The 'is this an example where we miss a Modric/Moutinho/Sahin type' thread

[Gazza Dazzla]

Why exaggerate my points.? I did not say he was poor. It is hardly incredible to say Modric is better.

It is incredible that he only has 44 PL assists in his entire PL career and if you are honest, you will admit that is surprising.

Who do you think is better Fabregas or Scholes ?

Fabregas and scholes clearly don't play in the same position though. Like saying, whose better Alonso or Ozil!

However Scholes as a kid (up to about 7 or 8 years ago) did play in the same position as fabregas does and that would be a close contest!

Like Diego says, I'm not surprised by your opinion here based on your comments in the huddlestone thread, I just don't think you rate that type of player / position, which is fair enough and more an opinion on team playing style rather than individual players I would say?

 

[diego_maradona]

Why exaggerate my points.? I did not say he was poor. It is hardly incredible to say Modric is better.

It is incredible that he only has 44 PL assists in his entire PL career and if you are honest, you will admit that is surprising.

Who do you think is better Fabregas or Scholes ?

Difficult question if your talking both at their peak. Fabregas still has some way to go to match Scholes achievements in the game. I realise he is a World Cup and Euro winner, but that is partly due to the fact he is in an era of extremely gifted Spanish national side.

Look at Scholes goal return, particularly early years. He was scoring 10-15 goals in the premier league. Fabregas started to do that later in his arsenal days. Fabregas also had many assists. But I was hazard a guess that similar to Modric how often did Scholes have an assist to the assist? He simply cannot be accused of playing sideways football. His cross field passes are amongst the best and his ball retention incredible. He has been the engine for united for so long. I think it would be interesting to know how other pros would answer your question, and their thoughts on Scholes.

 

[diego_maradona]

He is most certainly a progressive footballer and not a sideways passer

 

[thfcsteff]

Nothing is wrong with the sideways pass pursue , but you need players to do more , obviously .

The point I have been making, is that Scholes has good passing accuracy stats and is hailed as a great passer This is misleading .

There is a degree of difficulty element and when this is taken into account , his passing stats are not among the best.

It is obviously easier to do a sideways pass to an unmarked player, than to try something else.

He did have a good scoring record when he was younger, I am not arguing with that.

Is there any stat which shows you where he moved after making these short, sideways passes? I think if you looked at his career highlights, you'd see that invariably he ended up in very dangerous, attacking positions. On Saturday, precisely because we defended the spaces in front of him and pushed him deep to operate near the halfway line, Scholes couldn't get into those little holes; the one time he did, he very very nearly crashed home the equalizer. We restricted him to swinging some absolutely superb 40 yard lateral 'play switchers' as is one of his trade-tools, and relied on structure, focus, diligence and mentality to deny the inside spaces. We also rode our luck it's fair to say. Sorry mate, but I cannot believe you do not see what Paul Scholes has done on a football pitch for all these years. As is so often the case, statistics without context are misleading.

 

[Robspur12]

Is there any stat which shows you where he moved after making these short, sideways passes? I think if you looked at his career highlights, you'd see that invariably he ended up in very dangerous, attacking positions. On Saturday, precisely because we defended the spaces in front of him and pushed him deep to operate near the halfway line, Scholes couldn't get into those little holes; the one time he did, he very very nearly crashed home the equalizer. We restricted him to swinging some absolutely superb 40 yard lateral 'play switchers' as is one of his trade-tools, and relied on structure, focus, diligence and mentality to deny the inside spaces. We also rode our luck it's fair to say. Sorry mate, but I cannot believe you do not see what Paul Scholes has done on a football pitch for all these years. As is so often the case, statistics without context are misleading.

TBH Steff stats just complicate matters as a former manager once said "flimflam baffles brains." Just look at where Man utd have been over the past decade and a half - has scholes been a part of that - of course yes! Has he played a bit part -no he has consistently scored goals and been the midfield anchor - the heartbeat of the team and a position where you can't carry someone. Scholes has been outstanding, up there for me with Hoddle and Gascoigne as a midfielder I think would get into any team here and abroad. Obviously CF can have his opinion but imo he has this one wrong.

 

[diego_maradona]

TBH Steff stats just complicate matters as a former manager once said "flimflam baffles brains." Just look at where Man utd have been over the past decade and a half - has scholes been a part of that - of course yes! Has he played a bit part -no he has consistently scored goals and been the midfield anchor - the heartbeat of the team and a position where you can't carry someone. Scholes has been outstanding, up there for me with Hoddle and Gascoigne as a midfielder I think would get into any team here and abroad. Obviously CF can have his opinion but imo he has this one wrong.

I think many football fans would say he was better than both. Over the course of his career.

 

[colin fishwick]

Going over the same old ground - but no one has admitted they are surprised by his low assists record. Stats are not useless all managers use them. On the one hand it is denied that Scholes passes sideways [ despite the evidence that he does ] yet on the other hand, it is said , that is the reason for his low assists record.

Once again the sideways short pass to an unmarked player is easier. The long crossfield pass , although easier than the short pass, is still easier than other passes.

Scholes could not play for Arseanal or Barca in an attacking position, he cannot and does not play quick one touch football. or is someone going to say he does?

IMO you do not understand the difference between the best foreign players and the best English ones [ which Scholes is ] . The pundits don't or won't admit it.

Both Hoddle and Gazza had the skills of the top foreign players, Scholes does not, he has skills , but he does not have the same level of technical ability, nor does Gerrard and Lampard. It is not an accident that England get outplayed by the top teams.

Our technical shortcomings are masked in the PL, because of the foreign players playing aside them.

BTW Scholes has earned about twice as many bookings as has assits in the PL.

 

[SUIYHA]

Going over the same old ground - but no one has admitted they are surprised by his low assists record. Stats are not useless all managers use them. On the one hand it is denied that Scholes passes sideways [ despite the evidence that he does ] yet on the other hand, it is said , that is the reason for his low assists record.

The low assist statistic does surprise me, and it is completely wrong. I can't get onto the team of your dreams link you posted, but the statbunker one is clearly only using data from later Premier League seasons, hence the major bias towards players from the second half of the 20 year Premier League period dominating the top of that list. Take a look at a few examples from early PL players and you'll see what I mean:

Darren Anderton - 18 - The guy who took all our corners and free-kicks for 12 years with only 18 assists?
Teddy Sheringham - 11 - He probably set up that many for Chris Armstrong in the 95/96 season alone.
Eric Cantona - 0 - Apparently the guy never set up a goal
Stuart Ripley - 4 - This man was the main winger for a team that finished 2nd in 1994 and then 1st in 1995, both in 42 game seasons. You really think he only got four assists in that entire time?

Clearly your figures are wrong. This one, taken from just over a year ago, has Scholes in 7th place in the all time list with 135 assists:

http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine...op-20-assists-tally-whos-made-most-goals?p=13


You also made the utterly bizarre statement that Scholes could not play in the Arsenal/Barcelona teams because he isn't good enough at fast, one touch passing. That's probably the best thing about his game! His overall output isn't as good in a goals/assists per game as Fabregas, but that's also because when Scholes was at his peak he played in a 4-4-2 and a lot of his best work was in getting the ball out to Giggs/Beckham on the wings to supply the strikers, whereas Fabregas played behind the main striker in a 4-3-3/4-5-1, therefore his role required far more end product. I have little doubt that Scholes could have scored just as many goals and made just as many assists if he'd been at that Arsenal team in his peak instead - in fact the only season he did play in this sort of role was when he played behind Ruud Van Nistelrooy in the 02/03 season. And look at his end product from that year.

This is quite a ridiculous argument that you're pursuing, and I don't know what more I can say other than...watch this video and read the comments of some of the very best players and managers that have encountered Scholes as team mates and rivals alike, and have queued up to sing his praises. Many of these are extremely arrogant players, world class in their own right, many of which played for rival clubs to Man Utd and would have every reason NOT to big him up the way they've done. You can't "fool" people into thinking you're this good:

[video=youtube;DTM72O95ISI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTM72O95ISI[/video]

 

[colin fishwick]

The low assist statistic does surprise me, and it is completely wrong. I can't get onto the team of your dreams link you posted, but the statbunker one is clearly only using data from later Premier League seasons, hence the major bias towards players from the second half of the 20 year Premier League period dominating the top of that list. Take a look at a few examples from early PL players and you'll see what I mean:

Darren Anderton - 18 - The guy who took all our corners and free-kicks for 12 years with only 18 assists?
Teddy Sheringham - 11 - He probably set up that many for Chris Armstrong in the 95/96 season alone.


Eric Cantona - 0 - Apparently the guy never set up a goal
Stuart Ripley - 4 - This man was the main winger for a team that finished 2nd in 1994 and then 1st in 1995, both in 42 game seasons. You really think he only got four assists in that entire time?

Clearly your figures are wrong. This one, taken from just over a year ago, has Scholes in 7th place in the all time list with 135 assists:

http://www.talksport.co.uk/magazine...op-20-assists-tally-whos-made-most-goals?p=13


You also made the utterly bizarre statement that Scholes could not play in the Arsenal/Barcelona teams because he isn't good enough at fast, one touch passing. That's probably the best thing about his game! His overall output isn't as good in a goals/assists per game as Fabregas, but that's also because when Scholes was at his peak he played in a 4-4-2 and a lot of his best work was in getting the ball out to Giggs/Beckham on the wings to supply the strikers, whereas Fabregas played behind the main striker in a 4-3-3/4-5-1, therefore his role required far more end product. I have little doubt that Scholes could have scored just as many goals and made just as many assists if he'd been at that Arsenal team in his peak instead - in fact the only season he did play in this sort of role was when he played behind Ruud Van Nistelrooy in the 02/03 season. And look at his end product from that year.

This is quite a ridiculous argument that you're pursuing, and I don't know what more I can say other than...watch this video and read the comments of some of the very best players and managers that have encountered Scholes as team mates and rivals alike, and have queued up to sing his praises. Many of these are extremely arrogant players, world class in their own right, many of which played for rival clubs to Man Utd and would have every reason NOT to big him up the way they've done. You can't "fool" people into thinking you're this good:

[video=youtube;DTM72O95ISI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTM72O95ISI[/video]

The link I posted for the assists was not the only one that has said it, I believe the Talk Sport one is wrong. When I have time I will post other links that give the lower figure.

The quotes from other players as I hace said before, are mostly from leading questions , from the English media . They like to com-pliment English players, when asked about them by English Journo's You could find quotes from them saying the same thing about Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard.

How many times has Scholes been in the World X1? That would be a good test. How many times ahs been in the World 22 at a World Cup or the Euros's?

And no. he cannot play the quick one touch football of Barca oe even a good Arsenal, no shame in that, but he does not have that in his locker.

 

[africanspurs]

Going over the same old ground - but no one has admitted they are surprised by his low assists record. Stats are not useless all managers use them. On the one hand it is denied that Scholes passes sideways [ despite the evidence that he does ] yet on the other hand, it is said , that is the reason for his low assists record.

Once again the sideways short pass to an unmarked player is easier. The long crossfield pass , although easier than the short pass, is still easier than other passes.

some of the stuff you said in that post is true..this whole issue for me personally stems from you insinuating that scholes can really pass in a progressive manner but mainly plays back wards passes and side 5 yard ones...which i think is completely wrong

can you get his assist record before he turned 30?

and he wont be assisting much based on the position on the pitch he occupies. i still cant believe you dont see this. Stop bringing up assist stats for someone that plays in a deep role....

and your saying that the cross field passes are easier than other passes? what other passes? the one that defoe made for bale? you dont think scholes can do that? if cross field passes were easier than most other passes then everyone would be doing it

next you'll hint that ramires is a better passer

 

[africanspurs]

i really should let this thing go. he isnt even a tottenham player and i dont really have much affection for him at all lol

 

[mudshark]

Applying the assist-count argument to Scholes sounds to me rather like saying X is a better actor than Y because he's planted more kisses on the leading lady.

 

[africanspurs]

Applying the assist-count argument to Scholes sounds to me rather like saying X is a better actor than Y because he's planted more kisses on the leading lady.

especially if Y plays the part or positioning of a homosexual

 

[mudshark]

I think you can only ever take an analogy so far

 

[colin fishwick]

some of the stuff you said in that post is true..this whole issue for me personally stems from you insinuating that scholes can really pass in a progressive manner but mainly plays back wards passes and side 5 yard ones...which i think is completely wrong

can you get his assist record before he turned 30?

and he wont be assisting much based on the position on the pitch he occupies. i still cant believe you dont see this. Stop bringing up assist stats for someone that plays in a deep role....

and your saying that the cross field passes are easier than other passes? what other passes? the one that defoe made for bale? you dont think scholes can do that? if cross field passes were easier than most other passes then everyone would be doing it

next you'll hint that ramires is a better passer

I accept he plays in a deeper role and is less likely to get assists than earlier in his career, I also accept he played more forward passes earlier in his career, but conversely, that meant his passing accuracy went down and he was not such a neat player.

He has changed his game, that in itself is good. Of course he can pay the sort of pass Defoe played on Saturday, but and this is an important point for me, NOT ENOUGH. Not as much as someone like Fabregas.

I will get the earlier assists record, I don't think 30 is the correct cut off though. 33 or 34 is when he changed positions.

His assists record in the last two years has gone down further, he has none so far, that is because he is playing in a deeper role.

The cross field passes are easier than a defence splitting one , easier than one that has to cut out players. It also has something to do, with how pressured the player is when making the pass. If you are receiving the ball from your goalie and not being pressure it is easier than playing one in the other half of the pitch, where you tend to have less, time and space. The cross field pass looks good, but flatters to deceive sometimes.

 

[spurspinter1]

Does anyone know how Moutinho's been doing with Porto this season so far?

Never really seen him bar the odd portugal game, so wasn't massively fussed when we didn't get him. Assuming there are a few die hard portugese league watchers who've watched him week in week out who can say whether he's maintained whatever form it was which made us so interested?

 

[thfcsteff]

Colin,

You have yet to respond to my question about a statistic which tracks his immediate movements AFTER he has played a 5 yard sideways ball.

Steff

 

[Robspur12]

I think many football fans would say he was better than both. Over the course of his career.

More consistent and more sucessful yes but technically I would say no. I know I'm bias but Glenn is the most technically gifted player I have ever seen and the reason I support Spurs.

 

[chicken_badge]

Alonso is a DM and always has been . Thudd, well yes he is world class, I reckon we could get about £35m for him, or maybe even get Stoke to take him for a season.

Modric does not get enough assists , but is a much better player than Scholes.

I'm with you and The Resistance when it comes to Scholes. Vastly overrated in my opinion, a midfielder who cannot tackle is not a midfielder. I don't think he would have made such an impact in a lesser squad. When Fergie came sniffing for Modric after Scholes "retired" last season my Man U mates tried to wind me up by saying they were buying Modric to replace Scholes. I said "Modric is a class above Scholes. If you want to replace Scholes you can buy Jermaine Jenas".
BUT I appreciate we are in the minority here, that's football, that's opinion.

However, I would LOVE to know who is going to give us £35mil for Tom Huddleston and I can't believe no ones asked you about this yet!!!!,

 

[WookieD]

Paul Scholes receives special praise: ‘In the last 15 to 20 years the best central midfielder that I have seen — the most complete — is Scholes. I have spoken with Xabi Alonso about this many times. Scholes is a spectacular player who has everything.

‘He can play the final pass, he can score, he is strong, he never gets knocked off the ball and he doesn’t give possession away. If he had been Spanish then maybe he would have been valued more.’

I assumed the Hudd comment was a joke.