Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

We can't have it both ways as fans. We can't blame Sherwood entirely for yesterday and give him no credit for Man United.

The strategy at United was sound, and it worked. That's down to Tim as much as it is down to our players carrying it out and United players playing poorly. We have to be fair and give credit where it's due.

To be fair to Maltese, I think he is basically saying that when Sherwood found/stumbled upon a winning formula against Manure, instead of realising why it worked against them and that Arsenal are a difference proposition who have different strengths and weaknesses, he just thought 'i'll just do the same'.

It looked a bit like when Harry beat Arsenal in April 2010 and then thought 'oh well, i'll just do the same' again a year later - not realising why it worked in April 2010 (Arsenal lacked shooting capability from distance, we had greater aerial supremacy in deeper areas) and why it would NOT work again in April 2011 (they had pace on the break, more strength in CM against Modric and Hudd, and we were minus Ledley beside Dawson). It was the kind of roll-the-dice-and see-what-works approach that Harry often tried that I think he's talking about.
To Harry's credit in April 2011 he changed things at Half-time and we really in the end should have won, but the first half foolish tactics (which anyone could see a mile off) that gave us too much work to do.

I think Maltese basically says Tim did the same yesterday: not realised what worked vs Manure and why it wouldn't likely work against Arsenal (who have more numbers in midfield and a far far better one).
A fair and worrying point imo

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To be fair to Maltese, I think he is basically saying that when Sherwood found/stumbled upon a winning formula against Manure, instead of realising why it worked against them and that Arsenal are a difference proposition who have different strengths and weaknesses, he just thought 'i'll just do the same'.

It looked a bit like when Harry beat Arsenal in April 2010 and then thought 'oh well, i'll just do the same' again a year later - not realising why it worked in April 2010 (Arsenal lacked shooting capability from distance, we had greater aerial supremacy in deeper areas) and why it would work again in April 2011 (they had pace on the break, more strength in CM against Modric and Hudd, and we were minus Ledley beside Dawson). It was the kind of roll-the-dice-and see-what-works approach that Harry often tried that I think he's talking about.
To Harry's credit in April 2011 he changed things at Half-time and we really in the end should have won, but the first half foolish tactics (which anyone could see a mile off) that gave us too much work to do.

I think Maltese basically says Tim did the same yesterday: not realised what worked vs Manure and why it wouldn't likely work against Arsenal (who have more numbers in midfield and a far far better one).
A fair and worrying point imo

Thank you

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wenger rarely changes the way Arsanal line up or play. They always set out to impose their system and style on the opposition. I feel thats what Sherwood wants us to do and thats why he was happy to go in with the same line up and tactics yesterday as against Utd, Stoke, West brom and Southampton.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yeah, ok. The last manager who set out to impose a style and system on the opposition was sacked for not being flexible enough. Approaching a game against Stoke in the same way you do the league leaders is called naivity

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

To be fair to Maltese, I think he is basically saying that when Sherwood found/stumbled upon a winning formula against Manure, instead of realising why it worked against them and that Arsenal are a difference proposition who have different strengths and weaknesses, he just thought 'i'll just do the same'.

It looked a bit like when Harry beat Arsenal in April 2010 and then thought 'oh well, i'll just do the same' again a year later - not realising why it worked in April 2010 (Arsenal lacked shooting capability from distance, we had greater aerial supremacy in deeper areas) and why it would NOT work again in April 2011 (they had pace on the break, more strength in CM against Modric and Hudd, and we were minus Ledley beside Dawson). It was the kind of roll-the-dice-and see-what-works approach that Harry often tried that I think he's talking about.
To Harry's credit in April 2011 he changed things at Half-time and we really in the end should have won, but the first half foolish tactics (which anyone could see a mile off) that gave us too much work to do.

I think Maltese basically says Tim did the same yesterday: not realised what worked vs Manure and why it wouldn't likely work against Arsenal (who have more numbers in midfield and a far far better one).
A fair and worrying point imo

Isn't it still too early to say with any certainty?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Isn't it still too early to say with any certainty?

Just saying that Maltese made some very fair points on Sherwood's approach yesterday.
One can only hope he learns, but I have to say for me it is a worrying sign and one that for me means we wont finish higher than 6th

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Wenger rarely changes the way Arsanal line up or play. They always set out to impose their system and style on the opposition. I feel thats what Sherwood wants us to do and thats why he was happy to go in with the same line up and tactics yesterday as against Utd, Stoke, West brom and Southampton.

When we have the likes of Ozil, Cazorla et al in our midfield and a system that developed over more than a decade in which new players fit into the system seamlessly, then we can try that. Until then, we need to run horses for courses.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It was the kind of roll-the-dice-and see-what-works approach that Harry often tried that I think he's talking about.

This is precisely my worry - that we are getting Harry Mark II without the jibes against Levy and the media soundbites.

Hope he proves me wrong...

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yeah, ok. The last manager who set out to impose a style and system on the opposition was sacked for not being flexible enough. Approaching a game against Stoke in the same way you do the league leaders is called naivity

no he was sacked because his style and system was too defensive and we were struggling to score goals.

tbh, what ive always wanted is my team to play with 2 forwards. Sherwood is giving me that so im very happy. I want to see us attack the opposition with pace and power and i feel thats what Sherwood is trying to deliver. I dont care about possession stats, i just want us to have a go and dare to score goals.

yesterday it didnt quite work, so be it.

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yeah, I'd just hate to see us playing exciting football, finishing top 4 and getting to the QF of the Champions League again. The horror of it all.

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

When we have the likes of Ozil, Cazorla et al in our midfield and a system that developed over more than a decade in which new players fit into the system seamlessly, then we can try that. Until then, we need to run horses for courses.

Considering the amount of players we had out we hardly had many options anyway, whatever way we played would have had the same result like it or not.

And until Sherwood has most of the squad at his disposal you can't make assumptions about what his preferred system or line up is. He's currently just trying to do the best with what he's got which at the moment is half a team...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

no he was sacked because his style and system was too defensive and we were struggling to score goals.

tbh, what ive always wanted is my team to play with 2 forwards. Sherwood is giving me that so im very happy. I want to see us attack the opposition with pace and power and i feel thats what Sherwood is trying to deliver. I dont care about possession stats, i just want us to have a go and dare to score goals.

yesterday it didnt quite work, so be it.

Ok, fair enough. When we try similar in other games against teams far more wiley than us and get spanked mercilessly I will expect no complaints from you

 

[harr1984]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is precisely my worry - that we are getting Harry Mark II without the jibes against Levy and the media soundbites.

Hope he proves me wrong...

Would be absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. I'm big enough to admit I thought Harry leaving might take us forward, but seeing what I've had to endure pre and post Redknapp, boy was I wrong....

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yeah, I'd just hate to see us playing exciting football, finishing top 4 and getting to the QF of the Champions League again. The horror of it all.

Yeah, like that's happening again any time soon

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

When we have the likes of Ozil, Cazorla et al in our midfield and a system that developed over more than a decade in which new players fit into the system seamlessly, then we can try that. Until then, we need to run horses for courses.

you talk like we were blown off the park by them and it was all because Sherwood stubbornly refused to change his tactics....it really wasnt like that. For all of Arsanal's way of playing and their million midfielders, i dont think they dominated possession, i didnt see them carve us open time after time, they in fact scored two goals because our defenders switched off and made mistakes

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

This is precisely my worry - that we are getting Harry Mark II without the jibes against Levy and the media soundbites.

Hope he proves me wrong...

Other than a way with a sound bite and appearing to be popular with his players, what do you see as the similarities between Sherwood and Harry?

 

[indianspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Ok, fair enough. When we try similar in other games against teams far more wiley than us and get spanked mercilessly I will expect no complaints from you

you wont get any from me as long as we go out with the intention of imposing our attacking game on the opposition. That has to be what we build towards

 

[diego_maradona]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Its an argument which we'll not really ever get the answer to. If we played 4-4-2 with better quality players would we win? If we had Ribery and Robben instead of Eriksen and Lamela would we have won?

I absolutely think it is possible for a team when in possession of the ball line up 4-4-2 and beat Arsenal. The players need to work cohesively, and absolutely believe in the system understanding what each role plays in the fully functional unit.

I'm kind of coming around to Harry's comment about players not systems win you games. I think any system in which players fully believe in and execute perfectly can trump another sides. There are so so many factors which go into thinking about why team A beat team B.

I still fancy United to come to the Emirates and at least get a draw (as long as Rooney, RVP and first team players play and are fully fit). There is a history which dictates the mentality the players approach that game. In the same manner that we always lose to Arsenal at the Emirates.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

you wont get any from me as long as we go out with the intention of imposing our attacking game on the opposition. That has to be what we build towards

Tottenham have been doing that for years since the 80s...just trying to do that alone has got us nowhere. You need a deeper strategy than just 'go out there and attack'

 

[screen nayim]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Are you surprised? unfortunately this is the biggest reason that I think Levy ****ed up with appointing TS.

Every time TS losses, he will be under the spotlight, questions on naivety, tactics, systems, player choices, subs, because he is an unknown quantity.

This is the only upside of Levy not giving a sh!t about what the fans say or think. He won't be swayed by loons on forums writing off TS after every loss.





Seeing it all from block 29.