Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[Mabspurs]

Where is this run of 8 wins out of 10 coming from? What signs do you see that a 8 game winning streak is coming towards our way? We have 7 wins in 20 games. That is like me saying my retirement plan is winning the lottery, I just have to play constantly.
Chelsea sacked their manager for being 5th, United sacked theirs for being 6th. We are 13th my friend. I'm not saying sack him, I am saying he hasn't done a good job so far and wouldn't be surprised if they did. He has brought himself in this situation and looking at our game, there are no heavy signs that he can turn it around.

The logical fallacies in this thread would fill a psychology PhD thesis.... people nailing their flag to the mast and then using "facts" to supposedly justify their position.

Neither United nor Chelsea sacked their manager because of their league position.... they did so because of insubordination - pure and simple; as we had done with Conte after the infamous Southampton game!!

You have every right to criticise Frank as I have every right to believe you are living in cuckoo land with your assertions. But at least be fair in your arguments. After all he is still the manager of the club I assume you are a fan of....

 

[billyiddo]

So what league position do you think he should have to have us above to be safe at the end of the season?

...17th

 

[Baleforce]

Where is this run of 8 wins out of 10 coming from? What signs do you see that a 8 game winning streak is coming towards our way? We have 7 wins in 20 games. That is like me saying my retirement plan is winning the lottery, I just have to play constantly.
Chelsea sacked their manager for being 5th, United sacked theirs for being 6th. We are 13th my friend. I'm not saying sack him, I am saying he hasn't done a good job so far and wouldn't be surprised if they did. He has brought himself in this situation and looking at our game, there are no heavy signs that he can turn it around.

Chelsea sacked their manager for talking to city about replacing Pep when he leaves.

United sacked Amorim for throwing a strop at the owners.

Neither had anything to do with league position.

 

[Surfless]

This is spot on.

I think we all underestimate the difference Kane and Son made to our results over the years. Their Xg numbers are insane and in most cases better than any World class striker/forward of the last 10 years that you can name (Salah's are surprisingly poor btw). And we had them both in the team at the same friggin time! We will never be that lucky again. They single handedly turned many poor to average performances into wins.

If you replaced them during the 2015-2022 era with even good forwards from our recent history like Defoe, Keane, Sheringham etc. how many top 4 finishes would we have achieved? Maybe one in 2016/17 when we were an all round excellent team.

First Ange and now Frank have both had to deal with the reality of the drop off and we as fans have to adjust our expectations accordingly.

Kane and Son. A blessing and a curse.

thanks for reading - it was a long post

To say we can't get back there again / won't be that lucky - we've got a long and distinguished history of having top class forwards, you can add Berbatov, Klinsmann, Lineker, Bale, Hoddle, Greaves, and many more to Kane and Son - so there's no danger we won't get another. The key is though that the world now has changed and we need to be in for the Estevao's and such sharpish - not caught out dawdling. Levy's biggest flaw was that he clung on for the best financial deal he could get - while this is prudent in business its terrible in football. We need decisive management which is ready to push the boat out for the right player, fully aware of the knock on effect that will have on the wages in the current squad (there's usually a few who negotiate to be on par with the top earner for instance).

 

[Surfless]

Where is this run of 8 wins out of 10 coming from? What signs do you see that a 8 game winning streak is coming towards our way? We have 7 wins in 20 games. That is like me saying my retirement plan is winning the lottery, I just have to play constantly.
Chelsea sacked their manager for being 5th, United sacked theirs for being 6th. We are 13th my friend. I'm not saying sack him, I am saying he hasn't done a good job so far and wouldn't be surprised if they did. He has brought himself in this situation and looking at our game, there are no heavy signs that he can turn it around.

interesting use of narrative to suit your story.

Chelsea sacked Maresca for his behaviour, not his ability or their league position - which is why today when Utd did the same to Amorim the first thing everyone assumed was it was to get Maresca before City do it when Pep leaves.

So Maresca and Amorim have gone because of their attitude and relationships not their league positions. Bit like Conte, and remember how that went for us?

To ask me where is the run of 8 wins in 10 coming from is weird - where did the run to the final and the victory in the Europa League last year come from? It came from 11 players beating the other 11 eleven over and over again. Have a look at how Villa have performed this season and tell me why we couldn't do the same.

It a faintly ridiculous question to ask in any case, as we don't have a crystal ball.

Rather than saying he's not done a good job until now, how about considering the context of how he is having to work? I posted another comment today highlighting that he is missing 124 goal contributions (goals and assists) from last season, at the current time. 65 odd of those pro-rata into the first 20 games of the season. Frank is literally grinding out results, as we have no creativity or fire power at the moment. I don't like the defensive bias he's using, but I understand it, and so, so many of our fans could do with considering this rather than subscribing to the Instagram/Sky Sports "one result and he's GHod, one result and he's gone" flimflam.

Football is not amazon prime - we don't get what we want tomorrow.

 

[Raziel]

You are someone who clearly is very focused on statistics.... so here is one: An unforced passing error every three minutes....

Does that answer your question of what is more likely?

I'll give you an even better stat




But you will tell me, it's all the players, Frank isn't the one telling them to sit deep, be negative, don't lose the ball?

- Players are making errors because they don't know what they are supposed to do, or where to pass
- Players are not making progressive passes (5 in a game that we were actually good for 45 mins) because that is what they are instructed to do.

Here's more stats -






But I guess, none of our players can shoot either, nothing to do with how we play?

 

[Robspur12]

He is unable (for whatever reason, as you said) to implement said ideas, and that in itself is an indictment of him as a manger.

Given the sample size of the majority of footballers in the PL being massively over paid and utter drudgery, I will go with the first for many teams, not just Spurs, given I have seen the same film many times as a Spurs fan I put Spurs players inability to do it regularly also on the players.

I think Frank shoulders alot of the blame rightly so, but only the blind would keep giving some of these players a free pass on their ability to fcuk up under more than one manager

I certainly dont blame Frank for Vicario running out tbe box and kicking it at an opponent, nor player falling over the ball in attack, not being able yo take a throw in etc.

Here’s the thing. We know a lot of managers struggle to manage when having to complete in Europe concurrently with their domestic campaigns. Ange did, Conte has always struggled and in his last season even Poch saw our league form become more erratic partly due to having to negotiate so many games with a small injury prone squad.

TF has come in and immediately has to cope with CL and PL games as well as refocusing a squad coming off a very poor league campaign last season. It will take time to get his ideas across. Games are coming thick and fast no real time to get new ideas across or develop “pattern of play.” That’s where the patience from fans is needed. I think he is a good enough manager to achieve success here. But In the end it will be up to him to show that he can handle the pressure.

 

[Robspur12]

I'll give you an even better stat

View attachment 21146


But you will tell me, it's all the players, Frank isn't the one telling them to sit deep, be negative, don't lose the ball?

- Players are making errors because they don't know what they are supposed to do, or where to pass
- Players are not making progressive passes (5 in a game that we were actually good for 45 mins) because that is what they are instructed to do.

Here's more stats -


View attachment 21149

View attachment 21148

But I guess, none of our players can shoot either, nothing to do with how we play?

Excuse my ignorance mate. But the two stats are not unconnected i.e you cannot analyse them in isolation? Presumably if a team is making a lot of unforced passing errors it means their overall passing is not good so it is likely their “progressive passing stats” are going to be low too?

 

[Raziel]

Excuse my ignorance mate. But the two stats are not unconnected i.e you cannot analyse them in isolation? Presumably if a team is making a lot of unforced passing errors it means their overall passing is not good so it is likely their “progressive passing stats” are going to be low too?

I think it's all related, bricky passing, struggle to get the ball from back to front, progressive passing, inconsistent pressing, lack of shots.

Like we agreed earlier, call it time on training ground, time to get the ideas across, whatever he is trying to get across to the players isn't happening/working so far.

As with all these things time will tell.

Again, to his credit, the club also needs to fudging help him quickly.

 

[thfcsteff]

How do you get to know if a manager is a good long term fit when you sack them after 6 monhts-1 year?

The question still remains what he is a long term fit for. The club as we’ve always known it, or the current boardroom with it’s ‘new suave’ suits and analysts and data-driven decisions (before anyone pipes up, I don’t mind data at all but it cannot be the sole driver of a football club’s policies).
That’s what ALL the chat here doesn’t seem to acknowledge.
WHO is framing the vision of what this club is?
It is NOT just Frank. He can only do the job he has been hired to do to the best of his abilities. My question remains WHO concluded that his style and direction are where we want to go? That is not a positive or negative, it is a question.
Some have (IMO quite rightly) said that it must be primarly Johann Lange and to an extent, Paratici. Given Lange and Frank’s friendship, that’s one I’ll buy.
In which case Lange and Venkatesham need to back their man, publicly and in this window. Right now, TF is being left to take the punches (just like his predecessor was).

 

[thfcsteff]

I was afraid as much....

The problem is not that "he hasn't got the coaching to naturally have us passing, moving and attacking in ways that naturally create decent chances for the attackers" or that "the players look like they don't practice it much."

It is because - as @Bishop - so eloquently described yesterday.... the players lack basic passing skills. Otherwise they would not be making an unforced passing error every 3 minutes!! The only way that you can create "decent chances" in this situation is to throw them all in attack hoping a chance materialises by sheer force of numbers. Ange tried that last year (and he actually could play the only two decent passers in the squad - both currently injured) and we saw what was the result of that.....

So you are effectively saying that the same people responsible for hiring Thomas Frank have little clue when it comes to spotting competent footballers, let alone paying them vast sums of money and (in some cases) large transfer fees to procure their (by your definition bricky) services. And you are effectively saying that the manager who accepted the job this summer -and stated he was excited to ‘stand on the shoulders of others and their achievements’ to ‘build on the foundations set’ didn’t himself realize that this squad lacked ‘basic passing skills’? Again, no-one is saying this squad will win the league any time soon, but it is not being set up or used to maximise it’s biggest benefits.

 

[thfcsteff]

Whilst acknowledging we have lost every player involved in last season entire goal contributions and navigating the CL.

Frank needs to show more, Frank also is navigating a less than perfect Tottenham Storm, 4 months in. I don't understand why there is so much uproar acknowledging both sides.

Indeed.

 

[thfcsteff]

Maybe it's because my work requires evidence-based decision-making but for the life of me, and for my ignorance....

can you explain how "the way we are playing" results in a misplaced pass every three minutes???

Again, are you actually interested in a discussion/theory, or are you parking that question out there so as you can double/triple down?

 

[metalgear]

TF has come in and immediately has to cope with CL and PL games as well as refocusing a squad coming off a very poor league campaign last season. It will take time to get his ideas across. Games are coming thick and fast no real time to get new ideas across or develop “pattern of play.” That’s where the patience from fans is needed. I think he is a good enough manager to achieve success here. But In the end it will be up to him to show that he can handle the pressure.

to add to that, our transfers were done late.

i am unimpressed with TF but he needs the full season and better players starting to make a difference

 

[IulianSteaua]

interesting use of narrative to suit your story.

Chelsea sacked Maresca for his behaviour, not his ability or their league position - which is why today when Utd did the same to Amorim the first thing everyone assumed was it was to get Maresca before City do it when Pep leaves.

So Maresca and Amorim have gone because of their attitude and relationships not their league positions. Bit like Conte, and remember how that went for us?

To ask me where is the run of 8 wins in 10 coming from is weird - where did the run to the final and the victory in the Europa League last year come from? It came from 11 players beating the other 11 eleven over and over again. Have a look at how Villa have performed this season and tell me why we couldn't do the same.

It a faintly ridiculous question to ask in any case, as we don't have a crystal ball.

Rather than saying he's not done a good job until now, how about considering the context of how he is having to work? I posted another comment today highlighting that he is missing 124 goal contributions (goals and assists) from last season, at the current time. 65 odd of those pro-rata into the first 20 games of the season. Frank is literally grinding out results, as we have no creativity or fire power at the moment. I don't like the defensive bias he's using, but I understand it, and so, so many of our fans could do with considering this rather than subscribing to the Instagram/Sky Sports "one result and he's GHod, one result and he's gone" flimflam.

Football is not amazon prime - we don't get what we want tomorrow.

Our Europa League results came because we played against lesser competition than the PL. In the final we played a team that struggled as much as we did, the semi finals Bodo etc. We were one of the big favourites going in, followed the odds and some put us 1st favorite at the start of the competition. It was hardly a surprise. If this is the main reason you see a resurgence in our form, you have not a lot to stand on.
"Someone else did it" (Aston Villa), doesn't mean we are going to do it. Greece won the EURO 2004, imagine all the same status teams keeping their failing coaches because if Greece had done it, they could do it too. The question is why has Aston Villa done it and we haven't? The Aston Villa form is not a pro-Frank argument, it's an against-Frank one.
Missing Kulusevski, Solanke and Maddison might be a life line but we brought in similar valuable players like Xavi Simmons, Kudus and Kolo Muani. Plus a DM that can actually help the defence and have a very high ball winning and successful tackling performance like Palhinha, which would have helped Ange a lot.

 

[Finney Is Back]

You are someone who clearly is very focused on statistics.... so here is one: An unforced passing error every three minutes....

Does that answer your question of what is more likely?

Can you please point me to the source of that stat? (I like stats so am genuinely interested)

 

[Finney Is Back]

...17th

But winning the CL trophy I assume?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think it's all related, bricky passing, struggle to get the ball from back to front, progressive passing, inconsistent pressing, lack of shots.

Like we agreed earlier, call it time on training ground, time to get the ideas across, whatever he is trying to get across to the players isn't happening/working so far.

As with all these things time will tell.

Again, to his credit, the club also needs to fudging help him quickly.

I think it is getting across…. He sets up his teams not to play progressive passes. The horseshoe is a coached thing, it’s not something our players have suddenly decided to start doing under Frank.

 

[indospurs]

I say give TF a season, even two - we all know that teams to progress under a manager (coach?) vision needs time and windows to get players in and out

and he is doing it without a player(s) like Kane, Son, Berba, Keane, Bale type player in the squad, so he is being pragmatic and trying to stabilise the ship imho

against brentford away and palace, we got points, this is still a rebuilding phase without our more senior and better players in attack such as madders, kulu and solanke - Richi works damn hard but he isn't a clinical finisher and he needs a partner up front to take players away, he is a more instinctive finisher than one with a calm and methodical approach

at home v sunderland showed me we can go on the offensive but we still needed a senior player who happens to be a defender to score - I do believe the youngsters will do alright, thing is we don't have the luxury of time either

sacking TF - who do you want to get in? who will realistically do a good job? a second stellini?? will they get given time? i don't get that request, coz it's not an argument, no fan has come up with a clear vision

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I think it is getting across…. He sets up his teams not to play progressive passes. The horseshoe is a coached thing, it’s not something our players have suddenly decided to start doing under Frank.

It's true but, at the same time, even under Postecoglou, our midfielders were already exposed for their very poor passing ability, despite having more progressive options. During his second season, I remember reading a piece that claimed we had one of the worst midfields in the league when it came to pass completion.

Also, it's worth keeping in mind that passing is only half the problem - movement off the ball is just as important. For instance, a sideways pass to a team-mate running towards the opposition goal could prove a better attacking option than a so-called 'progressive' pass to a team-mate standing still, with his back on goal.

Anyway, if you look at other football fans forums, pretty much everyone agrees that Frank is a defensive coach. In all likelihood, we could be more efficient with more time and better players, but it's unlikely his style will ever be easy on the eye.