Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[BrainOfLevy]

What's your source for this?



Again, this is a lot of supposition on your part (and that's fair, none of us are on the 'inside' really), but i again ask: which other top manager goes into the club's biggest game for decades and the manager's own biggest game ever and says "if we win i might leave"? Do you honestly see the likes of Klopp saying that? Did he say such before Liverpool's CL final in 2018? Did he say such after their loss? There are various ways to apply pressure on a board...I'm not even going to ask which of Poch's peers would actually say "trophies are just for egos" months beforehand.
The top coaches who are hungry (like Klopp and others) would instead project a "this is just the start" type of image and not the Redknapp "as good as it gets" type of image.



That "leverage" might have looked strong 18 months to 2 years now. He's still here after signing that long contract before not getting in any player so if anything he looks like someone with empty threats. For that, i do feel for him as i think Levy/the board have shown their lack of 'cajones'...the trouble is Poch's utterances have often shown he is in line with them somewhat (eg, "trophies are only for egos")

I don't think there would be much focus on the lemons and aura stuff if he was doing the basics that got him here: act and talk professionally and not like an emotional up-and-down guy (one minute we're going for the title, the next it will take us 10 years; one minute he's happy with the squad, the next we are struggling with different agendas etc etc), bench underperforming players and bench those who don't seem to 'have loyalty' etc.

I don’t need a source. If you have followed this sport at all and know how the media works, you can tell what was happening. Madrid had begun the campaign. They began the campaign because Poch was their top choice. As soon as he said no, the campaign stopped. The only reason the stories about Poch were appearing is because they wanted them to.

 

[glorygloryeze]

What is your endgame here? To be “right”?
Is that what these “discussions” are now about?

Madness...

Sorry, what are you talking about here?

 

[thfcsteff]

Doesn't mean you have to suddenly start using bizarre (non-existent?) tactics, make dreadful substitutions and generally struggle to get a tune out of a very good bunch of players. You don't have to play Kane in midfield and you don't have to take 18 months to integrate the new signings you do have.

However, most importantly, you don't have to give ambiguous press conferences for over a year and constantly flirt with leaving. What manager has ever threatened to walk out before a champions league final?

The same happened with Redknapp. He lost all the goodwill he had built up over his tenure when he flirted with England. Poch has done the same. We're not even sure if he wants to be here and the enormous leeway he would likely have received has dissipated somewhat due to his own entirely avoidable and unnecessary actions. His disloyalty reached a peak at exactly the time his on-field performances were on the wain. It was terribly managed and appalling timing from him politically.

So yes, he has faced challenges - but doesn't every manager? I'm sure lot's of managers would kill to face the issues Poch is currently tackling if they had the tools at his disposal. And it's not like he hasn't been sacked before either.

Sorry, have you just compared Poch’s behaviour with Redkrapp’s?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don’t need a source. If you have followed this sport at all and know how the media works, you can tell what was happening. Madrid had begun the campaign. They began the campaign because Poch was their top choice. As soon as he said no, the campaign stopped. The only reason the stories about Poch were appearing is because they wanted them to.

I do follow the sport; and there is as much "evidence" for Madrid stopping their campaign because of Levy and the big payoff needed as there is because Poch told them to 'do one'...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Sorry, have you just compared Poch’s behaviour with Redkrapp’s?

Strickly just in terms of Poch's comments after the Man Utd semi-final ("me or another coach") and pre and post the CL final ("i might leave if we win", "i might have left if we'd won"), what's the difference to how Redknapp shamelessly hitched his skirt for the England squad, in terms of whether he was thought to want to be here long-term?

Note: i'm not talking all he other "my account is owned by my dog" or the other loudmoth general "rentaquote" stuff.

 

[scaramanga]

The players that he wanted to move, didn’t move. They had options they didn’t take and decided to wait out until the end of their contracts. He is quoted as saying that despite loving certain players, they need to move on for the greater good of the club. He clearly saw it coming because that’s what he wanted to do...

I don’t like to apportion personal blame here. I don’t blame Levy, I don’t blame Poch, I don’t really blame the players for doing what they think is right for their own careers (even if I disagree about how smart they are being and if I dislike the effect it is having on my club). I think we are victims of the success we had, that there aren’t too many better options outside of us for a lot of players, and we are waiting to start spending like a big club while still needing to get rid of players we signed when we were a best of the rest club. The new era has been for 2 years while the whole club makes do, but that is why I think it’s worth sticking together and getting through this. A new manager would identify the same problems, the same positions, and have no guarantee they take the club forward in the same way. Poch knows us, he’s performed well, and I trust that the guy that helped us to more consistent excellence than I thought possible without a sugar daddy has not suddenly turned to brick. I trust him to turn it around.

If (and again, I'm accepting a premise for the sake of discussion) teams go through a 4 year cycle, then the planning for that should have started around 3.5-4 years ago. We shouldn't be finding ourselves up against some arbitrary time limit finding out that a couple of problems has left us unable to cope.

If some players won't leave and you need funds for a "refresh" then bite the bullet and sell someone else. Trippier should have gone a season sooner, Rose should have gone as a freebie to clear up wages, etc. If Eriksen won't go, make sure he knows life will be fudging awful for him if he stays - make him reconsider a slightly less glamorous move.

There's no excuse for someone at Poch's level to be caught out for timing in something he predicted. He should have been on this earlier and dealt with it earlier (if it really is a thing at all).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

That goes both ways

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I do follow the sport; and there is as much "evidence" for Madrid stopping their campaign because of Levy and the big payoff needed as there is because Poch told them to 'do one'...

If Poch wanted to make it happen, he could have made it happen. I would think that was obvious to anyone.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

If (and again, I'm accepting a premise for the sake of discussion) teams go through a 4 year cycle, then the planning for that should have started around 3.5-4 years ago. We shouldn't be finding ourselves up against some arbitrary time limit finding out that a couple of problems has left us unable to cope.

If some players won't leave and you need funds for a "refresh" then bite the bullet and sell someone else. Trippier should have gone a season sooner, Rose should have gone as a freebie to clear up wages, etc. If Eriksen won't go, make sure he knows life will be fudging awful for him if he stays - make him reconsider a slightly less glamorous move.

There's no excuse for someone at Poch's level to be caught out for timing in something he predicted. He should have been on this earlier and dealt with it earlier (if it really is a thing at all).

What? Release Rose on a free?

This place has gone flipping bonkers today. I’m worried about some of you.

 

[billyiddo]

If (and again, I'm accepting a premise for the sake of discussion) teams go through a 4 year cycle, then the planning for that should have started around 3.5-4 years ago. We shouldn't be finding ourselves up against some arbitrary time limit finding out that a couple of problems has left us unable to cope.

If some players won't leave and you need funds for a "refresh" then bite the bullet and sell someone else. Trippier should have gone a season sooner, Rose should have gone as a freebie to clear up wages, etc. If Eriksen won't go, make sure he knows life will be fudging awful for him if he stays - make him reconsider a slightly less glamorous move.

There's no excuse for someone at Poch's level to be caught out for timing in something he predicted. He should have been on this earlier and dealt with it earlier (if it really is a thing at all).

These are all 'solutions' Poch doesn't have the ultimate say on

 

[glasgowspur]

I think it comes down to whether the mitigating circumstances this season are enough of a set of reasons for exactly how poor we seem to be in terms of gameplay and how poorly coached the player are now looking.

- Our fixtures are nowhere near the hardest we've ever had - we should not be starting the season as poorly as we have; 3 wins in 11 is horrendous given what he has at his disposal.
- we are 11th not 6th/7th; again given our fixtures and squad there is no excuses for that

- those key players running their contracts down does NOT automatically equal that they should be playing poorly: we aren't the only club that has had key players in their final years at clubs, most of the time they play really well, even just to advertise their abilities to would be suitors: how many players have Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool had in recent times on nearly completed contracts? Did they all play as poorly as our ones are? Or is that a red herring?

- These players if they are playing poorly do (mostly) have alternatives that could be played in instead. Is it not up to the coach to make use of them? If they are deemed not good enough after all these years that most of them have been purchased under Poch, is that not another red flag?

And in terms of "giving him what he needs", i would be inclined to agree...but you have to ask who would have come into the team to be our DCM to replace Wanyama if/when he'd have been sold?
The fact that this position seems to have been highlighted as a priority is another red flag (or ability to tackle/defend from the middle has been shocking for nearly 18 months and should have been a higher priority that, example FB..)

So playing current PL champs, current CL champs, the current form team in the PL, and our biggest rivals, followed by a team who have spent £120m to push for the top four aren't among the toughest fixtures we could have.
Ok. We've haven't played Chelsea our man u yet, that's it. After 11 games, how much harder could it have got?

 

[braineclipse]

At least it's finally coming to light it's about short v long term. Change the manager and we can potentially save this season, he'll likely identify the same issues Poch has and look to bring in players in the same positions that we're looking to atm and we'll lose the same players that we're going to lose anyway.

Then come next seaon we get to see if the manager can settle at the club, which is always a lottery (and to compound matters he has to oversee a churn of players) just ask Chelsea, United, City, Arsenal and Liverpool - all clubs who with more money to spend than us and higher reputations in the game and all have patchy records with managers, even sure thing won all there is to manage managers - just as much chance we end up with the next Emery/LVG than it is we appoint the next Guardiola/Klopp (in fact the odds are probably stacked against getting it right? Beyond new manager bounce anyway) so medium-long term the outlook is uncertain, but at least we get to maybe have a good 2nd half of this season, Or we back Poch over the transition which has just begun having a fair idea what he can do here (doing it here being quite an important factor) when he has a squad of players not at the end of its cycle.

If we can be fairly confident about long term success I'm all for it.

Replacing players that done regardless, sure.

I'm starting to worry about what the turnaround under Pochettino actually looks like. How many players will have to be replaced? Will younger players that could have been key players in other circumstances want away because of our results, performances and the delay in turning things around?

I also worry that Poch is getting stuck in a pattern of mistakes, that the flow and confidence that was there isn't there and might not return. It's difficult to break a pattern like this, it doesn't necessarily happen even though he's an excellent manager.

 

[scaramanga]

These are all 'solutions' Poch doesn't have the ultimate say on

What do you think Levy's response to "If you don't do this the team will be fudged in 2 years and we'll be near a relegation scrap"?

Either:

1. Poch hasn't made the case
2. Levy doesn't believe Poch
3. Levy doesn't care and is happy for us to be a bottom half team

My money's on 1

 

[scaramanga]

What? Release Rose on a free?

This place has gone flipping bonkers today. I’m worried about some of you.

If we need to clear the decks in order to "refresh" the team, then it needs doing by any means possible.

If keeping those players that apparently need refreshing is detrimental to the team then they have no value anyway - in fact, their value is negative.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You honestly see us as looking more solid than a few weeks ago? I suggest stats would disagree, especially given the opposition we are playing these days (save for Liverpool).
Again, you're pinning your expectations on hope based on last year and previous.

Fair enough though...

I think we are definitely better than the low point of Brighton. Obviously it's all relative though seeing as that was by far the worst performance I have seen from us under Pochettino.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

If we need to clear the decks in order to "refresh" the team, then it needs doing by any means possible.

If keeping those players that apparently need refreshing is detrimental to the team then they have no value anyway - in fact, their value is negative.

But maybe waiting with Rose enabled us to sign Sessegnon, who Fulham didn’t want to sell the previous season. And now we have one of the best left sided prospects in the League.

Maybe in some parallel universe decisions were taken that mean we just continue to improve year over year with no challenges, and negative consequences or any decision that is taken don’t actually effect us, we just keep letting the good times roll because we make every decision perfectly, with no ultimate negative consequences. And all is great, competitors don’t make it difficult for us, players do everything we tell them to do, and Spurs just keeps on moving.

In our reality though, I think there has been enough we have had to deal with that mean that even good, talented people can suffer a bad run. It doesn’t mean everyone has gone to brick.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

What do you think Levy's response to "If you don't do this the team will be fudged in 2 years and we'll be near a relegation scrap"?

Either:

1. Poch hasn't made the case
2. Levy doesn't believe Poch
3. Levy doesn't care and is happy for us to be a bottom half team

My money's on 1

Poch has made the case. He’s made it publicly. Those players didn’t want to leave. We then come into the financial realities of not being able to release millions of pounds worth of talent so we can move on, if we ultimately want to be able to sign their replacements.

 

[scaramanga]

Poch has made the case. He’s made it publicly. Those players didn’t want to leave. We then come into the financial realities of not being able to release millions of pounds worth of talent so we can move on, if we ultimately want to be able to sign their replacements.

So those players wouldn't move. Said players will go for free (or next to) after they see out their contracts.

So if we accept the premise that the squad needs refreshing, we need to sell other players to generate the funds to buy new ones.

 

[scaramanga]

But maybe waiting with Rose enabled us to sign Sessegnon, who Fulham didn’t want to sell the previous season. And now we have one of the best left sided prospects in the League.

Maybe in some parallel universe decisions were taken that mean we just continue to improve year over year with no challenges, and negative consequences or any decision that is taken don’t actually effect us, we just keep letting the good times roll because we make every decision perfectly, with no ultimate negative consequences. And all is great, competitors don’t make it difficult for us, players do everything we tell them to do, and Spurs just keeps on moving.

In our reality though, I think there has been enough we have had to deal with that mean that even good, talented people can suffer a bad run. It doesn’t mean everyone has gone to brick.

He absolutely should be getting it right. If he's in the elite bracket of managers, that's what they do.

 

[billyiddo]

What do you think Levy's response to "If you don't do this the team will be fudged in 2 years and we'll be near a relegation scrap"?

Either:

1. Poch hasn't made the case
2. Levy doesn't believe Poch
3. Levy doesn't care and is happy for us to be a bottom half team

My money's on 1

Considering Poch has been speaking of a rebuild and needing to act in a different way in order to take the next step for a length of time longer than which it has become apparent that is what was needed i think it's safe to say that it is a conversation that has been had a higher level.

My take would be that with the stadium move impacting the finances a decision was made that we should stick with what we have and rebuild once the finances are there to buy the right caliber of player. To let the players contracts run down in the hope they do a Modric/Bale and perform despite deciding to leave.