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A Word for the Defence

Thanks for the stats in the OP. Was hoping to skive off and have a dig later today. I'm annoyed we never get to read this stuff in the mainstream media. The same collective group who were trying to shred AVB and Spurs at the start of the season, trying to manufacture a goalie crisis.

We've had as bad a spell of injuries to key players as any top side and have managed to successfully adapt and give some younger talent a chance to accelerate their development. Very encouraged by what I've seen.
 
Sorry, can't buy this...

We were horrible at the back yesterday against an average team. In the first half, Long should have scored two and Daws and Verts couldn;t live with Lukaku. Above all, the only player who can genuinely track back with pace is Walker - watching the centre halfs trying to regain ground on a baggies break was painful to the system

I think horrible is a bit extreme. We are still not the finished article, but Lukaku is tough for any defender to deal with and Long can also be a handful. Be honest, how many saves did Lloris have to make? How many clear cut chances did they create? No more than a couple. The home team will always create one or two chances.

I do believe Lloris has a lot to do with our improved defensive record, he bails the defence out with his sweeper keeper play. As much as I like Friedel, it must give the defence so much confidence with Lloris behind them. Long may it continue, we may well have to settle for 1-0 wins if Defoe's injury is worse than expected.

I guarantee this all goes out the window when we play Arsenal as both teams will forget how to defend for 90 minutes. Can see plenty of goals in that game.
 
Indeed Malteser, WBA had the better chances and were waltzing past our back line before they went down to ten men
 
I think a lot of this is down to Lloris being awesome in the sweeper keeper role

Totally. Shame he wasnt playing when the defense looked all over the place at the start of the season in easy games vs Norwich and West brom. Might cost us CL football that.

Funnily enough, the defense was brick vs Leeds, when he wasnt playing.
 
I'd like to see Gallas back in place of Dawson. Dawson might be good at a lot of things, but organizing the back 4 is not one of them and he gets caught ball watching so many times. To me it's no coincidence that a lot of the chances we give away are mistakes by Walker/Dawson.
 
I'd like to see Gallas back in place of Dawson. Dawson might be good at a lot of things, but organizing the back 4 is not one of them and he gets caught ball watching so many times. To me it's no coincidence that a lot of the chances we give away are mistakes by Walker/Dawson.

I wouldn't mind that either. I also think that Vertonghen looks a lot better alongside Gallas than he does alongside Dawson.

Will be very interesting to see what he does when Kaboul returns and how our back 4 will perform then.
 
We have been over this before, so you're right that it's not worth going into again because we'll never know what would have happened if Hugo had come in. Perhaps he might have crumbled under the pressure of adjusting to a new culture too quickly, made a few mistakes and developed a reputation in the media. Or maybe his faster reflexes and being quicker off his line might have prevented goals in the Chelsea, Wigan and City games and we'd be in third place now. We'll never know.

What I do know is that, when AVB started doing what some of us had been screaming for him to do for ages, we started seeing the results we were hoping for. I don't think that's a co-incidence.



:rolleyes: yes, you got me, I am actually Harry Redknapp and I am so bitter about being sacked I am looking to defame AVB. Next time you leave your house Joe and Kevin will put a bag over your head and bundle you into the back of a van so I can grind you into mincemeat and feed you to Rosie.

Right...

1) I'll tell you what 'would have happened'...Hugo might've made a mistake, and Hugo would've been fudging pilloried by a slew of 'experts' screaming that the manager doesn't know what he's doing, etc, etc, Hugo might've made another mistake and then wheee-karaumba, kicking season, thus we end up with a devastated talent.

2) Mate. I trust AVB's daily immersion/knowledge in our club and what it needs more than yours.

In a nutshell. He gave Lloris a breaking in period, he gave Brad the sort of respect that helps both player and dressing room unite, we now have a squad that is absolutely together and an experienced back-up keeper/potential future coach who's knowledge, talent and experience you rarely find.

AVB has executed a masterful situation here.
 
I think horrible is a bit extreme. We are still not the finished article, but Lukaku is tough for any defender to deal with and Long can also be a handful. Be honest, how many saves did Lloris have to make? How many clear cut chances did they create? No more than a couple. The home team will always create one or two chances.

I do believe Lloris has a lot to do with our improved defensive record, he bails the defence out with his sweeper keeper play. As much as I like Friedel, it must give the defence so much confidence with Lloris behind them. Long may it continue, we may well have to settle for 1-0 wins if Defoe's injury is worse than expected.

I guarantee this all goes out the window when we play Arsenal as both teams will forget how to defend for 90 minutes. Can see plenty of goals in that game.

It's going to be a fantastic match.
I genuinely, genuinely believe we'd have won there earlier this season with 11 men, thus (err) we must keep 11 men on the pitch!
 
I'd like to see Gallas back in place of Dawson. Dawson might be good at a lot of things, but organizing the back 4 is not one of them and he gets caught ball watching so many times. To me it's no coincidence that a lot of the chances we give away are mistakes by Walker/Dawson.

It's an interesting topic, because to me, it absolutely looks like AVB has decided that right now, in the Prem anyway, with Sandro out he wants some big, strong experience out there. I get the impression Daws is one of our most popular members of the dressing room (he is, in fact, a lovely chap, one of the most agenda-less footballers you could wish for) and I also suspect that his determination to work hard, prove AVB wrong and subsequent reinstatement has been a major, major part of the squad spirit this season as well as trust with the manager. It's significant to me that AVB has been resting Caulker/taking him out of the firing line...
 
Right...

1) I'll tell you what 'would have happened'...Hugo might've made a mistake, and Hugo would've been fudging pilloried by a slew of 'experts' screaming that the manager doesn't know what he's doing, etc, etc, Hugo might've made another mistake and then wheee-karaumba, kicking season, thus we end up with a devastated talent.

2) Mate. I trust AVB's daily immersion/knowledge in our club and what it needs more than yours.

In a nutshell. He gave Lloris a breaking in period, he gave Brad the sort of respect that helps both player and dressing room unite, we now have a squad that is absolutely together and an experienced back-up keeper/potential future coach who's knowledge, talent and experience you rarely find.

AVB has executed a masterful situation here.

:lol: LLoris is not a kid, he has played more CL games than any of our players and played a world cup... A devastated talent? No, its points we would have won to play CL football. Because top clubs play their top players. And thats how you win football games. Even in the Fa cup.
 
It's an interesting topic, because to me, it absolutely looks like AVB has decided that right now, in the Prem anyway, with Sandro out he wants some big, strong experience out there. I get the impression Daws is one of our most popular members of the dressing room (he is, in fact, a lovely chap, one of the most agenda-less footballers you could wish for) and I also suspect that his determination to work hard, prove AVB wrong and subsequent reinstatement has been a major, major part of the squad spirit this season as well as trust with the manager. It's significant to me that AVB has been resting Caulker/taking him out of the firing line...

I agree with all of this.

I think that it is an excellent decision to give Caulker a bit of a break. It is one of the things that Ferguson is so good at when bringing through a new player. Play them, show faith in them, let them gain experience and then rest them. I would imagine that we are working with him a lot on the strengths and weaknesses that he has shown this season and helping him come back even stronger when he is back in the team.
 
Sorry, can't buy this...

We were horrible at the back yesterday against an average team. In the first half, Long should have scored two and Daws and Verts couldn;t live with Lukaku. Above all, the only player who can genuinely track back with pace is Walker - watching the centre halfs trying to regain ground on a baggies break was painful to the system


He may be the only one who can get back with his pace but most of our problems are caused by him being caught out in bad defensive positions and his lack of ability

The amount of times this one player is caught out of position in a game is frightening and don't start me on his distribution of the ball
 
It's funny that individually, none of our back four have been all that great in form - Walker's been awful all season, Dawson has his critics, BAE still looks rusty to say the least while Naughton's no LB, and even Verts has been overly casual with his defending at times imo. I think the improved defensive workrate of the midfielders in front of them - Sandro is more of a DM than Parker, Dembele is much more defensively capable than Modric, and Lennon and Bale have both upped their pressing - has really helped, and I suspect having Holtby in can only improve our pressing game while Ade will help us keep possession more than Dempsey or Defoe. Best of all has probably been Lloris though, whose reading of the game is so good that he prevents chances before they become dangerous.

My worry is that we'll burn out with so much pressing and so much usage of Bale, and I think that's why we appear so quick to start settling down and holding back our energy after going up 1-0. That understandably makes the fans nervous and naturally I'd much rather see us go 2 or 3 up before the containment policy kicks in, but in terms of the long view being "controlled and restrained" rather than eager for blood may have its advantages for a thin squad.

Yeah. Again AVB is smart with this.

We only intensely press for short bursts. It's the reason we sometimes get accused of only really turning up for half a match. We use it as an overdrive gear when we really want to be most competitive.

We are also getting much better at 'resting with the ball'. Look how we closed out the last 10 minutes against West Brom. Even our hardest pressers only had to run for 80 minutes of the match.
 
Interesing posts on our pressing, only turning up for half a match and holding back our energy when going 1-0 up.

I'd be interested to hear from Gutter Boy, Syfarer and others about how we compare to Arsenal on these issues. Arsenal seem to continually go for the jugular in terms of their wins, i.e. their goal difference is usually much better than ours when we are at similar places in the table, like right now. When going a goal up Arsenal seem much less interested (capable?) of just conserving energy and 'settling down' but seem more eager to want more blood and score more and more goals.
Are they better at creating lots of good chances?
Are they just blessed with better finishers?
Or are they simply flat-track bullies?

If we end up with similar points you would expect them to have a better goal difference at the current rate (which I have to admit I have nightmares about..)
 
:lol: LLoris is not a kid, he has played more CL games than any of our players and played a world cup... A devastated talent? No, its points we would have won to play CL football. Because top clubs play their top players. And thats how you win football games. Even in the Fa cup.


Yup brilliant. Play a keeper who doesn't know the language and doesn't know his team mates. It's not like goalkeepers need to communicate. Nope. It's just not required.

Things that LLoris himself has said were required.

It's points that would have suffered.
 
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Right...

1) I'll tell you what 'would have happened'...Hugo might've made a mistake, and Hugo would've been fudging pilloried by a slew of 'experts' screaming that the manager doesn't know what he's doing, etc, etc, Hugo might've made another mistake and then wheee-karaumba, kicking season, thus we end up with a devastated talent.

2) Mate. I trust AVB's daily immersion/knowledge in our club and what it needs more than yours.

In a nutshell. He gave Lloris a breaking in period, he gave Brad the sort of respect that helps both player and dressing room unite, we now have a squad that is absolutely together and an experienced back-up keeper/potential future coach who's knowledge, talent and experience you rarely find.

AVB has executed a masterful situation here.

Do you genuinely believe that that this was a likely scenario? Not just a little bit hyperbole? I mean...Julio Cesar could be playing so much better now if only QPR had played Rob Green for the first few months and bedded him in slowly. And I know Van Der Sar, Cech, Reina etc would never have managed to have the careers in England that they've had without spending some quality time on the bench, learning about English culture first. Oh wait. This whole idea about letting him bed in slowly in case he made a mistake and had his confidence destroyed by the media is completely contradictory anyway, the fact that he was out of the side, with Deschamps and co all making noises about how badly this was being managed actually attracted EVEN MORE attention to the situation and put even more pressure on him to perform when he did finally get his chance in the side. Thankfully, Lloris is a world class goalkeeper that has played in big Champions League games and has captained his country at a major international tournament and thrives under pressure.

Friedel is an excellent goalkeeper, one of the best I've seen at Tottenham. But Lloris is better in almost every way - better reactions, quicker off his line, better with the ball at his feet, better distribution, and of course, far more suited to the high line system that AVB has implemented here. I don't think AVB was wrong not to bring Lloris in immediately. Friedel had been our best player over the first 3 games and deserved to keep his place in the side. But after Lloris got our first clean sheet of the season in the Villa game, that should have been that. I think Friedel is a big personality in the dressing room though and AVB, with what happened at Chelsea in mind, didn't want to rock the boat. But then after a while Lloris was getting frustrated and might have caused an upset in the dressing room himself. His first game as first choice was the epitome of throwing him in at the deep end, the derby. Not exactly the most logical thing to do.

Whatever the outcome, you would have said AVB had handled this situation masterfully. Lloris plays well - "ya see, it was because AVB let him blend in slowly". Lloris fudges up - "ya see, he's not ready yet, AVB was right to stick with Friedel". If he'd dropped Friedel from the beginning and Lloris had played well - "ya see, top managers make difficult decisions and he's been rewarded here". If he'd dropped Friedel and Lloris was a bit dodgy - "something about context, can't you see what he's trying to do long term etc..."

The stats don't lie - we have conceded 16 goals in 10 games with Friedel and only 13 goals in 15 games with Lloris. If you take out the game at the Emirates it's 8 in 14 with Lloris. That's an enormous difference. Yes, I know there are other factors, which I'll talk about in a moment, but we are now playing our best keeper, the one most suited to our system, and we are seeing the benefits of it.

What irritated me even more earlier in the season though was AVB's persistence with Gallas despite several shocking performances. Gallas is supposed to be the experienced leader, yet he was as guilty as anyone of panicking and hoofing the ball when not under any pressure, such a stark contrast from Ledley. Not only that, he was being asked to play a high line and a high pressing game. 35 year olds are generally not suited to these kind of tactics, and he often could not keep up with things. As Dawson has won his place back in the side, things have improved a lot, because while he's not the fastest defender around, he is more mobile than Gallas and doesn't tire as much towards the end of games after pressing for such a long time.

Something I absolutely cannot stand a manager doing is picking players who clearly aren't suited to the system they want to play - Graham having us hoofing high balls up to the 5ft tall Rebrov, Hoddle playing an open 3-5-2 formation with no pace or defensive midfielder in the side...now that we are actually playing the right personnel in the right formation we are seeing results. AVB is currently in my good books because he is playing the correct players in the correct formation and getting results. But if we miss out on Champions League football by one point like we did last year, I'll have to wonder...what if Lloris had been there with his quicker reactions to Cahill's opening goal in the Chelsea game, or Dzeko's winner at the Etihad? What if Dawson had been there to head away the corner Wigan scored from, or had stayed closer to Mata for Chelsea's equaliser?

Moving on, I am very happy with our defensive options. I haven't been to impressed by Walker or Assou-Ekotto's attacking play recently and I think full-back is the next priority area for us to strengthen after the striker situation, but we generally look quite solid at the moment. I'm struggling to think of another team with better centre-back options than us, especially when the best one of all gets fit soon. Unfortunately we no longer have Sandro to protect the defence, but Parker is a good backup and I am hoping that Holtby's influence will also help us to keep the ball better and take pressure off of our defence.
 
Yup brilliant. Play a keeper who doesn't know the language and doesn't know his team mates. It's not like goalkeepers need to communicate. Nope. It's just not required.

Things that LLoris himself has said were required.

It's points that would have suffered.

Yes he did

[video=youtube;1pmpUevJ_AA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pmpUevJ_AA[/video]



Sure it's not completely fluent, but it's enough to play football with.
 
Yes he did

[video=youtube;1pmpUevJ_AA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pmpUevJ_AA[/video]


Was it initially difficult to fit into a new environment?
HL: Not really, as I have already said, the most important thing is to get to know your team mates. I arrived at Spurs quite late, right at the end of the transfer window, and so did not have a lot of time to adapt, I had to get to know my team mates very quickly, because even though I didn’t play in the Premier League straight away I did play in the Europa League and so had to get to know my team mates straight away and training with them every day, getting used to the language, all of that helped as well. So I tried to fit in as quickly as possible, because it is important to do so.



A youtube video likely scripted is your proof? Don't make me laugh.
 
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