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Why has Michael Jackson not been cancelled?

Daisuk said:
I only saw the tongue thing, I didn't know there was kissing involved - what I saw just looked playful (albeit weird), but as you say, he's a person of power, and the kid would probably have felt pressured into listening to him, which of course isn't great. And I completely agree with Glenda over here, it all depends on how the child felt. But imagine in a situation like this, say if the child found it funny and playful and actually didn't think much about it, but then saw the massive response it got in the media! He'll obviously feel very differently about it just by the volume of news coverage this thing has gotten, it's bound to color his response to it in a negative fashion. I'm not saying he's not allowed to react negatively, of course, but there's a definite role of how

I know it's not comparable in the slightest, but I sometimes think back to when I was 13-14 - if a woman I found attractive wanted to have sex with me at the time, I would've jumped right on it! And I imagine I would've liked it - UNTIL someone started telling me it was wrong and abuse and all that brick. I'm just trying to say that stuff like this isn't always as cut and dry as we seem to think - I think we inadvertently push a lot of shame and guilt on the socalled "victim" of circumstances like this, which might make them feel more like a victim than they felt in the first place, simply by succumbing to our cultural bias of always thinking there's a victim in situations like this. I remember an old friend of mine, she was 14 when she got a boyfriend, who was 19 or something at the time. At the time everyone was cool with it (this was back in the 90's), they seemed to have a loving relationship (I think they were together for 4-5 years or something) - yet, in hindsight, people are very eager to criticize that relationship, because the guy was over 16 years old (the age limit for consensual sex), and supposedly took advantage of her. Now, I'm pretty sure she did not feel taken advantage of when they were together - so why the eagerness to judge? We have to see that there's a cultural bias here - and that we may be a bit quick to label everything as pedophilia just to be safe.

Shame is an interesting concept, and it makes us behave in ways that we think are innate, but maybe is way more learned than we tend to accept.
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It's hard to make this point without sounding a bit arsy, and I know you're are absolutely not one of the typically ignorant posters on here but......

It takes 15 seconds to watch the clip which contained the joke and the inappropriate kissing. If you haven't taken the take to watch it but still chose to formulate an opinion based on a headline and / or the reaction of others that's rather odd but is unfortunately human nature. Glasgow also had something to say about it without having seen it.

I don't feel like you have taken Glenda's point in how she meant it but I can't be certain and don't want to speak on behalf of other posters.

To me, it's not really about how the kid feels about the situation, for the exact reason you later go on to describe in terms of it seeming potentially awesome to bang one of your school teachers, I was exactly the same and many other pubescent boys and girls would probably have had similar feelings towards their teachers. There's often not enough of a grasp on right or wrong in the mind of the minor / child and what may seem "cool" at the time is in fact a form of abuse as you say, whether it's statutory rape or however it's labeled.

As for any mention of shame, that sounds dangerously like victim blaming to me. The shame entirely lies in this case with the Dalai Lama, as it does with the abuser in any similar or worse cases. Given that it was in front of cameras he must have thought it was okay, which sort of helps in a weird way but it's still so very far from harmless.
 
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spurspinter1 said:
It's hard to make this point without sounding a bit arsy, and I know you're are absolutely not one of the typically ignorant posters on here but......

It takes 15 seconds to watch the clip which contained the joke and the inappropriate kissing. If you haven't taken the take to watch it but still chose to formulate an opinion based on a headline and / or the reaction of others that's rather odd but is unfortunately human nature. Glasgow also had something to say about it without having seen it.

I don't feel like you have taken Glenda's point in how she meant it but I can't be certain and don't want to speak on behalf of other posters.

To me, it's not really about how the kid feels about the situation, for the exact reason you later go on to describe in terms of it seeming potentially awesome to bang one of your school teachers, I was exactly the same and many other pubescent boys and girls would probably have had similar feelings towards their teachers. There's often not enough of a grasp on right or wrong in the mind of the minor / child and what may seem "cool" at the time is in fact a form of abuse as you say, whether it's statutory rape or however it's labeled.

As for any mention of shame, that sounds dangerously like victim blaming to me. The shame entirely lies in this case with the Dalai Lama, as it does with the abuser in any similar or worse cases. Given that it was in front of cameras he must have thought it was okay, which sort of helps in a weird way but it's still so very far from harmless.
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I actually did watch a clip of it, just did not see any kissing there! :p

I'm just of the opinion that the way we look at naked bodies, genitals, kissing and what have you are deeply colored by our innate feelings of shame connected to nakedness and genitals, and what such acts normally entails - we cover ourselves, and immediately see anything that has to do with these things as a sort of nature given wrong/right scenario. We seem to think that sexual acts between say a 14 year old and say a 22 year old always is some sort of abuse, just because of the age difference and one of the participants being 14, when in fact it could be perfectly consensual UNTIL someone points this out to the couple and shames the older person, and consequently tells the 14 year old that she/he's been abused, resulting in the 14 year old feeling shame because it's expected of him/her, when the original acts could've been perfectly consensual. I'm trying to do the opposite of victim blaming the kid, I'm saying he's made more of a victim through this video being spread than the acts done by the Dalai Lama himself.

I'm not really trying to make a case for pedophilia here, there are far too many stories of actual rape and abuse obviously - just trying to point out that we tend to have a very black & white view of these things for the sake of simplicity, when reality could be two people very much in love, for instance. Sexual or intimate acts between different age groups doesn't necessarily include a victim, until someone says "hey, this guy is much older, this is abuse!", and the younger part is expected to feel like a victim.
 
Daisuk said:
I actually did watch a clip of it, just did not see any kissing there! :p


I'm just of the opinion that the way we look at naked bodies, genitals, kissing and what have you are deeply colored by our innate feelings of shame connected to nakedness and genitals, and what such acts normally entails - we cover ourselves, and immediately see anything that has to do with these things as a sort of nature given wrong/right scenario. We seem to think that sexual acts between say a 14 year old and say a 22 year old always is some sort of abuse, just because of the age difference and one of the participants being 14, when in fact it could be perfectly consensual UNTIL someone points this out to the couple and shames the older person, and consequently tells the 14 year old that she/he's been abused, resulting in the 14 year old feeling shame because it's expected of him/her, when the original acts could've been perfectly consensual. I'm trying to do the opposite of victim blaming the kid, I'm saying he's made more of a victim through this video being spread than the acts done by the Dalai Lama himself.

I'm not really trying to make a case for pedophilia here, there are far too many stories of actual rape and abuse obviously - just trying to point out that we tend to have a very black & white view of these things for the sake of simplicity, when reality could be two people very much in love, for instance. Sexual or intimate acts between different age groups doesn't necessarily include a victim, until someone says "hey, this guy is much older, this is abuse!", and the younger part is expected to feel like a victim.
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So you must have watched an 8 second clip rather than a 15 second one as it all happened in that space of time.

Not everything is black or white but a grown man (or woman) demanding a kiss on the lips from a minor is not right. This to me, isn't a wishy washy "agree to disagree" point, it's actually a pretty easy hill to choose to die on.

And intimate acts between someone of age and someone who isn't inherently have a victim (who needs / deserves support rather than judgement), due to the person who isn't of age not requiring the mental capacity to consent. A child can agree to do something but that could potentially be because they've been abused so much it seems normal but in your eyes it's totally chill because it was consentual between the alter boy and the priest? And there's only a problem if it's found out and it's the reaction of everyone else that causes the damage?

I'm rather concerned about even having to write these sentences. Whilst I am not trying to misrepresent what you're saying, it sounds pretty fudging atrocious unless I have completely misunderstood what you're getting at.

The idea that the reaction / judgement from others is what causes the harm / creates the victim rather than the act itself is a despicable viewpoint, sorry if that's a bit strong / harsh but what an awful notion. Maybe I'm being closed minded I can't wrap my head around what you're saying.
 
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I agree, he's a man of power and definitely should not have done that, it's very weird.

I disagree regarding the capacity to consent. Sexual acts can be harmless acts of love regardless of age difference, but it obviously depends heavily on the context - if it's someone forcing themselves on you, that's not what I'm talking about (come on, man, that goes without saying). I'm saying there are probably genuinely loving relationships out there that are considered illegal simply because of the age difference (like my friend's that I mentioned earlier) - there was an obvious age difference (14 and 19 or something), but they were genuinely loving of one another - it would've been incredibly cruel to have outed their relationship as pedophilia just because of the age difference and the legality of that, when the relationship so obviously was a loving one.

I have personally seen two teenage boys (that were students at the school I used to work at) that I believe were genuinely in love with one another, been torn apart by families blaming one another and the school for having "allowed" their relationship (as if that's the school's responsibility) - where yes, I genuinely believe that society's (parents) reactions were the main causer of the harm for those boys. If they had been left alone they'd been fine. And you're talking as though the act I'm talking about is a criminal offense in the first place, like there has to have been rape involved - again, that's not what I'm talking about. Kids can have consensual sex, even though it's a kind of legal gray area we don't really like to talk about.
 
Daisuk said:
I agree, he's a man of power and definitely should not have done that, it's very weird.

I disagree regarding the capacity to consent. Sexual acts can be harmless acts of love regardless of age difference, but it obviously depends heavily on the context - if it's someone forcing themselves on you, that's not what I'm talking about (come on, man, that goes without saying). I'm saying there are probably genuinely loving relationships out there that are considered illegal simply because of the age difference (like my friend's that I mentioned earlier) - there was an obvious age difference (14 and 19 or something), but they were genuinely loving of one another - it would've been incredibly cruel to have outed their relationship as pedophilia just because of the age difference and the legality of that, when the relationship so obviously was a loving one.

I have personally seen two teenage boys (that were students at the school I used to work at) that I believe were genuinely in love with one another, been torn apart by families blaming one another and the school for having "allowed" their relationship (as if that's the school's responsibility) - where yes, I genuinely believe that society's (parents) reactions were the main causer of the harm for those boys. If they had been left alone they'd been fine. And you're talking as though the act I'm talking about is a criminal offense in the first place, like there has to have been rape involved - again, that's not what I'm talking about. Kids can have consensual sex, even though it's a kind of legal gray area we don't really like to talk about.
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Your second paragraph regarding the two teenage boys is completely irrelevant unless you've missed some key context, as a member of the LGBTQ community it'd be rather odd for me to be against same sex relationships, we haven't been talking about that at all.

As respectfully as I can say it, I truly hope you're not working at a school or any position of responsibility where young people are in need of safeguarding.

Peace, love and psychedelics are great but I think you've gone to far down the rabbit hole if you've had some kid of epiphany that led you to believe sexual relations between a 14 year old and a 19 year old is a loving act and thus a positive one.

What you have been saying on this subject is deeply concerning and it is now my intention to stop posting on the subject as I don't know if it can go anywhere positive.
 
That's cool, man. I don't need to stir the pot anymore, just wanted to bring a different perspective, but quite possibly went overboard with my own agenda. I don't mean to encourage sexual relations between of age and under age kids, and I'm obviously against all kinds of abuse. It's not really a hill I'm willing to die on, I don't personally have a horse in this race, just saying we're perhaps a little quick to judge sometimes, but it's fine if you don't agree. :)
 
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K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
Do teenagers love anyone? Infatuation, Lust, Curiosity probably but Love?.
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Its an interesting question, I watched that revenge porn documentary last night and the victim was infatuated with the guy who carried out the revenge porn. She told her story about how he treated her leading up to him catching them in the act on CCTV and it was sad how infatuation manifested into naivety which then led into a shameful act. Sad really but it was all themed around reality TV and a link back from that....its a sad state of affairs TBH
 
Grays_1890 said:
Its an interesting question, I watched that revenge porn documentary last night and the victim was infatuated with the guy who carried out the revenge porn. She told her story about how he treated her leading up to him catching them in the act on CCTV and it was sad how infatuation manifested into naivety which then led into a shameful act. Sad really but it was all themed around reality TV and a link back from that....its a sad state of affairs TBH
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You didn't buy that hogwash did you?

Biggest meal ticket is to play the victim, find a way anyway, play the victim and make your money.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
You didn't buy that hogwash did you?

Biggest meal ticket is to play the victim, find a way anyway, play the victim and make your money.
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I have my views on it overall and think she was naive and I also question the motive to film the entire saga there after.

Does not get away from the fact he is an utter scumbag and we are in a era of people hero worshipping scumbags and selling their souls for it.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I have my views on it overall and think she was naive and I also question the motive to film the entire saga there after.

Does not get away from the fact he is an utter scumbag and we are in a era of people hero worshipping scumbags and selling their souls for it.
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He was filth, she was I think the term is wilfully naive.
 
glasgowspur said:
I read about this and wondered if the tongue sucking was a cultural thing, we all have different customs after all, and it had been misinterpreted.



It just seems so bizarre (apologies to any Buddhist if it is an accepted custom), and a but icky.
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I remember being on a bus in Bolivia and a local mum and toddler were playing a game where they flicked their tongues on each others.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Neither of them bummed kittle kids though. One thinks you can't change your biological gender and the other just says brick to wind up liberals and make money. Big difference to sticking your c*ck in a kid.
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Did Jackson bum them though? I thought he just enjoyed a gander at the anus?
 
Daisuk said:
That's cool, man. I don't need to stir the pot anymore, just wanted to bring a different perspective, but quite possibly went overboard with my own agenda. I don't mean to encourage sexual relations between of age and under age kids, and I'm obviously against all kinds of abuse. It's not really a hill I'm willing to die on, I don't personally have a horse in this race, just saying we're perhaps a little quick to judge sometimes, but it's fine if you don't agree. :)
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Do you have children?
 
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