Welcome Ange: To Dare is to Didgeridoo

[braineclipse]

Oh boy....can we start talking about the things that have been happening on the actual pitch??

Can anyone explain why we have progressively looked worse since January (when generally the number of injuries has reduced compared to the autumn)? In particular, why have we mostly looked worse the more time we've had between games?

Is there any previous precedent we've seen this for a manager in their first year that ending up being successful (either with us or other clubs)?

I worry that this is he reverse of what would be expected if a mangers methods were a) effective long-term and b) being gotten used to/absorbed by the playing squad.

I'd love a constructive conversation about this please.

There was a link and some conversation a few pages back (may have been the Ange system thread) about a pretty usual thing being a phase of improvement, a phase where the progress stops or the team struggles before more progress happens. May interest you.

I think there's a lot to this. Form of individual players, opponents adapting more and better. Perhaps some squad players realising they won't be along for long not being quite as dedicated.

Then there's also the struggles at set pieces combined with a bit of bad luck leading to worse results and confidence issues.

I think inconsistency is to be expected at this stage. There are foundations in our game that to me seem really should to build on. The way we press, the way we build from the back and (mostly) play through the middle third. The way we create chances outside of against a solid established low or mid block.

I think further improvements on the things that aren't working, or aren't working consistently will be accelerated quite a bit by a handful of good signings, a clear out and another preseason. Preseason will obviously happen, as will a clear out I believe. If we can match our success with signings to what we've done recently I think we'll be really good come the start of next season.

 

[Raziel]

Oh boy....can we start talking about the things that have been happening on the actual pitch??

Can anyone explain why we have progressively looked worse since January (when generally the number of injuries has reduced compared to the autumn)? In particular, why have we mostly looked worse the more time we've had between games?

Is there any previous precedent we've seen this for a manager in their first year that ending up being successful (either with us or other clubs)?

I worry that this is he reverse of what would be expected if a mangers methods were a) effective long-term and b) being gotten used to/absorbed by the playing squad.

I'd love a constructive conversation about this please.

Happy to (it's not as bad as you think), broadly I'll put it down to a few things and some Ange, some not

Very little to do with Ange

- The injuries broke rhythm, confidence team had earlier in season
- Two many young/inexperienced in PL players meant inevitable drop in form at some point, see Sarr, Udogie (still good but not the early season level), even VDV (almost perfect season but Chelsea game)
- The injuries that were 2nd half still hurt, Richi, Werner, Udogie, Bissouma, even if it's making the bench deeper
- Deki & Bissouma's football falling off a cliff

To do with Ange

- Opponents adapting to us, countering (1:1 marking, targeting Vicario, target far side attacks)
- Persistence with players out of form (really my main gripe of this season), PEH & Lo Celso should have seen way more game time
- Overcomplicating the final phase (we try to walk the ball in, all the time), it allows teams to drop back/deep, more shots from outside will force defenders/midfielders to come out and leave more space behind. Porro the only exception

In reality

- 5th is an achievement not a single pundit/person outside Spurs expected at start of season
- We outplay teams (this is fudging massive and gets missed all the time), City fudging struggled in that first 50 minutes, players like KYB, Haaland, Foden could get/hold on to the ball. And we have done this for periods against everyone. This is why I don't worry about us or sides like Villa (they do the mid block, high line, counter brick, they don't try to be the best team)
- We are a system side now, that requires time & the right players for consistency. Ange will end up with more points (and better position?) that Klopp or Arteta in their first season (and they took over sides in a better place)

 

[Grays_1890]

Happy to (it's not as bad as you think), broadly I'll put it down to a few things and some Ange, some not

Very little to do with Ange

- The injuries broke rhythm, confidence team had earlier in season
- Two many young/inexperienced in PL players meant inevitable drop in form at some point, see Sarr, Udogie (still good but not the early season level), even VDV (almost perfect season but Chelsea game)
- The injuries that were 2nd half still hurt, Richi, Werner, Udogie, Bissouma, even if it's making the bench deeper
- Deki & Bissouma's football falling off a cliff

To do with Ange

- Opponents adapting to us, countering (1:1 marking, targeting Vicario, target far side attacks)
- Persistence with players out of form (really my main gripe of this season), PEH & Lo Celso should have seen way more game time
- Overcomplicating the final phase (we try to walk the ball in, all the time), it allows teams to drop back/deep, more shots from outside will force defenders/midfielders to come out and leave more space behind. Porro the only exception

In reality

- 5th is an achievement not a single pundit/person outside Spurs expected at start of season
- We outplay teams (this is fudging massive and gets missed all the time), City fudging struggled in that first 50 minutes, players like KYB, Haaland, Foden could get/hold on to the ball. And we have done this for periods against everyone. This is why I don't worry about us or sides like Villa (they do the mid block, high line, counter brick, they don't try to be the best team)
- We are a system side now, that requires time & the right players for consistency. Ange will end up with more points (and better position?) that Klopp or Arteta in their first season (and they took over sides in a better place)

Yeh this sums up my thoughts

Ultimately I would say we have run out of steam on progress to be made based on reliance on those that can (added to their drop in form....Madders etc) and using players who don't have a future. I read the article which I think was posted on here that it actually trends like most other clubs who are now better, in their first season.

I think it's under appreciated how hard its been navigating the season without having a striker available for 40% of it, alot of what we do is taking chances or advantage of attacking intent, not having a number 9 available for large chunks puts a spanner in the work we do, you hammer home the % advantage we have been having and the rest becomes easier. I expect that addressed in the summer

Additionally I thought our early 2024 was pretty fair, it's hit the skids massively with games against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project, which many of us expected it to, so maybe the panic on form is being over played,l slightly

You have to think that come summer and the addition of some new faces and brains along with a freshen up in pre season we wil be alot better.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Happy to (it's not as bad as you think), broadly I'll put it down to a few things and some Ange, some not

Very little to do with Ange

- The injuries broke rhythm, confidence team had earlier in season
- Two many young/inexperienced in PL players meant inevitable drop in form at some point, see Sarr, Udogie (still good but not the early season level), even VDV (almost perfect season but Chelsea game)
- The injuries that were 2nd half still hurt, Richi, Werner, Udogie, Bissouma, even if it's making the bench deeper
- Deki & Bissouma's football falling off a cliff

To do with Ange

- Opponents adapting to us, countering (1:1 marking, targeting Vicario, target far side attacks)
- Persistence with players out of form (really my main gripe of this season), PEH & Lo Celso should have seen way more game time
- Overcomplicating the final phase (we try to walk the ball in, all the time), it allows teams to drop back/deep, more shots from outside will force defenders/midfielders to come out and leave more space behind. Porro the only exception

In reality

- 5th is an achievement not a single pundit/person outside Spurs expected at start of season
- We outplay teams (this is fudging massive and gets missed all the time), City fudging struggled in that first 50 minutes, players like KYB, Haaland, Foden could get/hold on to the ball. And we have done this for periods against everyone. This is why I don't worry about us or sides like Villa (they do the mid block, high line, counter brick, they don't try to be the best team)
- We are a system side now, that requires time & the right players for consistency. Ange will end up with more points (and better position?) that Klopp or Arteta in their first season (and they took over sides in a better place)

Appreciate the detailed response.

I'd disagree slightly with the "outplaying teams" bit. I have to say a lot of that since January imo has been more and more "empty possession" in that apart from a few team we are having a lot of the ball but with very little penetration, i.e. they sit back on us to allow us have possession seemingly knowing that we will give it up at some point and they then have chances to advance on us if hey have the pace. City being one of the obvious exceptions because being in possession at all times is so important to them.
When VDV returned i thought we'd be much less vulnerable to this but my worry has been that it hasn't changed the number of big quality chances we give up. In fact the number of big chances given up increased, even though we had our first choice CB pairing...

It is good to generally be on the front foot, but i would also want some pragmatism at times: no harm in US sitting deep and allowing he opposition have the ball and look to press them deeper and hit THEM on the break: i think the last time is saw us revert to this was the second half at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I thought we were both more solid doing that AND vey effective.
I also think doing that at times means we can take a breather in matches and across the season as a whole, potentially a) making us fresher for longer in a campaign b) potentially less injuries (i wonder if the pressing game of Ange has taken its toll on the squad this season after the less front-foot methods of our last few coaches).

I do wonder of Ange's system needs a dribbler in CM areas as well as out wide...

Interesting summer ahead. I hope we see a good performance vs Sheffield United AND A CLEAN SHEET.

 

[Raziel]

Appreciate the detailed response.

I'd disagree slightly with the "outplaying teams" bit. I have to say a lot of that since January imo has been more and more "empty possession" in that apart from a few team we are having a lot of the ball but with very little penetration, i.e. they sit back on us to allow us have possession seemingly knowing that we will give it up at some point and they then have chances to advance on us if hey have the pace. City being one of the obvious exceptions because being in possession at all times is so important to them.
When VDV returned i thought we'd be much less vulnerable to this but my worry has been that it hasn't changed the number of big quality chances we give up. In fact the number of big chances given up increased, even though we had our first choice CB pairing...

It is good to generally be on the front foot, but i would also want some pragmatism at times: no harm in US sitting deep and allowing he opposition have the ball and look to press them deeper and hit THEM on the break: i think the last time is saw us revert to this was the second half at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I thought we were both more solid doing that AND vey effective.
I also think doing that at times means we can take a breather in matches and across the season as a whole, potentially a) making us fresher for longer in a campaign b) potentially less injuries (i wonder if the pressing game of Ange has taken its toll on the squad this season after the less front-foot methods of our last few coaches).

I do wonder of Ange's system needs a dribbler in CM areas as well as out wide...

Interesting summer ahead. I hope we see a good performance vs Sheffield United AND A CLEAN SHEET.

A few thoughts

- We do outplay teams, just not consistently for 90 mins, lets be clear, City, Arsenal & Pool do not willingly give up the ball, yet we consistently out possessed them for long periods in games (and yes, there is an issue with translating that to threat but the base is there)
- We have on a couple of occasions made slight adjustments (City game was more obvious than most) tactically, I think people think Ange's is 4-3-3 and that's it, it's both a little more complicated and a little more simple

To your point, we need someone that breaks the lines in CM, either via passing or carrying the ball

The other piece I didn't mention earlier is (and this may be counter to common sense), I actually think the lack of cup games hurt us, it meant bench players didn't have match fitness, it meant as a side we had less games to get the system bedded in. This season with the injuries all at once it would have been a problem but the weeks between games didn't seem to help us with Ange (where as with someone like Conte where it was robot tactics, I think time between games helped)

 

[fernadez]

There was a link and some conversation a few pages back (may have been the Ange system thread) about a pretty usual thing being a phase of improvement, a phase where the progress stops or the team struggles before more progress happens. May interest you.

I think there's a lot to this. Form of individual players, opponents adapting more and better. Perhaps some squad players realising they won't be along for long not being quite as dedicated.

Then there's also the struggles at set pieces combined with a bit of bad luck leading to worse results and confidence issues.

I think inconsistency is to be expected at this stage. There are foundations in our game that to me seem really should to build on. The way we press, the way we build from the back and (mostly) play through the middle third. The way we create chances outside of against a solid established low or mid block.

I think further improvements on the things that aren't working, or aren't working consistently will be accelerated quite a bit by a handful of good signings, a clear out and another preseason. Preseason will obviously happen, as will a clear out I believe. If we can match our success with signings to what we've done recently I think we'll be really good come the start of next season.

Might have been my post you're referring to. Idea is is that there three phases to learning.

As the system becomes inbedded and understood players are thinking about what to do rather than just doing it. The result of this is everything looking slow and laborious. When you learn a new skill you go through the same process, fluke it well for a while, then start thinking about what you're doing and become slower/worse as you practice it.

Final phase is that it becomes embedded and automated and you don't expel any energy thinking about it, you just do it. After learning to drive car you swtich off and just do it, you're not even aware you're changing gears, breaking at traffic lights, slowing down when the car ahead breaks etc.

The most interesing bit for me is that we went through the same thing with Conte and Jose to an extent and then go cold feet. Arsenal would have got rid of Arteta if not for covid. So you see it through and then find out if the managers tactics are actually good enough to win with.

 

[Grays_1890]

Might have been my post you're referring to. Idea is is that there three phases to learning.

As the system becomes inbedded and understood players are thinking about what to do rather than just doing it. The result of this is everything looking slow and laborious. When you learn a new skill you go through the same process, fluke it well for a while, then start thinking about what you're doing and become slower/worse as you practice it.

Final phase is that it becomes embedded and automated and you don't expel any energy thinking about it, you just do it. After learning to drive car you swtich off and just do it, you're not even aware you're changing gears, breaking at traffic lights, slowing down when the car ahead breaks etc.

The most interesing bit for me is that we went through the same thing with Conte and Jose to an extent and then go cold feet. Arsenal would have got rid of Arteta if not for covid. So you see it through and then find out if the managers tactics are actually good enough to win with.

Also no one is infallible to poor form and bad results. I had a blimp at Villa results and in second season and fair investment they have lost to Saudi Sportswashing Machine, City, United and a few others, like us, but spread out rather than concentrated like.our results, they also took one hell of a beating in Europe against a side they were favourites to beat, especially at home. Emery is being heralded a genius though and we are what 2 wins behind the grade they set.

Our poor forms come in a clump and players forms dropped off in more numbers than we would have liked, but we are not the two headed freak being made out IMO

 

[billyiddo]

Might have been my post you're referring to. Idea is is that there three phases to learning.

As the system becomes inbedded and understood players are thinking about what to do rather than just doing it. The result of this is everything looking slow and laborious. When you learn a new skill you go through the same process, fluke it well for a while, then start thinking about what you're doing and become slower/worse as you practice it.

Final phase is that it becomes embedded and automated and you don't expel any energy thinking about it, you just do it. After learning to drive car you swtich off and just do it, you're not even aware you're changing gears, breaking at traffic lights, slowing down when the car ahead breaks etc.

The most interesing bit for me is that we went through the same thing with Conte and Jose to an extent and then go cold feet. Arsenal would have got rid of Arteta if not for covid. So you see it through and then find out if the managers tactics are actually good enough to win with.

Thanks for this post and the one previous that you are refering to as i had never really considered that before.

 

[fernadez]

Thanks for this post and the one previous that you are refering to as i had never really considered that before.

It's an widely acepted sequence in the learning process. Also part of this is that you can only ever really learn by failing. The failing is what provides the stimulus to correct and refine. So it's not optional and you can't go from being rubbish at something to being great. Learning anything is just a system of repeated failiures which become less and less over time. This is all under the caveat of having foccused/structed learning that identifies the mistakes.

The key is to have the goals attainable but just slightly beyond your skillset. In this instance I guess we'll get rid of player who's skillset is too far the level we need, and who's approach to learning isn't in sync with development. Those who remain will continue to practice, learn and ultimate fail less until those 10-15 minute periods are 30 min periods and full games.

Then we'll see what is what.

The best recent example really is Arsenal from Arteta's arrival. Shipped players out, new ones in. Went from crap to less crap to good. What is also interesting is that he himself has undertook this process and is a lot more flexible now, making comprimises to win games. Whether Ange will is going to be interesting.

 

[Jurgen the German]

All I'll say is that as Spurs supporters, wanting us to win matches has to be easier to understand in general than not wanting us to win football matches (I appreciate there is added context in this situation but the point remains clear I think)...

Easier to understand maybe but I also can’t understand why so many can’t see our point of view. Very unique set of circumstances that hopefully never happens again, but like I said, I don’t get how/why some can’t see why we didn’t want to do our rivals a massive favour.

 

[braineclipse]

It's an widely acepted sequence in the learning process. Also part of this is that you can only ever really learn by failing. The failing is what provides the stimulus to correct and refine. So it's not optional and you can't go from being rubbish at something to being great. Learning anything is just a system of repeated failiures which become less and less over time. This is all under the caveat of having foccused/structed learning that identifies the mistakes.

The key is to have the goals attainable but just slightly beyond your skillset. In this instance I guess we'll get rid of player who's skillset is too far the level we need, and who's approach to learning isn't in sync with development. Those who remain will continue to practice, learn and ultimate fail less until those 10-15 minute periods are 30 min periods and full games.

Then we'll see what is what.

The best recent example really is Arsenal from Arteta's arrival. Shipped players out, new ones in. Went from crap to less crap to good. What is also interesting is that he himself has undertook this process and is a lot more flexible now, making comprimises to win games. Whether Ange will is going to be interesting.

Cheers for both this and the previous post. Interesting stuff.

On the flexibility I think there's also a time thing. You have to learn how to do it properly before you work out how and when to deviate from the plan. Potentially allowing the manager more flexibility in the approach as the fundamentals of the base system is properly ingrained.

If you start being flexible before the system is properly ingrained it doesn't become an automation you can switch in and out of flexibly.

This too I think is valid for a lot of learning processes across different disciplines and something most of us realise about stuff we're reasonably good at.

Can perhaps also partly explain the middle phase to some extent? The players have to adapt more to opponents being more prepared and adapted, the system becomes more complex and there's more to learn and more room for failure. Whereas at first they're learning a somewhat simplified version without tweaks, changes and flexibility.

 

[Lemonade Money]

It's an widely acepted sequence in the learning process. Also part of this is that you can only ever really learn by failing. The failing is what provides the stimulus to correct and refine. So it's not optional and you can't go from being rubbish at something to being great. Learning anything is just a system of repeated failiures which become less and less over time. This is all under the caveat of having foccused/structed learning that identifies the mistakes.

The key is to have the goals attainable but just slightly beyond your skillset. In this instance I guess we'll get rid of player who's skillset is too far the level we need, and who's approach to learning isn't in sync with development. Those who remain will continue to practice, learn and ultimate fail less until those 10-15 minute periods are 30 min periods and full games.

Then we'll see what is what.

The best recent example really is Arsenal from Arteta's arrival. Shipped players out, new ones in. Went from crap to less crap to good. What is also interesting is that he himself has undertook this process and is a lot more flexible now, making comprimises to win games. Whether Ange will is going to be interesting.

Our early season form showed that we had a lot of players who can attain those goals, that people are now saying we should get rid of. Summer window will certainly be interesting.

 

[GGyid]

Appreciate the detailed response.

I'd disagree slightly with the "outplaying teams" bit. I have to say a lot of that since January imo has been more and more "empty possession" in that apart from a few team we are having a lot of the ball but with very little penetration, i.e. they sit back on us to allow us have possession seemingly knowing that we will give it up at some point and they then have chances to advance on us if hey have the pace. City being one of the obvious exceptions because being in possession at all times is so important to them.
When VDV returned i thought we'd be much less vulnerable to this but my worry has been that it hasn't changed the number of big quality chances we give up. In fact the number of big chances given up increased, even though we had our first choice CB pairing...

It is good to generally be on the front foot, but i would also want some pragmatism at times: no harm in US sitting deep and allowing he opposition have the ball and look to press them deeper and hit THEM on the break: i think the last time is saw us revert to this was the second half at home to Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I thought we were both more solid doing that AND vey effective.
I also think doing that at times means we can take a breather in matches and across the season as a whole, potentially a) making us fresher for longer in a campaign b) potentially less injuries (i wonder if the pressing game of Ange has taken its toll on the squad this season after the less front-foot methods of our last few coaches).

I do wonder of Ange's system needs a dribbler in CM areas as well as out wide...

Interesting summer ahead. I hope we see a good performance vs Sheffield United AND A CLEAN SHEET.

A quality DM will go a long way to resolving this. (a la Victor Wanayma)

 

[braineclipse]

Our early season form showed that we had a lot of players who can attain those goals, that people are now saying we should get rid of. Summer window will certainly be interesting.

Interesting for sure.

Would be interesting to know what is discussed behind closed doors. What Ange is currently thinking.

Wile I get your point that some have shown that ability, some have also shown a lack of ability to do that consistently. But mostly the core of that really season good form team i assume will stay, and most of them as starters. But I also think there's a need for some difficult decisions.

A quality DM will go a long way to resolving this. (a la Victor Wanayma)

Think we need someone even better than Wanyama on the ball. Tough a Wanyama type physical and defensive presence would do a lot for us and probably also help us on defending set pieces.

 

[parklane1]

All I'll say is that as Spurs supporters, wanting us to win matches has to be easier to understand in general than not wanting us to win football matches (I appreciate there is added context in this situation but the point remains clear I think)...

I agree.

 

[Robbo]

For what it's worth in this debate; Spurs fans are not unique - from ESPN, but this is shared widely among Arse fans, who use it to ridicule us.


Edit: Yes, I know it's on a different level to the City game, but shows that football fans generally finds joy in the failure of their rivals. It's not just Spurs.

 

[Robspur12]

I wasn't supporting us to win the match last night, but i was supporting the outcome that i believed to better all things considered.

Being a football supporter/fan isn't isolated to the 90 minutes a match is being played.

Well put Bill as usual.

 

[Aldo]

For what it's worth in this debate; Spurs fans are not unique - from ESPN, but this is shared widely among Arse fans, who use it to ridicule us.

View attachment 17169
Edit: Yes, I know it's on a different level to the City game, but shows that football fans generally finds joy in the failure of their rivals. It's not just Spurs.

If Woolwich fans are indeed using that stat it's quite an own goal. Those 6 points cost them way more than they cost us.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Cheers for both this and the previous post. Interesting stuff.

On the flexibility I think there's also a time thing. You have to learn how to do it properly before you work out how and when to deviate from the plan. Potentially allowing the manager more flexibility in the approach as the fundamentals of the base system is properly ingrained.

If you start being flexible before the system is properly ingrained it doesn't become an automation you can switch in and out of flexibly.

This too I think is valid for a lot of learning processes across different disciplines and something most of us realise about stuff we're reasonably good at.

Can perhaps also partly explain the middle phase to some extent? The players have to adapt more to opponents being more prepared and adapted, the system becomes more complex and there's more to learn and more room for failure. Whereas at first they're learning a somewhat simplified version without tweaks, changes and flexibility.

I share your sentiment on this. On a slightly broader perspective, we (as human beings) tend to look for a single explanation/reason when something goes wrong when, in fact, it's more often than not a combination of many little things that put together, produce a certain outcome.

Maybe it's the loss of momentum after the Chelsea, some players becoming desillusioned for one reason or another, others failing to recapture their form after an injury, others yet getting tired over the course of the season, maybe something was off with the coaching, other teams knew what to expect from us, etc.

Hopefully, we won't see a huge turnover in the squad over the summer. As said earlier, a lot of these players have proven themselves in the first third of the season and, if their heart's still in it, I'd rather see more tactical flexibility than getting back to square one and implenting the whole thing all over again.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's an widely acepted sequence in the learning process. Also part of this is that you can only ever really learn by failing. The failing is what provides the stimulus to correct and refine. So it's not optional and you can't go from being rubbish at something to being great. Learning anything is just a system of repeated failiures which become less and less over time. This is all under the caveat of having foccused/structed learning that identifies the mistakes.

The key is to have the goals attainable but just slightly beyond your skillset. In this instance I guess we'll get rid of player who's skillset is too far the level we need, and who's approach to learning isn't in sync with development. Those who remain will continue to practice, learn and ultimate fail less until those 10-15 minute periods are 30 min periods and full games.

Then we'll see what is what.

The best recent example really is Arsenal from Arteta's arrival. Shipped players out, new ones in. Went from crap to less crap to good. What is also interesting is that he himself has undertook this process and is a lot more flexible now, making comprimises to win games. Whether Ange will is going to be interesting.

It also why when people bang on about 'no plan B' and 'change it up', in the context of learning a system, to do that would undermine faith and belief in what is being 'taught'. I think he's been pretty clear on that point, but more and more I think people are either listening to him or only hearing what they want to hear.