• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

What kinda world do you want to live in?

I would like to live in a world without any liberals or lefties.

This, although I'd like all the major utilities and transport infrastructure to be government based. Therefore, we do not subsidise the French (look up how much EDF charges the French compared to us), all profits go back into it and we make our own (nuclear) or the very least lead the change from gas and oil dependence right now.

Ban all women from driving kids in SUVs before 9am and after 3pm.
ZERO Tolerance on drink driving. No drink at all stance. Raise speed limit to 80 and ban all distance based speed cameras.
**** going to stop now as I could go on for a couple of hours.
 
- A world with acceptable levels of income inequality. There used to be a time when CEOs rarely earned more than 30 times what their lowest-paid employees earned. Now it's likely to be hundreds if not thousands of times what their lowest-paid employee earns. Some measure of inequality is essential in order to foster innovation and enterprise, but it's gotten wildly out of control in the past twenty or so years after Reagonomics and Thatcherism came to be the basis of our Western economic systems. A return to that ratio of 30 to 1 would foster a more equal labor market, and greatly ease social tensions.

- A world where a bigger slice of businesses are employee-owned cooperatives. By allowing everyone an equal say in the running of the company and an equal slice of the profits that company earns, you reduce the stratification of the workforce and allow for there to be a greater emphasis on what an employee knows (i.e, their actual on-the-job skills) rather than the degree the employee holds (as is the case with most entrants into upper management these days). Again, this would reduce the current social tensions arising from the many, many stratified levels that exist in modern companies, each with their own pay scale and 'worth' to the company itself. I'm not saying the whole economy should be based on these cooperatives: again, having some traditional corporations around is necessary to ensure a level of consumer satisfaction arising from the cheaper/quicker/easier access to goods these companies often provide through their ability to easily expand (due to their structure). But cooperatives should make up a larger slice of the economy: say a quarter, if you include credit unions and agricultural cooperatives.

- A world where consumers are less concerned with instant self-gratification and a little more willing to make a few concessions to preserve the cohesion and relative equality of society. For example, going to your local store in rural areas instead of flocking to the nearest supermarket, or putting your money in a credit union instead of in a quick access big bank that then hands it to its own investment arm, which then fritters it away at casino banking. You may still choose to do so, of course: it's just that in this world, you would first consider the benefits trusting your local store or credit union would bring to your entire area, not just yourself, before you head to the big banks and store chains.

- A world where all major utilities (power, water, public transport) are under government control.

- A world where all nations that can afford it implement some form of Germany's social market economy model. For those unsure of what that is, it's an economic system that contains most central elements of a free market economy such as private property, free foreign trade, exchange of goods, and free formation of prices, but one where the government plays an active regulatory role, guaranteeing a social security system that includes pensions, universal healthcare, unemployment insurance, educational policies, housing policies and income distribution policies, and issuing stern regulations to combat the worst excesses of unrestrained free market economies (anti-trust codes, laws against the abuse of market power, safety laws, banking regulations, etcetera). The government funds these guarantees of social security, healthcare and pensions via an agreed-upon system of equal contributions from employers, employees and the state, plus the issuing of subsidies. There is an insistence upon strong labor-bargaining rights (statues providing for strong unions), and union members often sit on the boards of major companies to help make important decisions. Employment is easier to find thanks to the availability of the dual-education system that combines vocational training and courses right out of school, guaranteed by employing companies and monitored to strict standards by the government. Crucially, this system abhors both socialism (insisting on private ownership of the means of production) and unrestrained libertarianism (insisting on strong regulation and social support by the government): it is, in effect, a middle way.

- Crucially, a world where employees, recognizing the powers given to them by the government in the aforementioned social market model, work with their employers rather than against them, valuing hard work and loyalty to their companies over constant self-gratification through endless demands for higher wages and more benefits. A company is not merely a money-making machine: it is a social union between respectful employers and reasonable employees, working together towards a common cause, and sharing common values of relative equality and relative solidarity. The employees don't push their luck by using their strong guaranteed rights to drive employers to ruin, but equally the employers treat their employees with respect and as relative equals in the running of the company. This happens to an extent in Germany (one of the reasons they never had the union troubles that the UK did), and all the above mentioned points (relative income equality, more cooperatives, consumer awareness, the social market model) tie into this idea: that society is driven by both self-interest and solidarity, that both equality and advancement are taken into account when making decisions that affect whole groups of people. A far cry from the zero-hours contracts, easy redundancy processes and 'flexible' labour markets being pursued by the Conservatives nowadays.

- A world in which working fewer hours is not seen as a horrendously bad thing. The West is becoming more mechanized, which will inevitably lead to less work. Inevitably, as in this is inevitable, the progress of history: it cannot be stopped. Robots and computers are making production easier than ever, and granting faster access to goods than has ever been possible. And yet, because employers in the West tie lower hours to lower wages, this leads to untold tensions as workers everywhere protest the loss of their primary and secondary-industry jobs. If the social market model above existed, and crucially if (again) employers and employees saw each other as partners instead of as antagonists, then there would be more accord over the pace and scale of mechanization, and wages would not be as depressed by the cheap availability of mechanized (and offsourced) labour as they are now. The relative income equality of society would also help, as would consumers choosing what to buy (mechanized or non-mechanized, local or foreign-manufactured) , and we as a whole (the West, I mean) would learn to deal with the loss of all but service-industry jobs in a more reasoned, accepting way. We would see a 35 or 30 hour work week as not a burden or a doom upon us all, but as an opportunity to lead happier, more contented lives, doing things we were free to do, and improving our minds, while still feeling like a part of a functioning society (due to relative wage equality, government-guaranteed social security and democratic employer-employee relations). We would not view free time as the privilege of the rich or lazy, but something everyone had plenty of, and as a good thing, not as the bane of society.

- A world where Chelsea Football Club has ceased to exist.

All of the above (save for maybe the Chelsea one: they're like ****roaches, unkillable) are achievable. It requires a whole lotta organizational overhaul, a complete re-balancing of the Western way of life, and a newfound co-operation between formerly bitter enemies (employees and employers), setting aside all feelings of jealously, discrimination and greed in favour of a collective re-organization of the way we as societies function. It requires burying the remnants of 'trickle-down' Reaganomics and Thatcherism, possibly the greatest lies ever fed to us, the gullible public. It requires setting aside notions of socialism and communism that will only be achieved when we as a species overcome our limitations of greed, envy and primal competitiveness (i.e, when the singularity occurs, or when we all embrace transhumanism and augment ourselves to think on a higher level). But crucially, it can be done: it does not require a Jesus or a temporal loop or a magic wand, it only requires resolve.

I'm not holding my breath, though. ;)
 
This, liberalism is a mental disease.

Which one? Classical liberalism, which advocates free markets, strong protection for private property and small government? The foundation of the idea of the free individual? Or modern liberalism, which advocates social market economies, a role for the government in solving social and economic problems such as poverty and ill health, and a coexistence between the idea of the free individual and the idea of benefiting the nation as a whole?

If it's the first, I'm assuming you live on a commune. If it's the second, I'm assuming that you virulently hate the NHS, the National Insurance Act, the National Assistance Act, universal access to primary and secondary education, labour protection laws, minimum wage laws, racial protection laws, workplace discrimination laws, parental leave laws, standards inspection agencies, consumer protection laws, workplace safety laws, social safety nets, food stamps, and much, much more. I'm also assuming you're in favour of reinstating the Elizabethian Poor Laws and getting all those unemployed bums (some 9-15 percent of the workforce) into Correction Houses to be beaten up until they agree to work again. ;)

Look, I think I understand what you're getting at, but your assertion that a mode of thought that's basically driven human civilization over the last three hundred years (in first its classical and then its modern forms) is a disease is a ludicrous overstatement, to say the least. Unless you really do believe all those things above are wrong and should be abolished, in which case I don't think we have much common ground to debate upon.

And if you hate both forms of liberalism, then I can only assume you're a provincial lord out in West Sussex who beats his serfs, rides around in plate armor and maintains his own private castle and army. Verily, thine intentions doth shine through, and al that. :)
 
Last edited:
I want to live in a world where people show consideration to their fellow human beings and avoid doing anything that would purposefully irritate or inconvenience others. There are too many ****ers around who think only of themselves, and it's that attitude that saddens me most in today's society.
 
- A world with acceptable levels of income inequality. There used to be a time when CEOs rarely earned more than 30 times what their lowest-paid employees earned. Now it's likely to be hundreds if not thousands of times what their lowest-paid employee earns. Some measure of inequality is essential in order to foster innovation and enterprise, but it's gotten wildly out of control in the past twenty or so years after Reagonomics and Thatcherism came to be the basis of our Western economic systems. A return to that ratio of 30 to 1 would foster a more equal labor market, and greatly ease social tensions.

- A world where a bigger slice of businesses are employee-owned cooperatives. By allowing everyone an equal say in the running of the company and an equal slice of the profits that company earns, you reduce the stratification of the workforce and allow for there to be a greater emphasis on what an employee knows (i.e, their actual on-the-job skills) rather than the degree the employee holds (as is the case with most entrants into upper management these days). Again, this would reduce the current social tensions arising from the many, many stratified levels that exist in modern companies, each with their own pay scale and 'worth' to the company itself. I'm not saying the whole economy should be based on these cooperatives: again, having some traditional corporations around is necessary to ensure a level of consumer satisfaction arising from the cheaper/quicker/easier access to goods these companies often provide through their ability to easily expand (due to their structure). But cooperatives should make up a larger slice of the economy: say a quarter, if you include credit unions and agricultural cooperatives.

- A world where consumers are less concerned with instant self-gratification and a little more willing to make a few concessions to preserve the cohesion and relative equality of society. For example, going to your local store in rural areas instead of flocking to the nearest supermarket, or putting your money in a credit union instead of in a quick access big bank that then hands it to its own investment arm, which then fritters it away at casino banking. You may still choose to do so, of course: it's just that in this world, you would first consider the benefits trusting your local store or credit union would bring to your entire area, not just yourself, before you head to the big banks and store chains.

- A world where all major utilities (power, water, public transport) are under government control.

- A world where all nations that can afford it implement some form of Germany's social market economy model. For those unsure of what that is, it's an economic system that contains most central elements of a free market economy such as private property, free foreign trade, exchange of goods, and free formation of prices, but one where the government plays an active regulatory role, guaranteeing a social security system that includes pensions, universal healthcare, unemployment insurance, educational policies, housing policies and income distribution policies, and issuing stern regulations to combat the worst excesses of unrestrained free market economies (anti-trust codes, laws against the abuse of market power, safety laws, banking regulations, etcetera). The government funds these guarantees of social security, healthcare and pensions via an agreed-upon system of equal contributions from employers, employees and the state, plus the issuing of subsidies. There is an insistence upon strong labor-bargaining rights (statues providing for strong unions), and union members often sit on the boards of major companies to help make important decisions. Employment is easier to find thanks to the availability of the dual-education system that combines vocational training and courses right out of school, guaranteed by employing companies and monitored to strict standards by the government. Crucially, this system abhors both socialism (insisting on private ownership of the means of production) and unrestrained libertarianism (insisting on strong regulation and social support by the government): it is, in effect, a middle way.

- Crucially, a world where employees, recognizing the powers given to them by the government in the aforementioned social market model, work with their employers rather than against them, valuing hard work and loyalty to their companies over constant self-gratification through endless demands for higher wages and more benefits. A company is not merely a money-making machine: it is a social union between respectful employers and reasonable employees, working together towards a common cause, and sharing common values of relative equality and relative solidarity. The employees don't push their luck by using their strong guaranteed rights to drive employers to ruin, but equally the employers treat their employees with respect and as relative equals in the running of the company. This happens to an extent in Germany (one of the reasons they never had the union troubles that the UK did), and all the above mentioned points (relative income equality, more cooperatives, consumer awareness, the social market model) tie into this idea: that society is driven by both self-interest and solidarity, that both equality and advancement are taken into account when making decisions that affect whole groups of people. A far cry from the zero-hours contracts, easy redundancy processes and 'flexible' labour markets being pursued by the Conservatives nowadays.

- A world in which working fewer hours is not seen as a horrendously bad thing. The West is becoming more mechanized, which will inevitably lead to less work. Inevitably, as in this is inevitable, the progress of history: it cannot be stopped. Robots and computers are making production easier than ever, and granting faster access to goods than has ever been possible. And yet, because employers in the West tie lower hours to lower wages, this leads to untold tensions as workers everywhere protest the loss of their primary and secondary-industry jobs. If the social market model above existed, and crucially if (again) employers and employees saw each other as partners instead of as antagonists, then there would be more accord over the pace and scale of mechanization, and wages would not be as depressed by the cheap availability of mechanized (and offsourced) labour as they are now. The relative income equality of society would also help, as would consumers choosing what to buy (mechanized or non-mechanized, local or foreign-manufactured) , and we as a whole (the West, I mean) would learn to deal with the loss of all but service-industry jobs in a more reasoned, accepting way. We would see a 35 or 30 hour work week as not a burden or a doom upon us all, but as an opportunity to lead happier, more contented lives, doing things we were free to do, and improving our minds, while still feeling like a part of a functioning society (due to relative wage equality, government-guaranteed social security and democratic employer-employee relations). We would not view free time as the privilege of the rich or lazy, but something everyone had plenty of, and as a good thing, not as the bane of society.

- A world where Chelsea Football Club has ceased to exist.

All of the above (save for maybe the Chelsea one: they're like ****roaches, unkillable) are achievable. It requires a whole lotta organizational overhaul, a complete re-balancing of the Western way of life, and a newfound co-operation between formerly bitter enemies (employees and employers), setting aside all feelings of jealously, discrimination and greed in favour of a collective re-organization of the way we as societies function. It requires burying the remnants of 'trickle-down' Reaganomics and Thatcherism, possibly the greatest lies ever fed to us, the gullible public. It requires setting aside notions of socialism and communism that will only be achieved when we as a species overcome our limitations of greed, envy and primal competitiveness (i.e, when the singularity occurs, or when we all embrace transhumanism and augment ourselves to think on a higher level). But crucially, it can be done: it does not require a Jesus or a temporal loop or a magic wand, it only requires resolve.

I'm not holding my breath, though. ;)

=D>=D>=D>
 
Which one? Classical liberalism, which advocates free markets, strong protection for private property and small government? The foundation of the idea of the free individual? Or modern liberalism, which advocates social market economies, a role for the government in solving social and economic problems such as poverty and ill health, and a coexistence between the idea of the free individual and the idea of benefiting the nation as a whole?

If it's the first, I'm assuming you live on a commune. If it's the second, I'm assuming that you virulently hate the NHS, the National Insurance Act, the National Assistance Act, universal access to primary and secondary education, labour protection laws, minimum wage laws, racial protection laws, workplace discrimination laws, parental leave laws, standards inspection agencies, consumer protection laws, workplace safety laws, social safety nets, food stamps, and much, much more. I'm also assuming you're in favour of reinstating the Elizabethian Poor Laws and getting all those unemployed bums (some 9-15 percent of the workforce) into Correction Houses to be beaten up until they agree to work again. ;)

Look, I think I understand what you're getting at, but your assertion that a mode of thought that's basically driven human civilization over the last three hundred years (in first its classical and then its modern forms) is a disease is a ludicrous overstatement, to say the least. Unless you really do believe all those things above are wrong and should be abolished, in which case I don't think we have much common ground to debate upon.

And if you hate both forms of liberalism, then I can only assume you're a provincial lord out in West Sussex who beats his serfs, rides around in plate armor and maintains his own private castle and army. Verily, thine intentions doth shine through, and al that. :)

Hahaha! Exactly, the invention of liberalism led to the industrial revolution, universal sufrage, rights being laid down for all human beings, the (supposed, if you believe in it that is) ability to choose what line of work you want to do, what you want to aim for in life rather than have it pre-determined at birth.

Hitler despised Liberalism.

Stalin despised Liberalism.

Saddam Huessein despised Liberalism.

Mao despised Liberalism.

Pal-Pot despised Liberalism.

I'm sure you get the point!
 
Hahaha! Exactly, the invention of liberalism led to the industrial revolution, universal sufrage, rights being laid down for all human beings, the (supposed, if you believe in it that is) ability to choose what line of work you want to do, what you want to aim for in life rather than have it pre-determined at birth.

Hitler despised Liberalism.

Stalin despised Liberalism.

Saddam Huessein despised Liberalism.

Mao despised Liberalism.

Pal-Pot despised Liberalism.

I'm sure you get the point!

I think you're a little confused.

You only need to read a handful of his posts to realise that he has nothing against traditional, laissez faire, economic liberalism - the thing that did so much good for the world.

He clearly means modern liberalism which is essentially just a lack of understanding of economics.
 
View attachment 1677

You should read Mein Kampf, Hitler says that a lot. Rants about it quite a bit. I'm sure you'd appreciate it.

Much of Hitler's pre-war economic policy was based on that of the left.

Protectionism, jobs invented by the state, government controlled prices, huge deficits, etc. Around 1935-1936, Hitler started to move some of this investment to the private sector (with state subsidies) but eventually relented to what much of his party wanted and fell back into the state-controlled policies of the previous few years.
 
I think you're a little confused.

You only need to read a handful of his posts to realise that he has nothing against traditional, laissez faire, economic liberalism - the thing that did so much good for the world.

He clearly means modern liberalism which is essentially just a lack of understanding of economics.

I think basing anything purely on economics is a macaronic idea, coming from someone who did study it a fair bit at university. The homo economicus model has several flaws, none of which are adequately addressed by economists themselves. Economics presumes that we are always self-interested, utility-maximising, rational actors, who are fully informed of the benefits and risks of every action we take. Considering that we're dealing with human beings, not abstract perfect theoretical models, these are pretty big (and untrue) assumptions to make. Economic anthropologists have effectively proven that traditional societies were based on kinship-based reciprocity, i.e where things are done with no immediate reward because of the inherent trust placed in a fellow member of a traditional society based on his kinship to the actor. This flies in the face of the self-interested man implicit in modern economic evolutionary models. Similarly, presuming a man to always be informed of his choices and courses of action is just wrong, considering that most people do not understand the intricacies of macro-economics or economic decision making while carrying out their daily activities, and a level of uncertainty and risk is inherent in the decision-making of normal people that economics fails to adequately explain. Using the same logic, sometimes even people possessed of sound economic knowledge and of knowledge of the consequences of their actions still stick to uneconomic behaviour due to a number of things: laziness, obedience, habit, following the crowd. This is also a puzzling development, as is the growing irrationality of people's choices based on wildly differing psychological traits: valuing short-term gain over long-term gain (or vice versa) even if the latter is superior to the former, or letting anger, fear, depression or emotion decide what should be purely economic considerations.

Overall, humans are complex beings, driven by a lot more than just self-interest and rationality. We're by turns stupid, caring, greedy, lazy, irrational, emotional, smart, and cooperative, and to an extent dealing with all these facets of human nature is a problem that the old homo economicus model has yet to overcome, which casts considerable doubt over the discipline itself.

There is a place for economics in politics, but it should never, ever be the overarching consideration. Neither should ideology. Politics should be about making the greatest number happy at the least cost, and whatever policy achieves that end effectively should be considered 'right' to pursue. Personally, I find the onset of modern liberalism inevitable: the 'free market' has shown its failings time and again to developed societies. Don't get me wrong, free market capitalism is a great thing for societies emerging in the third or second worlds: despite all the inequality it fosters, unhindered capitalism has admittedly lifted hundreds of millions out of poverty, an achievement that should not be undervalued. But in developed societies, the unrestrained free market too often fosters inequality, social damage and ultimately the irrelevance of the nation state itself as money moves offshore to tax havens, global markets capriciously play around with national currencies and multi-national corporations supersede entire local economies. Modern liberalism offers us a solution out of the selfish 'every man for himself' dogma that free markets pursue at all costs: an idea of a fairer, more equal world, with certain rights and guarantees afforded to all. And like it or not, that is what is appealing to more and more people nowadays, as the recent flurry of polling disasters hitting the Republican Party in the wake of their failed attempt to take on Obamacare shows. A government that guarantees healthcare, pensions, social security, equal opportunity, workplace safety, affordable housing, parental protection.....this is what the world now aspires to in one form or another. And this renaissance of modern liberalism will only grow as more and more people find themselves working lower hours and for lower wages as jobs (and indeed, the world's lower-end industrial focus) shift to India and China. The more unemployment you have, the more frequent your recessions, the more unrestrained your banks, 'flexible' labour markets and wealthy segments of society become, the more social unrest grows as people see that what was guaranteed to them by modern liberalism is not being provided for by the 'free market', and they begin hankering for the old ideals again, which they see as guaranteed to them because of their supposedly 'first-world' status. Why should the workers of the UK have to be as flexible as those from India or China? they grew accustomed to having cars, housing and healthcare a long time ago, in keeping with the world economic balance. Now, while a family in India or China may be delighted with their first car or their first home, telling a worker in the UK that they have to give up everything they had before if they want to compete with these new hotspots (As the globalized free market demands, with its constantly shifting production bases) is ludicrous and entirely unachievable. Once you give people a taste of something better, fairer,more equal, they won't go back to the old ways without a fight.

So, modern liberalism is here to stay. And if you assume it's a 'disease', then it's a Western pandemic that affects nearly everyone to some degree, including you oh-so-righteous people on the right who use the NHS, or the social security service, or are protected by the many ,many laws passed to protect you from the worst excesses of unfettered capitalism (workplace safety, consumer protection, the list goes on). And the more primary and secondary industry jobs are lost to China and India, the more people hanker for some form of security from the ravages of unemployment, disease and an old age without savings or a home. The only question is how to pay for it: one thing you right-wingers are right about is that it costs a lot of money to maintain a modern liberal state. A welfare state provided purely by the government is a route to disaster (Western populations are having less kids and growing older, which will inevitably overload the system at some point), but there is no reason a social market economy organized along the lines of Germany's model cannot work. Equal contributions from employer, employee and the government towards social security, healthcare, pensions, etcetera would cost a lot less than the government alone funding everything. But crucially, this relies on employees and employers trusting each other, and everyone in society having the good of society as a whole in their minds as equally important as the good of their own situations individually. It requires a new way of thinking for everyone involved in the current Western economic system. Germany didn't have to face this problem because they essentially started from scratch and could build consensus easily: the UK, on the other hand, suffered from first over-powerful employees and then over-powerful companies, making both sides bitterly distrustful of each other and making it very, very difficult to have the sort of systems a social market model needs (strong unions, strong vocational training options, strong company-employee relations, strong labor laws, strong market regulation, etcetera). Thus, it requires a complete do-over.

For ideas on what that would look like, see above (my previous long-**** post). For what we need to carry it out regardless, see resolve.
 
Last edited:
We're going down this alley again? Clearly, human beings aren't very good at agreeing on things, definitely not agreeing on the "best solutions" or even what the best solutions should be for. I don't think we'll see any radical difference in world policies before crisis upon crisis are heaped upon the leaders in this world. Only then will they be forced to do something useful with the power they have. We'll see, it'll come. I predict chaos, hah.

This isn't about left vs right, if you're still debating that thing, you're stuck in the 20th century.
 
Back