Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[metalgear]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

More vulnerable than when we got spanked 5-0 3-0 at home 6-0 away? I agree we look anything but water tight, but certainly no worse than the last stretch under AVB.

Myself and others were adamant at the time that the only reason we had that stretch of what on paper were good defensive performances, was because teams were affording us too much respect.

Add Verts back into the mix and we'll instantly look stronger defensively too.

What 'real' teams are you talking about. So far under Sherwood we have played Arsenal and Man Utd away. They're real teams aren't they :-k

Plus we can't have it both ways I suppose: we want to attack more and if at the same time were going to blood youngsters like Bentaleb then there's going to be defensive side effects.

i think the 5-0 and 6-0 scores are the same as the recent string of wins - it doesn't reflect the real situation. we'll need more time and we have half a season to do that. if you're making comparisons than also remember that we should be stronger with rose a proper LB back right now.

 

[elltrev]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Not sure if it has been posted here or elsewhere already, but I thought this was a decent article with some real quotes from Sherwood:

http://www.london24.com/sport/tottenham/spurs_boss_considers_change_of_style_to_incorporate_chadli_and_lamela_1_3199838

I still find these kinds of black and white comments strange. Surely your formation affects the principles he talks about? It's easier to be 'responsible in defensive areas' and 'fill up the middle of the park' playing with a holding midfielder (4-5-1) than an extra striker (4-4-2), and it's easier to 'have attacking options when you go forward' playing with an extra striker rather than a holding midfielder.

'Football formations don’t win games, football players win games' - can't stand it when people say this.

'When you’re out of possession, you’re always out of balance. It’s about how you shuffle back in and defend it.' a) I don't see why you're always out of balance without the ball, and b) part of 'how you shuffle back in and defend it' will surely depend on whether you're playing 4-4-2 or 4-5-1, for example.

I understand his (and others') dislike of people who see formations as the be all and end all, but I find it equally frustrating when people like him go to the other extreme and say they're completely meaningless (or 'a load of rubbish').

 

[Spur of the moment]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I quite enjoyed reading this article too

http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features...ix-classic-and-modern-may-be-just-tonic-spurs

From the above article:

In (AVB's) first season, those goals came mostly through Gareth Bale who, incidentally, became truly world-class under Villas-Boas

So his Milan performances weren't world class? Okay you could certainly argue he escalated his world class status under AVB but to imply he hadn't already achieved that status is imo bordering on revisionism.

Taxi for Chris Miller (author of that blog)! :lol:

 

[Hootnow]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A few world class performances don't mean you're a world class player.

He alternated between excellence in the CL (and some PL games) to almost complete anonymity in others. It was only last season where he became truly world class.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

From the above article:

In (AVB's) first season, those goals came mostly through Gareth Bale who, incidentally, became truly world-class under Villas-Boas

So his Milan performances weren't world class? Okay you could certainly argue he escalated his world class status under AVB but to imply he hadn't already achieved that status is imo bordering on revisionism.

Taxi for Chris Miller (author of that blog)! :lol:

The Inter Milan performances emphasised his potential to be world class as it was a virtuoso performance against top quality opposition.
But at that time he wasn't doing it regularly. He certainly was not a consistent game changer or winner in the way that aman must be to be correctly labelled as world-class.
In the manner of Ronaldo and Messi for years. Suarez this season.
And Bale last season.

So...taxi for you?

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I still find these kinds of black and white comments strange. Surely your formation affects the principles he talks about? It's easier to be 'responsible in defensive areas' and 'fill up the middle of the park' playing with a holding midfielder (4-5-1) than an extra striker (4-4-2), and it's easier to 'have attacking options when you go forward' playing with an extra striker rather than a holding midfielder.

'Football formations don’t win games, football players win games' - can't stand it when people say this.

'When you’re out of possession, you’re always out of balance. It’s about how you shuffle back in and defend it.' a) I don't see why you're always out of balance without the ball, and b) part of 'how you shuffle back in and defend it' will surely depend on whether you're playing 4-4-2 or 4-5-1, for example.

I understand his (and others') dislike of people who see formations as the be all and end all, but I find it equally frustrating when people like him go to the other extreme and say they're completely meaningless (or 'a load of rubbish').

But in how many games will formation be the difference?

For most matches - say, against teams in places 7 - 20, Spurs' shape shouldn't matter as much as the general principle that it's attacking, that the players are high quality, that they pass accurately, that defenders block and strikers score, and that all over the pitch there's a good attitude. In those instances we impose whatever game we want on Fulham or Stoke or Palace - formation shouldn't actually matter.

That does leave 10 games or so where formation might matter. But when those games come round we might have a good groove going at 4-4-2, so why change? Or, available personnel might dictate how you play. Or, because you are at home, you might be obliged to have a go.

So I kinda think that by the time you add all that up it might leave only 4 or 5 games a season where the formation is actually important.

 

[P.D.]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

But the other advantage of the system is that when you have players out injured, others can slot in easily allowing for continuity. If you rely on individual players to rescue situations then when they are injured, its highly unlikely you will have an identical replacement with the same attributes so it's about getting balance into the team.

While transitions are important, you also need to have a consistent balance to the team. Players need to know how to position and move generally for all situations, its not just above oh we've lost the ball now everyone run to here. A more well drilled team wouldnt have to move like that because things would be more controlled, players wouldnt be out of position everywhere etc.

As ever the answer lies in finding the balance somwhere between the two.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A few world class performances don't mean you're a world class player.

He alternated between excellence in the CL (and some PL games) to almost complete anonymity in others. It was only last season where he became truly world class.

think i agree with this

consistency and a lengthy period of world class displays confirms your status

you may have the talent and the ability but you have to display it

 

[the dza]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Slightly picky of me, but the article states that Sherwood played the holding role for Blackburn. IIRC, David Batty played that role, Sherwood was a box-to-box type of player.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Interesting quote from Sherwood after Saturday's game where, evidently, he was massively peeved over the lack of commitment in the first half. I can't remember the exact words but he said something to the effect: "I'll take desire over talent all day long".

Of course, what you want is players who have both desire and talent. As The Man In The Overcoat once said, "you want great players who work hard".

I think the Tottenham players will get the message quickly, if they have not already, as Tim is not the shy and retiring type.

The other post-match comment I picked up on was the desire shown by Defoe when warming up on the touchline. Perhaps I am inferring too much from this, but I got the impression Tim thought Defoe put more effort into his warm-up routine than Soldado did into his playing.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Interesting quote from Sherwood after Saturday's game where, evidently, he was massively peeved over the lack of commitment in the first half. I can't remember the exact words but he said something to the effect: "I'll take desire over talent all day long".

Of course, what you want is players who have both desire and talent. As The Man In The Overcoat once said, "you want great players who work hard".

I think the Tottenham players will get the message quickly, if they have not already, as Tim is not the shy and retiring type.

The other post-match comment I picked up on was the desire shown by Defoe when warming up on the touchline. Perhaps I am inferring too much from this, but I got the impression Tim thought Defoe put more effort into his warm-up routine than Soldado did into his playing.

I really didn't like that comment. That's what managers in relegation battles say. Character over quality etc.

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really didn't like that comment. That's what managers in relegation battles say. Character over quality etc.

That is not at all what he said, nor the thrust of it. Here's the exact quote in context:

"We have a group of lads who are very talented but unless you marry that with desire, you won't get the results. If you don't show desire, your ability counts for nothing.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25600519

It's fine not to like the guy, but trying to suggest he's Dave Bassett at every opportunity is getting a bit tiresome.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Chancer: Spot on, that quote is perfectly fine.

We've seen plenty of performances like the first half against Palace in our time as Spurs fans. Being the better team on paper, having superior quality, top top players, but without the desire to actually ****ing win the game.

Sherwood has shown plenty of willingness to get players with technical ability onto the pitch, him realizing that you also need effort and desire is not a negative.

I suppose only time will tell if he's capable of getting that desire consistently out of our squad.

 

[Briddo1882]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I was a massive Sceptic of Sherwoods, however I am coming round to like him. I like the fact that he is fairly blunt and talks about football like it is not a science, it is a fairly straightforward game. Yes there is science involved, nutrician, training, managing injuries etc.....however, to me his comments are logical and refreshing. AVB used to annoy me when he waffled on, like it was some mystical science - it isn't.

If you have talented players that are willing to work hard (look at Man U for the last 20 years under Fergie) then you'll get results. Obviously you work on tactics, but essentially if you have 11 good players against 6 good players and 5 mediocre players (and the good 11 work hard) they should win regardless of formation.

I know people on here were not Harry's greatest fans, however, he spoke of it being a simple game and he was a great motivator. We had our best spell (arguably since the Keith Burkinshaw days) under him. Tim seems to be able to motivate (2nd half on Saturday against Palace is an example), he keeps things fairly simple - maybe he is the talent that everyone who knows him sees?

I would happily backtrack on my dislike of Tim being appointed if we have success.....thats all I want, Spurs to be successful - and initial impressions are positive.

 

[Roland Beurre]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

That is not at all what he said, nor the thrust of it. Here's the exact quote in context:



http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/25600519

For what it is worth, the interview I was referring to was on the Guardian web site. I have no idea whether it is the same interview but the general thrust seems to be the same.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I really didn't like that comment. That's what managers in relegation battles say. Character over quality etc.

I'm pretty sure thats been Ferguson's policy down the years too.

 

[Sandman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

For me Saturday's game showed perfectly that if you dont put in the effor then talent can still get overrun by a not below averate team who are trying their hardest. With this 4-4-2 formation that Tim is playing the Full backs are going to have to work very hard all game. We need them to get up and down the line to not only cover the opposition but also provide some width. This in turn allows are wide players to tuck in and get 4 against a possible three or at least have more number to counter an oppostion with three in the centre.

In the first half on saturday Moussa and Nabil were getting overun a little as Chamakh was dropping into midfield picking up the ball and playing in the runners. This was working a treat for Palace as our players simply not working hard enough to make the 4-4-2 work. Second half he got the full backs to push on and work the side lines. This not only held back Palace's wide players but allowed Eriksen to tuck in more and Aaron as well and or us to get more bodies in the centre. What worries me a little about this is that a lot of Premiership teams play with 1 striker now and unless we are at it every game we could get over run in periods.

Also at the moment the quality of the wide play we are getting from Rose and Walker with crosses into the box is abject at best. I lost count of the times Ade just watched the ball sail over his head. They really do need to work on their technique or their fitness so that when they arrive in that position they are not too shattered to put in the required Quality.

Im not a fan of 4-4-2 with this squad and with Losing Defoe, Soldado being off form and Ade being a hissy fit away from strolling around the game. But that said 4-4-2 can work against the three man midfield if the team work hard enough.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I'm pretty sure thats been Ferguson's policy down the years too.

He hasn't ignored quality, but always tried to make sure that they had the right character off the pitch. Anyone that didn't put the team first or got up to shenanigans were shipped. I was surprised when they bowed to Rooney's demands, but without they'd be truly ****ed.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I was a massive Sceptic of Sherwoods, however I am coming round to like him. I like the fact that he is fairly blunt and talks about football like it is not a science, it is a fairly straightforward game. Yes there is science involved, nutrician, training, managing injuries etc.....however, to me his comments are logical and refreshing. AVB used to annoy me when he waffled on, like it was some mystical science - it isn't.

If you have talented players that are willing to work hard (look at Man U for the last 20 years under Fergie) then you'll get results. Obviously you work on tactics, but essentially if you have 11 good players against 6 good players and 5 mediocre players (and the good 11 work hard) they should win regardless of formation.

I know people on here were not Harry's greatest fans, however, he spoke of it being a simple game and he was a great motivator. We had our best spell (arguably since the Keith Burkinshaw days) under him. Tim seems to be able to motivate (2nd half on Saturday against Palace is an example), he keeps things fairly simple - maybe he is the talent that everyone who knows him sees?

I would happily backtrack on my dislike of Tim being appointed if we have success.....thats all I want, Spurs to be successful - and initial impressions are positive.

Football is not simple. I hate that saying. Football is chess, but with a lot more squares. Blimey, even my sunday league team has a system, a handful of different formations and a tactics book.

The hostility towards an intellectual approach to football is what has turned the English national team and English players into the sick man of Europe over the last 25 years. Wenger has led an honorable campaign to counter it, but by-and-large he has failed (although his remit was never to prevent the death of English football).

Sherwood is just 1990s retro. Gerry Francis but not as smart. He's blunt because he's not capable of being refined or shrewd.

 

[Craig_J]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Football is not simple. I hate that saying. Football is chess, but with a lot more squares. Blimey, even my sunday league team has a system, a handful of different formations and a tactics book.

The hostility towards an intellectual approach to football is what has turned the English national team and English players into the sick man of Europe over the last 25 years. Wenger has led an honorable campaign to counter it, but by-and-large he has failed (although his remit was never to prevent the death of English football).

Sherwood is just 1990s retro. Gerry Francis but not as smart. He's blunt because he's not capable of being refined or shrewd.

Come on man, why are you still going on about this? I get that you rated AVB, I did too but he wasn't working. Whether he would or wouldn't have is irrelevant. Time to get over it and start getting behind Sherwood, what ever you may feel oh him. It's all getting a bit old now.