsea's equaliser?

Moving on, I am very happy with our defensive options. I haven't been to impressed by Walker or Assou-Ekotto's attacking play recently and I think full-back is the next priority area for us to strengthen after the striker situation, but we generally look quite solid at the moment. I'm struggling to think of another team with better centre-back options than us, especially when the best one of all gets fit soon. Unfortunately we no longer have Sandro to protect the defence, but Parker is a good backup and I am hoping that Holtby's influence will also help us to keep the ball better and take pressure off of our defence.

=D> Brilliant post.

I think to be fair to AVB he has shown he is willing to change things around which I really respect. I am starting to really like the guy. I think he kept on with Friedel not to allow lloris to acclimitise but because like you said he didn't feel right dropping a player with a big personality who was playing well. Of course we may never know the real reason.
 
^^ you could probably argue just the same that no matter how it played out SHUIYA would have said AVB got it wrong

also you gotta love how the posters that wrote him off at the beginning of the season are trying to back track by saying things like "oh now he's changed it to how i wanted us to play/Redknapp had us playing he's naturally doing a better job"
 
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^^ you could probably argue just the same that no matter how it played out SHUIYA would have said AVB got it wrong

also you gotta love how the posters that wrote him off at the beginning of the season are trying to back track by saying things like "oh now he's changed it to how i wanted us to play/Redknapp had us playing he's naturally doing a better job"

TBF most of the posters who were "against" AVB at the beginning felt he was making some major mistakes. I for one could not believe the decision to sell Dawson. I did feel he kept Lloris out for too long to the detriment of the team, only to then, on the face of it, bring him into the PL team on a completely random basis, I mean Friedel wasn't injured nor had a poor game previously. Still I trust AVB must have seen something.

Taking this thread away from the usual pro and less pro AVB discussions I am amazed that posters want to drop Dawson and bring in that defensive GHod Kaboul who has had all of one consistent season. Are they not missing the point? The defence have been good with Dawson IN IT!
 
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TBF most of the posters who were "against" AVB at the beginning felt he was making some major mistakes. I for one could not believe the decision to sell Dawson. I did feel he kept Lloris out for too long to the detriment of the team, only to then, on the face of it, bring him into the PL team on a completely random basis, I mean Friedel wasn't injured nor had a poor game previously. Still I trust AVB must have seen something.

Taking this thread away from the usual pro and less pro AVB discussions I am amazed that posters want to drop Dawson and bring in that defensive GHod Kaboul who has had all of one consistent season. Are they not missing the point? The defence have been good with Dawson IN IT!

But you are a reasonable, rational and discursive poster who is happy to engage in discussion rather than 'right and wrong' or shouting people down, or even trying to claim you knew all along.

With regards to Daws, I felt in the summer he's be off, as I could not see how he would fit the system. Daws is our club captain, spokesperson and UA 'ambassador' so-to-speak. That he chose to turn down the move to QPR, chose to knuckle down and prove AVB wrong AND kept his mouth shut showed me a deeper side of the man, one which has really catapulted him into a new level of respect for me. i always knew he was a good chap, I did not know he was this good and this dedicated. A proper old-school throwback to the Perryman-era of footballer, and not only that, he HAS developed as a player and he HAS proved me wrong. Superb. A winning proposition. That the manager has allowed himself to be proven wrong, and has subsequently reacted, shows me he has great man-management skills. Daws certainly speaks well of him.

As for Lloris, we all have our opinions. I wanted him straight in simply because I felt Brad was unable to stop specific shots/play to his best with a high-line/was getting very old. But we felt AVB would hold him back. Was it for footballing reasons or dressing room reasons? WHo knows, but I'd argue the two blend into each other these days.
He has worked very very hard to get the squad vibe and win their trust; I suspect his handling of Brad, Hugo and Daws have been absolutely vital in that. And ultimately, we have a defence which is getting better and better.

I agree, right now, Daws has to be there. He is not perfect but he is whole, real, honest, earnest, a leader and our captain. It is the right thing to do.
 
There are many good reasons for wishing Kaboul to return promptly, not all of them necessarily negative toward Dawson. If Kaboul returns to decent fitness this season, it would be reasonable to assume he'd start at CB. He'd need less mobility to play there. But he has shown himself to be a capable RB and, when healthy, it would be good to see him spend a game out there with Dawson and Verts at the CB spots. This might give Walker a little kick up the pants to get his game elevated or ride the bench.

We could wind up with a nicely versatile defensive group involving Caulker, Dawson, Kaboul and Vertonghen at CB, Naughton and BAE at LB, and Walker and possibly Kaboul or even Naughton at RB. Good size all around and a few pacey, playmaking players for all positions.

On paper, it's a fantastic set up. Just needs to get healthy and on the same page. Long term performances like the past nine matches will become more routine.
 
We've conceded more goals than Man C, Chelsea or Swansea, same number as Arsenal. 4 more than we'd conceded after 25 games last season.
 
I think the reason that we are improving defensively has more to do with the way that our opponents play, than how we play ourselves.

A lot of sides, most notably including Stoke and Swansea, come play us with the intention not to lose. The opposition put ten men behind the ball and barely look to surge forwards. That way, we should dominate possession and will naturally give away less goals as the ball will be allowed in areas that won't hurt us defensively. So it's not really that impressive that we pass through those games keeping clean sheets.

We look too under pressure in games where teams DO attack us. We seem to allow players in to areas that can hurt us, we give away cheap free kicks and Lloris has bailed us out a number of times too, perhaps to be expected as a goalkeeper will save the team from time to time.

When we start dealing with opposition attacks regularly before they get in and around the penalty area, I will then say we are improving defensively.
 
We've conceded more goals than Man C, Chelsea or Swansea, same number as Arsenal. 4 more than we'd conceded after 25 games last season.

The last nine Premier League matches played...

P0167_zps9b7b563e.png
 
Proves to me that our attack is weak rather than proving the defence is strong. Only 13 goals scored in 9 games against the likes of Reading, QPR, Norwich, Swansea, Stoke..not really good enough!
 
Proves to me that our attack is weak rather than proving the defence is strong. Only 13 goals scored in 9 games against the likes of Reading, QPR, Norwich, Swansea, Stoke..not really good enough!

The problem with our attack is that they're simply not putting enough chances which come their way into the back of the net.

In fact, the 310 goalscoring opportunities Spurs have had so far this season is a Premier League record (Emirates Marketing Project are next highest with 300) but we've only converted 42 of them into goals for a rate of 13.5% - only Norwich & QPR have worse conversion rates than Spurs...

Premier League Results, League Table, Goal Statistics & Opportunities for Season 2012-13
 
Wow Saudi Sportswashing Machine conceded 23 in last 9 games, only Villa are worse!
 
Do you know how many of those chances are inside, and how many outside, of the penalty box? Seems like we miss 2 types of players; someone who can spot, and play the incisive pass and a top striker who possesses good movement and finishing. Feels like we're always shooting from distance, which I've encouraged in the past but the balance of shots between inside/outside the area needs to be right.

If we continually shoot from outside the penalty box then it's only natural that our conversion rate will be low.

Hopefully Holtby can be the passer, if so, we need ourselves that striker still.
 
^^ you could probably argue just the same that no matter how it played out SHUIYA would have said AVB got it wrong

also you gotta love how the posters that wrote him off at the beginning of the season are trying to back track by saying things like "oh now he's changed it to how i wanted us to play/Redknapp had us playing he's naturally doing a better job"

Nope, I have never held back from giving AVB praise when deserved. I have talked about the effectiveness of the high line and pressing game in this thread, and after games where he's got things right I've been happy to write things like:

After the Swansea game said:
AVB - 9 - Hats off to the guy, excellent work from him today. Vertonghen had spoke earlier in the week about not feeling he was agile enough to accurately deal with the fastest, trickiest wingers of the game at full-back, so the decision to move him into the middle and play Naughton at LB was a very good one. The substitutions were correct, and effective, especially the decision to have Townsend on the right wing which I felt worked particularly well. Crucially, he also resisted the temptation to bring on Parker too early, as we had been bossing the game and he has made the mistake far too many times this season of letting go of the initiative by bringing on defensive players too early to protect a narrow lead. Only thing I'd have changed today were that I didn't feel Caulker deserved to be dropped but Gallas did well. Most importantly, this was an organised team performance from a team obviously hungry to prove a point after the Everton game - the team kept focused, composed and didn't let their heads drop despite Swansea defending extremely well. Well done Andre.

The difference between me and posters like you and Steff are that, when AVB does something wrong, I say he's done something wrong, when he does something right, I say he's done something right and when he gets the basics correct then I don't feel the need to talk about them. Whereas when he does something right or even does something basic that you'd expect, you guys toss all over it, but when he does something wrong you close your eyes, put your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalalalalala it's not happening".
 
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