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Tottenham vs The Scum

DTA said:
Of course there are mullahs spouting hateful shît, just like there is pastors who also spout hateful shît, along with a whole host of non religious people who spout hateful shït. Call them all out on it, you will get no argument from me.

Just don't conflate spouting hateful shït exclusively with "the muslims" as there is no one "the muslims"

Now do you get what I'm saying?

Where did you see sharia law by the way?
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Hateful brick vs World domination agenda and ordering fatwas quoting the quran and ordering to kill ... seriously show me a priest / preacher conveying that message that has got a country moving in that direction in modern times in the name of their religion.

If there was any such thing in say England, people would protest to the government and protest to remove jail etc. Vs countries like Egypt, Saudi etc where the general consensus of people just get on with their daily lives.

I think you know there are NO other countries where the majority do not protest against such terrible shouty pointy people.

I dont know any religious leader of a religion who has kept slaves, butchered the likes of the entire the Banu Qurayza tribe, even after they surrendered.

Ok let's end this and return to football because I can bring the text and hadiths to the forum also.

By the way I do not hate Muslims, I don't agree with the ideology. I am allowed to have my views and thoughts. Thank fudge we live in the west and have freedom of speech.

And to answer your country, Saudi, Pakistan, Iran
 
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Gazza said:
Hateful brick vs World domination agenda and ordering fatwas quoting the quran and ordering to kill ... seriously show me a priest / preacher conveying that message that has got a country moving in that direction in modern times in the name of their religion.

If there was any such thing in say England, people would protest to the government and protest to remove jail etc. Vs countries like Egypt, Saudi etc where the general consensus of people just get on with their daily lives.

I think you know there are NO other countries where the majority do not protest against such terrible shouty pointy people.

I dont know any religious leader of a religion who has kept slaves, butchered the likes of the entire the Banu Qurayza tribe, even after they surrendered.

Ok let's end this and return to football because I can bring the text and hadiths to the forum also.

By the way I do not hate Muslims, I don't agree with the ideology. I am allowed to have my views and thoughts. Thank fudge we live in the west and have freedom of speech.

And to answer your country, Saudi, Pakistan, Iran
Click to expand...

Still doubling down I see.

Ok let's continue.

You asked for a Christian group from modern times, just from the top of my head I will give you "the Lords resistance army" they killed between 2000 and 3000 people and displaced over 350,000. Also kidnapped and used child soldiers (slaves)

There is of course the Bosnian genocide committed by orthodox Christian Serbs. Whom were very successful at attracting volunteers from other orthodox Christian followers

I'm sure if I researched it I could find more.

Will that do for you? Or will you double down again?

I do not think for one second think that these people represent Christianity. Something that you seem incapable of doing in terms of "the muslims"

As for the texts and hadiths do your thing. But for your education many of the hadiths are disputed or outright rejected by some of "the muslims".... because.... again, and I'm getting tired of saying this to you... but there is no one monolithic "the muslims"

I will wait with baited breath for your next attempt at doubling down.

And yes thankfully you live in the UK where you can have those opinions. And thankfully I live in the UK where I can call out your ignorance and narrow mindedness.

I will ask again where did you experience Sharia law?
 
thfcsteff said:
The thing is, I never ever read criticisms of extremes in other faiths/religions here. A passing comment about how it is 'all brick' and that sort of thing, but when it comes to specifics, well, I haven't seen it. Why might that be?
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Maybe not in this thread, but I have seen plenty of derision of Christianity. Stating the obvious but they are the two most prominent religions in the world. Personally, I think all religions are misguided and I don’t see why people need it in 2021 but I guess it gives people comfort. Religion to me just doesn’t stack up against science. Looking to religion or some form of GHod when our ancestors didn’t know where the sun went at night or why the crops died was perfectly understandable hundreds and thousands of years ago.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Maybe not in this thread, but I have seen plenty of derision of Christianity. Stating the obvious but they are the two most prominent religions in the world. Personally, I think all religions are misguided and I don’t see why people need it in 2021 but I guess it gives people comfort. Religion to me just doesn’t stack up against science. Looking to religion or some form of GHod when our ancestors didn’t know where the sun went at night or why the crops died was perfectly understandable hundreds and thousands of years ago.
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Right. I don't necessarily disagree. But that is not really what is being discussed here. At least not to my eye.

It is pretty clear to me that there are some people who judge all of Islam/muslims by sharia extremes whereas they do not judge Christianity by the Christian Fundamentalist/Old Testament. To be clear, neither religion should be judged by the extreme element of their respective texts.
 
Gazza said:
Ok let's end this and return to football because I can bring the text and hadiths to the forum also.
Click to expand...

Dude if you want to do this then do it with some intellectual and academic integrity and don't copy and paste translations from an anti Islam site. Please provide the Quran verse references and the ones for all the Hadiths you will quote. Otherwise we are relying on a translation taken from a detractor from a language most on here do not understand.

And then just mere Quran and Hadith texts have only a connection to the theology and jurisprudence of the belief system.

The Quran is considered revelation but many of the texts are allegorical and have wildly different interpretations depending on which jurist or theologian you have decided to understand from.

Hadith are just 100'000s of narrations that vary in authenticity across numerous collections and many are not worth anything.

The theology is derived from consensus amongst theologians on individual points of belief.

Jurisprudence is derived from various sources. Quran and Hadith are just sources. They are not the legislation. The legislation is derived by text, analogy, consensus and rational reasoning. And then these are spread amongst 5 major juristic schools that differ on many issues.

If you want to come and tell me about the religion I've known and studied for decades then you are welcome to but not with some copy and paste BS from an anti Islam website. I want to know what you have actually gone and learned and verified otherwise there is no value in this conversation.
 
DTA said:
Still doubling down I see.

Ok let's continue.

You asked for a Christian group from modern times, just from the top of my head I will give you "the Lords resistance army" they killed between 2000 and 3000 people and displaced over 350,000. Also kidnapped and used child soldiers (slaves)

There is of course the Bosnian genocide committed by orthodox Christian Serbs. Whom were very successful at attracting volunteers from other orthodox Christian followers

I'm sure if I researched it I could find more.

Will that do for you? Or will you double down again?

I do not think for one second think that these people represent Christianity. Something that you seem incapable of doing in terms of "the muslims"

As for the texts and hadiths do your thing. But for your education many of the hadiths are disputed or outright rejected by some of "the muslims".... because.... again, and I'm getting tired of saying this to you... but there is no one monolithic "the muslims"

I will wait with baited breath for your next attempt at doubling down.

And yes thankfully you live in the UK where you can have those opinions. And thankfully I live in the UK where I can call out your ignorance and narrow mindedness.

I will ask again where did you experience Sharia law?
Click to expand...

Like I said I simply don't subscribe to the things written in the quran, i find it lacks equality for people. And again let me say It again i don't hate Muslims I do not agree with the quran as it does seem to incite people with many versus that I have read.

I find it to be like a cult. Simple.

I've visited countries like I have mentioned that hold sharia law ... didn't like the freedoms of people that were subjugated to it. And by the way the sharia law is in the quran and so you surely cannot argue against it.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Dude if you want to do this then do it with some intellectual and academic integrity and don't copy and paste translations from an anti Islam site. Please provide the Quran verse references and the ones for all the Hadiths you will quote. Otherwise we are relying on a translation taken from a detractor from a language most on here do not understand.

And then just mere Quran and Hadith texts have only a connection to the theology and jurisprudence of the belief system.

The Quran is considered revelation but many of the texts are allegorical and have wildly different interpretations depending on which jurist or theologian you have decided to understand from.

Hadith are just 100'000s of narrations that vary in authenticity across numerous collections and many are not worth anything.

The theology is derived from consensus amongst theologians on individual points of belief.

Jurisprudence is derived from various sources. Quran and Hadith are just sources. They are not the legislation. The legislation is derived by text, analogy, consensus and rational reasoning. And then these are spread amongst 5 major juristic schools that differ on many issues.

If you want to come and tell me about the religion I've known and studied for decades then you are welcome to but not with some copy and paste BS from an anti Islam website. I want to know what you have actually gone and learned and verified otherwise there is no value in this conversation.
Click to expand...

This is an argument put forward by many that say that you must know Arabic to know Islam... I look at the Arab world and see how Islam is practiced. So essentially GHod only speaks in Arabic?

Why have the hadiths in the first place if they need to be authorised, its almost like a pick n mix where you can chose which ones you want to believe. Bin them all and stick to the quran ... however I have gone to the official translations from the source in Saudi Arabia ... I too have been studying the quran since I wanted to know why it polarises people so much.

I find that the treatment of women, homosexuals, and non believers not so kind.
 
Gazza said:
This is an argument put forward by many that say that you must know Arabic to know Islam... I look at the Arab world and see how Islam is practiced. So essentially GHod only speaks in Arabic?

Why have the hadiths in the first place if they need to be authorised, its almost like a pick n mix where you can chose which ones you want to believe. Bin them all and stick to the quran ... however I have gone to the official translations from the source in Saudi Arabia ... I too have been studying the quran since I wanted to know why it polarises people so much.

I find that the treatment of women, homosexuals, and non believers not so kind.
Click to expand...

Dude I asked you to bring the text and the references of books that have been written in Arabic and I am telling you as someone who reads, writes and speak both English and Arabic that the translations vary.
 
DTA said:
Still doubling down I see.

Ok let's continue.

You asked for a Christian group from modern times, just from the top of my head I will give you "the Lords resistance army" they killed between 2000 and 3000 people and displaced over 350,000. Also kidnapped and used child soldiers (slaves)

There is of course the Bosnian genocide committed by orthodox Christian Serbs. Whom were very successful at attracting volunteers from other orthodox Christian followers

I'm sure if I researched it I could find more.

Will that do for you? Or will you double down again?

I do not think for one second think that these people represent Christianity. Something that you seem incapable of doing in terms of "the muslims"

As for the texts and hadiths do your thing. But for your education many of the hadiths are disputed or outright rejected by some of "the muslims".... because.... again, and I'm getting tired of saying this to you... but there is no one monolithic "the muslims"

I will wait with baited breath for your next attempt at doubling down.

And yes thankfully you live in the UK where you can have those opinions. And thankfully I live in the UK where I can call out your ignorance and narrow mindedness.

I will ask again where did you experience Sharia law?
Click to expand...

I think you have the balkan war a little misconstrued to make your point ... it was a land grab exercise for ethnic people of various regions. Not in the name of religion.

But Jesus didn't kill a single person ... look at the life of mohammad you didn't address the butchering of the tribe I had mentioned. Did Mohammad rid of slavery? Nope. All he did was try to justify it by making the obedient slaves lives better. He by the dictionary term was a war Lord. He didn't rid marrying or children.

Anyway we are not going to get anywhere... there are other peaceful religions that get along merrily worldwide. I find Islam incompatible from my own reading. And again I'm not talking about Muslims, bloody hell how many times can I say that. Its the theology of Islam that I disagree with.

You get that?
 
thfcsteff said:
Right. I don't necessarily disagree. But that is not really what is being discussed here. At least not to my eye.

It is pretty clear to me that there are some people who judge all of Islam/muslims by sharia extremes whereas they do not judge Christianity by the Christian Fundamentalist/Old Testament. To be clear, neither religion should be judged by the extreme element of their respective texts.
Click to expand...

Steff, I absolutely agree that some criticism of Islam or Muslims is underpinned by prejudice and racism. There are white Muslims, brown, black etc but yes when some people hear the word “Muslim” they think brown or Arabic people exclusively, I do get that. My original point which seems to have got lost here is that we have to be able to criticise bad ideas, no matter what the source or the catalyst for those ideas are. Constructive criticism of a religion has to be allowed in the arena for debate without people shutting it down by saying “islamophobia”. Sometimes criticism of a religion comes from racism, but sometimes it is just criticism. It’s akin to the debate that needs to be had about transgender athletes. They absolutely deserve to be able to compete but I do sympathise with women who feel it is unfair they know have to compete again women who were born as men. The word “transphobic” gets chucked out to shut down any debate.

I recall a poll regarding The Charlie Hebdo cartoonists at the time it happened, around 20% of Muslims in Britain polled didn’t agree with the actions of the murderers but sympathise with their reasons. That to me is a worrying statistic and a belief that needs to be reformed or at the very least discussed. Like I said, we have to be able to criticise and discuss bad ideas but people using phrases or sayings that shut down any debate just makes me think that the people saying it don’t want to actually debate.
 
Gazza said:
Anyway we are not going to get anywhere... there are other peaceful religions that get along merrily worldwide. I find Islam incompatible from my own reading. And again I'm not talking about Muslims, bloody hell how many times can I say that. Its the theology of Islam that I disagree with.

You get that?
Click to expand...

You can find it incompatible mate, and also I do not think you dislike Muslims. But I do think you are singling islam out unfairly as by your standards all the religions are awful. You just have read more bad things about this one.

Jurgen the German said:
Steff, I absolutely agree that some criticism of Islam or Muslims is underpinned by prejudice and racism. There are white Muslims, brown, black etc but yes when some people hear the word “Muslim” they think brown or Arabic people exclusively, I do get that. My original point which seems to have got lost here is that we have to be able to criticise bad ideas, no matter what the source or the catalyst for those ideas are. Constructive criticism of a religion has to be allowed in the arena for debate without people shutting it down by saying “islamophobia”. Sometimes criticism of a religion comes from racism, but sometimes it is just criticism. It’s akin to the debate that needs to be had about transgender athletes. They absolutely deserve to be able to compete but I do sympathise with women who feel it is unfair they know have to compete again women who were born as men. The word “transphobic” gets chucked out to shut down any debate.

I recall a poll regarding The Charlie Hebdo cartoonists at the time it happened, around 20% of Muslims in Britain polled didn’t agree with the actions of the murderers but sympathise with their reasons. That to me is a worrying statistic and a belief that needs to be reformed or at the very least discussed. Like I said, we have to be able to criticise and discuss bad ideas but people using phrases or sayings that shut down any debate just makes me think that the people saying it don’t want to actually debate.
Click to expand...

Criticise away. This forum is an example of how not a single Muslim member has said do not criticise islam and we have been routinely criticised on here for a long time. In terms of that poll, as an analyst who works with data, please can you share it just for my personal interest. I do believe it is unfortunately about right.
 
Gazza said:
Like I said I simply don't subscribe to the things written in the quran, i find it lacks equality for people. And again let me say It again i don't hate Muslims I do not agree with the quran as it does seem to incite people with many versus that I have read.

I find it to be like a cult. Simple.

I've visited countries like I have mentioned that hold sharia law ... didn't like the freedoms of people that were subjugated to it. And by the way the sharia law is in the quran and so you surely cannot argue against it.
Click to expand...

Oh boy he doubles down again. Dude you don't have to subscribe to the things written in the quran, no one here is trying to convert you.

So you have read the Quran? Which translation? How long ago? What was the most positive thing that you took from it?

Which countries did you mention Saudi and Egypt? If so How long did you stay in each? How much did you learn about the local cultures? How much did you intermingle with the local population to learn about their lifes?

As I have answered all the questions you have posed, do me and the rest if the board the respect of answering mine.
 
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LutonSpurs said:
You can find it incompatible mate, and also I do not think you dislike Muslims. But I do think you are singling islam out unfairly as by your standards all the religions are awful. You just have read more bad things about this one.



Criticise away. This forum is an example of how not a single Muslim member has said do not criticise islam and we have been routinely criticised on here for a long time. In terms of that poll, as an analyst who works with data, please can you share it just for my personal interest. I do believe it is unfortunately about right.
Click to expand...

Here you go mate. As for the criticism, I agree mostly we can have debates. My original post was just stating a fact that Islam is not a race but was met with that is a position racists take and if you feel comfortable aligning yourself with racists then that is on you. I have no doubt that racists hind behind that along with I have many black friends etc but I just don’t feel it moves the debate along at all, it just shuts it down. As a liberal myself, I find that stance to be illiberal if anything, when it is directed at people who aren’t racist but want to have a good, open debate.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/one-four-british-muslims-have-some-sympathy-motives-behind-charlie-hebdo-attacks-10068440.html?amp
 
Jurgen the German said:
Here you go mate. As for the criticism, I agree mostly we can have debates. My original post was just stating a fact that Islam is not a race but was met with that is a position racists take and if you feel comfortable aligning yourself with racists then that is on you. I have no doubt that racists hind behind that along with I have many black friends etc but I just don’t feel it moves the debate along at all, it just shuts it down. As a liberal myself, I find that stance to be illiberal if anything, when it is directed at people who aren’t racist but want to have a good, open debate.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/one-four-british-muslims-have-some-sympathy-motives-behind-charlie-hebdo-attacks-10068440.html?amp
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Islam not being a race is probably fact. But every time we are discriminated against it is the first thing out of people's mouths. But we do experience racism and discrimination. And this is not something people seem comfortable empathising with. And that is driven by a dislike of Muslims rather than just Islam in my lived experience.
 
Gazza said:
I think you have the balkan war a little misconstrued to make your point ... it was a land grab exercise for ethnic people of various regions. Not in the name of religion.

But Jesus didn't kill a single person ... look at the life of mohammad you didn't address the butchering of the tribe I had mentioned. Did Mohammad rid of slavery? Nope. All he did was try to justify it by making the obedient slaves lives better. He by the dictionary term was a war Lord. He didn't rid marrying or children.

Anyway we are not going to get anywhere... there are other peaceful religions that get along merrily worldwide. I find Islam incompatible from my own reading. And again I'm not talking about Muslims, bloody hell how many times can I say that. Its the theology of Islam that I disagree with.

You get that?
Click to expand...

I think you have the balkan war mixed up with the Bosnian genocide.

The Orthodox Christian Serbs absolutely used religion and racism as an excuse for their atrocities I could probably pull up quotes for you. But then again every single time you have schooled on this subject you simply double down, not even acknowledging you were wrong just moving on to the next display of your prejudice.

The Banu Qurayza? You are serious about that? I thought you wanted to talk about modern atrocities...

OK dude:

I mean the list is so long I don't even know where to start:

The crusades... too obvious.

400 years of industrial slavery justified and facilitated by priests and the church...

Then Spanish inquisition, where in the name of christ Jews were slaughtered and excited from Spain? And incidently saved by a Muslim Sultan...

Pretty much every Pogrom up until the nazis

All could be good examples... but I think I'm going to go for the conquistadors and their genocide in the name of spreading the word of christ
 
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