Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Raziel]

Taking results like Colchester and Bayern are misleading, the general trend is down.
No one that I've seen on this board is saying anything else, the issues is why and what should be done about it.

At this moment in time I can see no issues that a new manager is going to come in and fix, not until January and the window opens.
Even then I would give poch the rest of the season.

Mate, let me give you a simple example

Main 11, every fudging game -> Gazza, Aurier (perhaps try Foyth), Sanchez, Jan/Toby (rotate to keep old legs fresher), Davies, N'dombele, Sissoko, Son, Lo Celso, Dele (Lamela rotate when fit), Kane
Early subs that include us seeing more of Lucas (if Dele/Lamela are not producing), Dier, Winks as a sub
Strategy to leverage, give game time to Sessegnon, Tangaga and Troy

Build a plan, system to get more out of the stupid amount of attacking talent we have, if we can't keep clean sheets, we should be able to at least score (not take 57 minutes to get a shot on target against dross teams)

In general a new manager can make it clear that performance is what matters, not names, and if you are not committed, not in form, you don't play, even if that means we play the kids in front of you. Give that manager two months to really see who is worth keeping and who goes in January.

Consistent, merit based selection, focus on our attacking play, smart early subs and a lack of tolerance for ongoing brick performances would do fudging wonders. Add in the bounce, a few wins could do wonders to confidence and we would all wonder wtf we have been waiting for. The players are not responding to Poch, a few buys in January will not change that, a new manager that makes it clear that everyone is up for evaluation, very different.

 

[glasgowspur]

Mate, let me give you a simple example

Main 11, every fudging game -> Gazza, Aurier (perhaps try Foyth), Sanchez, Jan/Toby (rotate to keep old legs fresher), Davies, N'dombele, Sissoko, Son, Lo Celso, Dele (Lamela rotate when fit), Kane
Early subs that include us seeing more of Lucas (if Dele/Lamela are not producing), Dier, Winks as a sub
Strategy to leverage, give game time to Sessegnon, Tangaga and Troy

Build a plan, system to get more out of the stupid amount of attacking talent we have, if we can't keep clean sheets, we should be able to at least score (not take 57 minutes to get a shot on target against dross teams)

In general a new manager can make it clear that performance is what matters, not names, and if you are not committed, not in form, you don't play, even if that means we play the kids in front of you. Give that manager two months to really see who is worth keeping and who goes in January.

Consistent, merit based selection, focus on our attacking play, smart early subs and a lack of tolerance for ongoing brick performances would do fudging wonders. Add in the bounce, a few wins could do wonders to confidence and we would all wonder wtf we have been waiting for. The players are not responding to Poch, a few buys in January will not change that, a new manager that makes it clear that everyone is up for evaluation, very different.

So a squad of 21 (adding in another gk) with three unproven youth players, two inexperienced cbs, two fbs, and we expect to complete in four comps.

Good luck with that.

 

[Raziel]

So a squad of 21 (adding in another gk) with three unproven youth players, two inexperienced cbs, two fbs, and we expect to complete in four comps.

Good luck with that.

- 4 comps? think you missed a loss to Colchester somewhere along the way.

The question is what could we do to fix things before the window opened, and I highlighted a few things a new manager could do that would make a difference now.

- That included consistent team selection, merit based inclusion, smart and early subs, not playing the uncommitted and defining a system better suited to our attacking players.

This conversations confuse me (I must bs slow)?

- Four comps when it's three
- Two inexperienced CBs? we literally have Sanchez, Jan, Toby, Foyth, Dier, Tangaga and Davies (who can play there in a pinch)
- Two FB's, yes, plus both Jan/Toby who can play out either side, Foyth who is playing RB and Sissoko who has covered
- Three unproven youth players, yep, who can play 15-20 minutes at appropriate times, add energy, motivation and gain experience vs. playing underperforming players who don't want to be here.

You really believe we couldn't sustain 2 months of games without Rose & Eriksen? and possibly even one less of Jan/Toby?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

So he sees there's a problem and has done what about it?

Let's not put aside the fact that even without the "refresh" you claim he needs, we should still be 3rd at absolute worst.

I’ll ask again, when most top Managers acknowledge that a 4 year cycle is what you get from a core group of players, why should it not affect us when we’ve made far less changes over the same time period compared to our competitors? Given that, it can make players that look good on paper not perform optimally because they’ve spent too much time together.

but what’s ‘he’ done about it? ‘He’ doesn’t have absolute control over which players come in or leave. That’s where things like contracts, money, competitors etc come into play. And the fact that we’ve taken ourselves from table 2 to table 1, leaving these players with fewer better options than us to leave to.

 

[glasgowspur]

- 4 comps? think you missed a loss to Colchester somewhere along the way.

The question is what could we do to fix things before the window opened, and I highlighted a few things a new manager could do that would make a difference now.

- That included consistent team selection, merit based inclusion, smart and early subs, not playing the uncommitted and defining a system better suited to our attacking players.

This conversations confuse me (I must bs slow)?

- Four comps when it's three
- Two inexperienced CBs? we literally have Sanchez, Jan, Toby, Foyth, Dier, Tangaga and Davies (who can play there in a pinch)
- Two FB's, yes, plus both Jan/Toby who can play out either side, Foyth who is playing RB and Sissoko who has covered
- Three unproven youth players, yep, who can play 15-20 minutes at appropriate times, add energy, motivation and gain experience vs. playing underperforming players who don't want to be here.

You really believe we couldn't sustain 2 months of games without Rose & Eriksen? and possibly even one less of Jan/Toby?

Apologies, I didn't realise you are were talking about from here on in for this season.

Yes we literally have those players, but I still don't see how the numbers stack up for me, looks to me like you are double counting. Can you really see Toby and Jan playing fb on the weekend and cb during the week? They'd be knackered inside a month.
Rest them for a week and play a back line of aurier sanchez foyth and Davies, that would be brave.

 

[Raziel]

Apologies, I didn't realise you are were talking about from here on in for this season.

Yes we literally have those players, but I still don't see how the numbers stack up for me, looks to me like you are double counting. Can you really see Toby and Jan playing fb on the weekend and cb during the week? They'd be knackered inside a month.
Rest them for a week and play a back line of aurier sanchez foyth and Davies, that would be brave.

Two months, priority on CL & PL (we either pay the kids or the out of form group in FA)

First choice in CL & PL -> Gazza, Aurier (we have to take the risk, occasional Foyth in), Sanchez +1 of Jan/Toby/perhaps Tangaga, Davies, Sissoko (occasional Winks), N'dombele, Lo Celso, Son (sub Sessegnon in occasionally), Dele (rotate with Lamela, Lucas), Kane (sub with last 10 minutes occasionally for Troy).

Jan/Toby as FBs would be only in case of injury suspension and yes would leave us a little exposed at that point.

It's not perfect, yes it's brave/foolish but literally the results couldn't be worse and the message would be sent. To me we are getting 23 points from 20 fudging games, Rose/Eriksen are not making a difference, we could get that with anyone from academy in squad.

But again, Poch is not trying .. a new manager could (probably come up with something better than me) come up with alternatives that get us through the pre-window games, get a few points on board and perhaps build squad confidence so new players aren't walking into a complete brickshow and expected to save the season by themselves.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

This may sound perverse to some people, but it is commonly said on here now that it looks like we have no plan. But I would posit that holding Lo Celso off, being careful with N’Dombele, careful with Sess, continuing to play with Eriksen for example as a consequence, it shows we do have a plan. It shows we are still making decisions for the long term in mind, we aren’t rushing players in because we are desperate to get points on the board, we are bringing them through slowly so that they settle well and can be most effective in a more sustainable way.

I think, we know from the above quotes he wants to move certain players on. He knows that Eriksen isn’t doing it right now. But the fact that he is still taking decisions for the long term suggests to me things are going to work out fine. Decisions we make now and short term pain we may experience now can pay off later this season, or even in future seasons. We are still doing things with a long term plan in mind, for the good of the players that will still be here, and that’s a really good thing.

 

[thfcsteff]

In order to challenge for the title we need to improve on a few squad players - no different to any other year and something Poch should have had in hand years ago.

This team should still be finishing top 3 at absolute worst

He tried.
Instead of getting Sadio Mane and Winaldjum, he ended up with Njie and your best mate Sissoko, who against all odds he managed to turn into a half-decent player. Then he got Nkoudou. Then Janssen...

 

[Raziel]

This may sound perverse to some people, but it is commonly said on here now that it looks like we have no plan. But I would posit that holding Lo Celso off, being careful with N’Dombele, careful with Sess, continuing to play with Eriksen for example as a consequence, it shows we do have a plan. It shows we are still making decisions for the long term in mind, we aren’t rushing players in because we are desperate to get points on the board, we are bringing them through slowly so that they settle well and can be most effective in a more sustainable way.

I think, we know from the above quotes he wants to move certain players on. He knows that Eriksen isn’t doing it right now. But the fact that he is still taking decisions for the long term suggests to me things are going to work out fine. Decisions we make now and short term pain we may experience now can pay off later this season, or even in future seasons. We are still doing things with a long term plan in mind, for the good of the players that will still be here, and that’s a really good thing.

To provide a counter

- We are saving Lo Celso so he can go play 90 minutes for his country and get the brick kicked out of him?
- Eriksen is shot (confidence, head issues, whatever), we literally could play anyone there with more effect, if you want to manage Lo Celso and N'dombele, I don't see how that equals I must play Eriksen
- Players we want to keep, scraping draws or losing while gaining experience seems to be a much better option than playing players who don't want to be here, will not be here and getting the same bad (or worse) results.

Lets assume he has a plan, could the plan start with a system? what does Poch want us to play? (because I can't tell, press/no press, FBs forward or not, DM, one striker or two, width or diamond?).

Because my real worry is the only plan this guy has is trying to re-create prime Walker/Rose with a fit Wanyama/Dembele in CM, a form Eriksen and the entire team playing a bum rush press (because the entire average age of squad is <22). City money would struggle to get you to re-create that ..

 

[scaramanga]

He tried.
Instead of getting Sadio Mane and Winaldjum, he ended up with Njie and your best mate Sissoko, who against all odds he managed to turn into a half-decent player. Then he got Nkoudou. Then Janssen...

He's part of the transfer committee. That's on him as much as anyone else.

 

[scaramanga]

I’ll ask again, when most top Managers acknowledge that a 4 year cycle is what you get from a core group of players, why should it not affect us when we’ve made far less changes over the same time period compared to our competitors? Given that, it can make players that look good on paper not perform optimally because they’ve spent too much time together.

I don't buy that for a second.

A squad that hasn't been "refreshed" may stop improving, but if our players are playing at less than the sum of their parts, it's on the manager. Just as he gets the credit for getting us to where we were, he gets the blame for dropping us to where we are.

but what’s ‘he’ done about it? ‘He’ doesn’t have absolute control over which players come in or leave. That’s where things like contracts, money, competitors etc come into play. And the fact that we’ve taken ourselves from table 2 to table 1, leaving these players with fewer better options than us to leave to.

He's part of the transfer committee - he has a say.

I don't think we need to be finding the very rare players that are better than our first team, we just need to find a few that are better/fitter than our squad players who never get a game.

If players we wanted to leave haven't, then they were treated too gently. No professional footballer would want to have no game time at all for the rest of their contract, risking being unable to get match for for a new club. Sissoko aside (who it seems would have gone but there were no takers) the rest should be banned from matches, the training ground, etc. Leave their images out of anything that would earn them image rights, make them do all the bricky hospitals for sick kids events and fine them if they don't do them.

 

[thfcsteff]

He's part of the transfer committee. That's on him as much as anyone else.

Not when he doesn’t have a say in the wages...

 

[Gazza]

You two staff members agree on things like levy and Poch hahah.

 

[benp]

Strickly just in terms of Poch's comments after the Man Utd semi-final ("me or another coach") and pre and post the CL final ("i might leave if we win", "i might have left if we'd won"), what's the difference to how Redknapp shamelessly hitched his skirt for the England squad, in terms of whether he was thought to want to be here long-term?

Note: i'm not talking all he other "my account is owned by my dog" or the other loudmoth general "rentaquote" stuff.

what is influencing your choice of characteristics to compare Redknapp and Pochettino with? Surely if you're appraising behaviour, you take it as a whole? Earlier in the thread you compared Pochettino's results to Redknapp, and now sections of behaviour too. No manager will win if you compare the best parts of one with the most negative interpretation of the other; surely you have to take the money laundering (and the like) into account too? Poch didn't do this, so he gets a +1 from me!

Let's reframe this a bit; which manager would you rather have right now to manage spurs? Really broaden the net - don't worry about gettable. I'd change Pochettino for Ferguson, I'm pretty sure (in his prime, not from his pension) for example. If I narrow it to who is currently in career (regardless of would come) it gets harder to choose. I can't think of a name that I would prefer that is realistically available. I'm happy to keep Pochettino (who has been a top tier/world class manager over his tenure taken holistically) - even if it was dumb luck the first time, I've never seen a Spurs team get that lucky before, and I don't mind waiting for that kind of luck again.

 

[Raziel]

what is influencing your choice of characteristics to compare Redknapp and Pochettino with? Surely if you're appraising behaviour, you take it as a whole? Earlier in the thread you compared Pochettino's results to Redknapp, and now sections of behaviour too. No manager will win if you compare the best parts of one with the most negative interpretation of the other; surely you have to take the money laundering (and the like) into account too? Poch didn't do this, so he gets a +1 from me!

Let's reframe this a bit; which manager would you rather have right now to manage spurs? Really broaden the net - don't worry about gettable. I'd change Pochettino for Ferguson, I'm pretty sure (in his prime, not from his pension) for example. If I narrow it to who is currently in career (regardless of would come) it gets harder to choose. I can't think of a name that I would prefer that is realistically available. I'm happy to keep Pochettino (who has been a top tier/world class manager over his tenure taken holistically) - even if it was dumb luck the first time, I've never seen a Spurs team get that lucky before, and I don't mind waiting for that kind of luck again.

There are some similarities, (albeit at different points in their career), both probably overachieved vs. expectation, both had the best of the career at Spurs, both had suitors, both didn't do enough to shut down the rumors (if not actively encourage), both seemed to have got distracted at the end ..

Honestly I would take an interim manager over Poch right now, people keep arguing that it's this season, or since January, it's actually been downhill for what is now the third season (every stat backs that up, GA, GF, average GP game, league position, etc.), and there is nothing to suggest it will change. We can still save this season, by January, not soo much. But the obvious are there, Jose and Allegri, we would be nuts not to look at both of them.

Insert the usual "Jose is a chequebook manager", yes I heard that about Harry, and it's that what most people are proposing we do with Poch? only difference is you know if you give Jose money he will win something. +money will come, Levy didn't spend a billion dollars to have Spurs compete in the same space, it's to fund a future where we compete financially.

 

[glasgowspur]

Two months, priority on CL & PL (we either pay the kids or the out of form group in FA)

First choice in CL & PL -> Gazza, Aurier (we have to take the risk, occasional Foyth in), Sanchez +1 of Jan/Toby/perhaps Tangaga, Davies, Sissoko (occasional Winks), N'dombele, Lo Celso, Son (sub Sessegnon in occasionally), Dele (rotate with Lamela, Lucas), Kane (sub with last 10 minutes occasionally for Troy).

Jan/Toby as FBs would be only in case of injury suspension and yes would leave us a little exposed at that point.

It's not perfect, yes it's brave/foolish but literally the results couldn't be worse and the message would be sent. To me we are getting 23 points from 20 fudging games, Rose/Eriksen are not making a difference, we could get that with anyone from academy in squad.

But again, Poch is not trying .. a new manager could (probably come up with something better than me) come up with alternatives that get us through the pre-window games, get a few points on board and perhaps build squad confidence so new players aren't walking into a complete brickshow and expected to save the season by themselves.

You know what I pick out of this and other posts like it, "it couldn't get any worse".
You to bet on that.
And
"A new manager could" he might as well do, he might also fail.
At least you've left out the "I guarantee' bit some have been using
But if only it was all so easy, sack the manager, bin off a quarter of the squad, run the rest into the ground for two months, bring in new players in January.
Cushty

 

[scaramanga]

Not when he doesn’t have a say in the wages...

Are you trying to tell me that Poch is unable to know what potential purchases might want as a salary?

Or that he's incapable of identifying targets that are within our salary bracket?

 

[Raziel]

You know what I pick out of this and other posts like it, "it couldn't get any worse".
You to bet on that.
And
"A new manager could" he might as well do, he might also fail.
At least you've left out the "I guarantee' bit some have been using
But if only it was all so easy, sack the manager, bin off a quarter of the squad, run the rest into the ground for two months, bring in new players in January.
Cushty

Actually mate, that's what making a decision does

- based on every historical evidence we have, does a new manager make a difference short term = unequivocally yes
- Therefore would it make sense to leverage that between now and the window, then get fresh legs, new players in = again, logic says yes.
- I'm not binning a quarter of the squad, 2 maximum 3 players with a directive to leverage form over name.

It's not easy or guaranteed but on paper is the vastly more logical choice vs. stumbling sick to January and hoping what then? And again my response was to the question "what could a new manager do"

We have to remember, no choice is a choice and if our position is vastly worse in January, the club made that choice (to do nothing)

 

[glasgowspur]

Actually mate, that's what making a decision does

- based on every historical evidence we have, does a new manager make a difference short term = unequivocally yes
- Therefore would it make sense to leverage that between now and the window, then get fresh legs, new players in = again, logic says yes.
- I'm not binning a quarter of the squad, 2 maximum 3 players with a directive to leverage form over name.

It's not easy or guaranteed by on paper is the vastly more logical choice vs. stumbling sick to January and hoping what then? And again my response was to the question "what could a new manager do"

We have to remember, no choice is a choice and if our position is vastly worse in January, the club made that choice (to do nothing)

Short term, yes sometimes, not always.
OGS, what was it 10 games undefeated, where are they now? 1 goal better off than us.
What about Everton, Southampton, Watford, those three change management on a regular basis, oh look that's the bottom of the table.
There is nothing to say changing manager is anything more than a punt.

 

[scaramanga]

Short term, yes sometimes, not always.
OGS, what was it 10 games undefeated, where are they now? 1 goal better off than us.
What about Everton, Southampton, Watford, those three change management on a regular basis, oh look that's the bottom of the table.
There is nothing to say changing manager is anything more than a punt.

Yet all the current (over 1 year) of evidence shows that Poch is not fixing the problem.