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***TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR v Crystal Palace OMT***

shaney said:
The interesting thing is that a lot of those supporting Poch are the exact same ones who supported AVB blindly and the arguments for supporting him are almost word for word the same.
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Actually I don't think that is true at all. You may have gathered I was not an AVB fan although I gave him a fair crack of the whip.

I am supporting Poch because as Galeforce says he has been at the club 5 minutes. There are clearly internal divisions amongst the players and an endemic lack of character/weakness in mentality call it what you will. Coming off a traumatic last season for the club.

As Spurs fans we expect the manager to

Hit the ground running no blips.
Pick the side fans want and make the substitutions we demand when we want them as we know the physical condition of the Spurs players better than the person who works with them every day and is talking to them and ensure we play well and win games.
Implement an effective playing system that is player proof yet at the same time plays to every player's individual strengths
Compete in all tournaments Spurs play in to a high standard.
Replace all the mediocre players immediately and Buy world class players with money we do not have, oh and keep the ones who do not want to stay.

No surprise then that we get through a lot of managers.
 
Not a good game, again we struggle to break down a well organized hard working team.

Thought we lacked energy, movement and tempo in our passing. Been so many conversations about rotation and fatigue on here the last week, I'm guessing they will continue. To me Mason, Bentaleb, Kane and Eriksen were all clearly not up to their best and I think starting 3 games in 6 days might be related.

We more or less have options for Eriksen (Chadli) and Kane (Lamela as a #10, Soldado up front). But not sure we have any real options for Bentaleb and Mason. Real concern going into the Christmas period having to rely so heavily on those two youngsters. I really hope something is done in January, unless someone like Stambouli steps forward big time.

Poch could have done things differently. In hindsight it seems easy to say rotate more, but at the same time so many of our squad players have been under performing...
 
scaramanga said:
You're lucky I'm in a patient mood as it means we can step through this at your pace.

The thing those teams have in common is that nobody parks the bus against them. That gives them the room (width-wise and in behind) to play a crossing game and for that crossing game to be effective.

Teams don't give us that space. We might be able to work it against City away, maybe Utd away too but everyone else defends deep against us and doesn't allow that form of attack.
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Strange debate this - I would have thought everyone could agree that playing with zero width (either from midfielders or full-backs) is not an effective strategy? The research you and Milo have linked to is incredibly flawed and simplistic as far as I can tell (nowhere near enough independent variables in their model, variables lacking validity), to the point where it is pretty much worthless.

Yes pumping the ball into the box against a team defending deep and narrow will not be very effective. But neither will attacking equally narrow and trying to pass through such a congested area be effective, particularly with players who haven't proven themselves to have the technical ability to do that - which is what we're currently doing. Surely we can all agree that a slight shift to more width, to stretch the defence horizontally and make defenders turn at least 90 degrees (which is more than they have to do now!), would be beneficial? As someone else has said, no-one plays with no width (Alves, Zabaleta etc) and the teams who play with the least width have world class technical players who can pass in small spaces - if you don't have those players, I don't see a logical argument as to why passing through deep narrow defences should be any more effective than passing around them and occasionally crossing.
 
Ok, I can be patronising too.

One step at a time for you. I agree we mostly play teams that park the bus against us at home. That is all the more reason to play with width, use all the available space and pull teams about. What we are doing is playing right into their hands with inverted wingers cutting in and compressing the space.

Following so far?

To play intricate, eye of the needle football, you need clever, skilful, speedy players that have the technical ability to pick passes, make adroit runs and collect passes - all at speed. We ont have any of those, Eriksen being the nearest.

How many of our current squad except Loris would get into any of the top teams? They all have better players to play this way. That unfortunately isn't going to change anytime soon.

Consequently, we need to find a way that is different as to play them at their own game is doomed to failure. Our heritage and history demand that we innovate and play in a way that suits us. For me that is with pace out wide so we can play balls in behind in classic give and go football.

Call me a dinasour, but that is the type of football I enjoy. Wingers are out of fashion at the moment, so we should be able to buy the best as they aren't currentlysought by our rivals. we need to think contra cyclically if we want to be able to compete with the big boys again. Out of the box, tear up the coaching manual crap, and let's just play football again.
 
Pirate55 said:
Ok, I can be patronising too.

One step at a time for you. I agree we mostly play teams that park the bus against us at home. That is all the more reason to play with width, use all the available space and pull teams about. What we are doing is playing right into their hands with inverted wingers cutting in and compressing the space.

Following so far?

To play intricate, eye of the needle football, you need clever, skilful, speedy players that have the technical ability to pick passes, make adroit runs and collect passes - all at speed. We ont have any of those, Eriksen being the nearest.

How many of our current squad except Loris would get into any of the top teams? They all have better players to play this way. That unfortunately isn't going to change anytime soon.

Consequently, we need to find a way that is different as to play them at their own game is doomed to failure. Our heritage and history demand that we innovate and play in a way that suits us. For me that is with pace out wide so we can play balls in behind in classic give and go football.

Call me a dinasour, but that is the type of football I enjoy. Wingers are out of fashion at the moment, so we should be able to buy the best as they aren't currentlysought by our rivals. we need to think contra cyclically if we want to be able to compete with the big boys again. Out of the box, tear up the coaching manual crap, and let's just play football again.
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I've played it on the 4-4-2 thread. What team at our level is having success playing 4-2-3-1?

To supprt the comments earlier, we have the smallest pirxh arousn but seem to be able to only use the middle of it anyway.

We play such predictable football that teams don't park the bus anymore, they just sit on cruise control and let their own pace hit us where they have space.. Either side of our central players (all 6 of them)
 
Pirate55 said:
Ok, I can be patronising too.
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Actually, you can't. See the bolded bit below.

patronize

ˈpatrənʌɪz/

verb

gerund or present participle:*patronising

1.

treat with an apparent kindness which betrays a feeling of superiority.
 
Disappointed with the result yesterday, but not surprised. I think we have only beaten Palace at WHL once in the league since I've been following Spurs.
I remember last year's win (the only one I remember) being scoffed at big time as we apparently played REALLY sh!t and got out of jail after Puncheon penalty calamity.

Oh well at least we don't have to bust a gut on Thursday to qualify for EL, so hopefully we will be fresher for Swansea away, which will be tough.

I think the 3 PL games in 6/7 days have caught up with most teams tbh. For example, we've taken the same points in this period as Chelski, though of course 6 would have been much preferred.

Onwards....

P.S. To those saying Poch should be sacked now :ross::ross::ross:
 
glorygloryeze said:
Disappointed with the result yesterday, but not surprised. I think we have only beaten Palace at WHL once in the league since I've been following Spurs.
I remember last year's win (the only one I remember) being scoffed at big time as we apparently played REALLY sh!t and got out of jail after Puncheon penalty calamity.

Oh well at least we don't have to bust a gut on Thursday to qualify for EL, so hopefully we will be fresher for Swansea away, which will be tough.

I think the 3 PL games in 6/7 days have caught up with most teams tbh. For example, we've taken the same points in this period as Chelski, though of course 6 would have been much preferred.

Onwards....

P.S. To those saying Poch should be sacked now :ross::ross::ross:
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Excellent post.

Hopefully Bentaleb, Mason, Eriksen and Kane get rested mid week. At least.
 
Also remember that Palace have won away at Everton, beaten Liverpool and lost narrowly at Manure and Arsenal.

Hardly the pushovers some are claiming when you look at it that way...
 
glorygloryeze said:
Also remember that Palace have won away at Everton, beaten Liverpool and lost narrowly at Manure and Arsenal.

Hardly the pushovers some are claiming when you look at it that way...
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Next week the expectation will be to walk all over a Swansea side that has lost once at home.
 
scaramanga said:
Erm.....
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Looking at things in black and white there Scara - you can still get to the byline and play balls behind teams that are sitting deep, they're not standing on the goal line.

Interested to hear your thoughts on the rest of the posts too.
 
There a good well organises side with some pace and a structure

I think most of us are galled that we couldn't create a thing. Two shots on target and saved by Lloris and the woodwork

That's the issue, not who were playing. It's about how we're playing
 
elltrev said:
Looking at things in black and white there Scara - you can still get to the byline and play balls behind teams that are sitting deep, they're not standing on the goal line.

Interested to hear your thoughts on the rest of the posts too.
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It's unlikely though. In all likelihood you'd have to get past at least two defenders to get behind their full back - at that point you're not behind their central defenders (when crosses are really dangerous) as they were defending very deep anyway. So your winger has to beat two defenders, put in a good cross (probably under pressure) and then the recipient of your cross has to beat a settled and prepared defence heading away from goal and a keeper who is also settled and prepared for a cross. The chances of this succeeding are just infinitesimally small.


I've already agreed that width is good when passing across/through a team - that's not what I'm arguing against. I just don't agree that sticking on a good old English style winger to lob in crosses is going to change our fortunes.

The problem is, crosses excite the crowd even when we don't get on the end of them. So even though we've massively reduced our chances of scoring, to those who don't know any better it seems like we're creating a lot. Most fans would consider a through ball our forward didn't quite get to and a cross he didn't quite get to as equal but they're far from it.
 
I personally havent seen a crowd react to crosses. I had seen a crowd react though to passing the ball to one of their own players in an attacking/threatening position which we currently are appalling at... And crosses would hell with that as well as through bAlls, cut backs or anything that is positive
 
Pirate55 said:
Ok, I can be patronising too.

One step at a time for you. I agree we mostly play teams that park the bus against us at home. That is all the more reason to play with width, use all the available space and pull teams about. What we are doing is playing right into their hands with inverted wingers cutting in and compressing the space.

Following so far?

To play intricate, eye of the needle football, you need clever, skilful, speedy players that have the technical ability to pick passes, make adroit runs and collect passes - all at speed. We ont have any of those, Eriksen being the nearest.

How many of our current squad except Loris would get into any of the top teams? They all have better players to play this way. That unfortunately isn't going to change anytime soon.

Consequently, we need to find a way that is different as to play them at their own game is doomed to failure. Our heritage and history demand that we innovate and play in a way that suits us. For me that is with pace out wide so we can play balls in behind in classic give and go football.

Call me a dinasour, but that is the type of football I enjoy. Wingers are out of fashion at the moment, so we should be able to buy the best as they aren't currentlysought by our rivals. we need to think contra cyclically if we want to be able to compete with the big boys again. Out of the box, tear up the coaching manual crap, and let's just play football again.
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Who are these "the best" wingers that we can buy?

Do you accept that although your proposed route to success might work there are also other ways of doing things that could work?
 
Consequently, we need to find a way that is different as to play them at their own game is doomed to failure. Our heritage and history demand that we innovate and play in a way that suits us. For me that is with pace out wide so we can play balls in behind in classic give and go football.

Call me a dinasour, but that is the type of football I enjoy. Wingers are out of fashion at the moment, so we should be able to buy the best as they aren't currentlysought by our rivals. we need to think contra cyclically if we want to be able to compete with the big boys again. Out of the box, tear up the coaching manual crap, and let's just play football again.

Good post! Palace had 2 wingers and nearly tore us a new one. I would have either of them in our team in a flash.
 
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