The 'is this an example where we miss a Modric/Moutinho/Sahin type' thread

[colin fishwick]

I'm with you and The Resistance when it comes to Scholes. Vastly overrated in my opinion, a midfielder who cannot tackle is not a midfielder. I don't think he would have made such an impact in a lesser squad. When Fergie came sniffing for Modric after Scholes "retired" last season my Man U mates tried to wind me up by saying they were buying Modric to replace Scholes. I said "Modric is a class above Scholes. If you want to replace Scholes you can buy Jermaine Jenas".
BUT I appreciate we are in the minority here, that's football, that's opinion.

However, I would LOVE to know who is going to give us £35mil for Tom Huddleston and I can't believe no ones asked you about this yet!!!!,

I was being sarcastic

 

[SUIYHA]

The link I posted for the assists was not the only one that has said it, I believe the Talk Sport one is wrong. When I have time I will post other links that give the lower figure.

The quotes from other players as I hace said before, are mostly from leading questions , from the English media . They like to com-pliment English players, when asked about them by English Journo's You could find quotes from them saying the same thing about Rooney, Lampard and Gerrard.

How many times has Scholes been in the World X1? That would be a good test. How many times ahs been in the World 22 at a World Cup or the Euros's?

And no. he cannot play the quick one touch football of Barca oe even a good Arsenal, no shame in that, but he does not have that in his locker.

Sweet Jesus. You are abusing the right to have an opinion.

You instantly dismiss the talksport stats as wrong, even though it seems like it should be about right, yet you stick to the ridiculous notion that he only has 44 assists in the PL on no evidence other than a clearly wrong table that reckons Lee Sharpe and Andrei Kanchelskis only got three assists between them during their entire Premier League careers, despite being wingers for title winning teams in multiple seasons. Trust me, Scholes has got plenty of assists in his time. And even if it is less per game than Fabregas, as I said before, he has played a different position to him for most of his career. Only in the 02/03 season did he play behind a main striker, the rest of the time he played as a deeper midfielder in a flat 4-4-2, and he was outstanding in not only getting the ball forward to the strikers but even more so out to Giggs and Beckham who could supply the assists. By the time United started playing a 4-3-3 regularly, in the 07/08 season, Scholes was already 33 and couldn't make those late runs into the box any more. Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez didn't seem to have much trouble getting the ball though.

You also point to being in a World XI as a good judge of how good a player was, you know, somebody's opinion, yet you refuse to acknowledge the opinion of some of the all time greats who have massively praised Scholes. I'm assuming you didn't watch that video, because I'd be curious to know what questions a journalist could have asked to get answers like these from such legends of the game if they didn't really mean it:

"He's the best midielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years" - Xavi
"He is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him" - Pep Guardiola - I think these two know a thing or two about good midfielders, and the quick, one touch football you claimed Scholes doesn't have in his locker.

"He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League" - Cesc Fabregas
"Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership" - Thierry Henry - So do these two. And they played for a rival club.

"It's a shame he's not available to play for England. If he was, he'd be the first name in my squad" - Fabio Capello - This coming from a man who had Gerrard and Lampard available to him. Rooney too for that matter.

"I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is. Every one of us (midfielders) is just trying to become as good as him. Everyone can learn from Paul Scholes" - Edgar Davids - this is a man who played alongside the likes of Zidane, Xavi, Nedved and Seedorf

"He is the best midfielder I've seen in the last 15 or 20 years" - Xabi Alonso - Played alongside Xavi, Iniesta, Gerrard etc, and played for a rival club

"Scholes is undoubtedly the best player of his generation. He's almost untouchable in what he does. I never tire of watching him play. You rarely come across the complete footballer but Scholes is as close to it as you can get." - Zinedine Zidane - This guy is probably as close to the complete footballer as you got. What a compliment coming from him.

"Scholes is the best I've played with" - Cristiano Ronaldo
"The best I've played with, no question." - Wayne Rooney
"I've played with some great players in my time at United, but I would have to put Scholes down as the best" - Ryan Giggs - His team mates seem pretty unanimous and these guys have played with some real super stars in the past.


It's hardly someone going "ooh yes, he's a very good player". And to finish off, here's some good one touch passing, forwards, against Arsenal no less. Note that the chance Hernandez misses actually wouldn't have been a Scholes assist, yet the chance came from his brilliant pass:

[video=youtube;0RNL1-zWsng]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RNL1-zWsng[/video]

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm with you and The Resistance when it comes to Scholes. Vastly overrated in my opinion, a midfielder who cannot tackle is not a midfielder. I don't think he would have made such an impact in a lesser squad. When Fergie came sniffing for Modric after Scholes "retired" last season my Man U mates tried to wind me up by saying they were buying Modric to replace Scholes. I said "Modric is a class above Scholes. If you want to replace Scholes you can buy Jermaine Jenas".
BUT I appreciate we are in the minority here, that's football, that's opinion.

However, I would LOVE to know who is going to give us £35mil for Tom Huddleston and I can't believe no ones asked you about this yet!!!!,

If only that comment had even a teeny-tuny shred of truth about it, we might have seen some silverware whilst JJ haunted to lodge with his "potential"...

 

[colin fishwick]

Sweet Jesus. You are abusing the right to have an opinion.

You instantly dismiss the talksport stats as wrong, even though it seems like it should be about right, yet you stick to the ridiculous notion that he only has 44 assists in the PL on no evidence other than a clearly wrong table that reckons Lee Sharpe and Andrei Kanchelskis only got three assists between them during their entire Premier League careers, despite being wingers for title winning teams in multiple seasons. Trust me, Scholes has got plenty of assists in his time. And even if it is less per game than Fabregas, as I said before, he has played a different position to him for most of his career. Only in the 02/03 season did he play behind a main striker, the rest of the time he played as a deeper midfielder in a flat 4-4-2, and he was outstanding in not only getting the ball forward to the strikers but even more so out to Giggs and Beckham who could supply the assists. By the time United started playing a 4-3-3 regularly, in the 07/08 season, Scholes was already 33 and couldn't make those late runs into the box any more. Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez didn't seem to have much trouble getting the ball though.

You also point to being in a World XI as a good judge of how good a player was, you know, somebody's opinion, yet you refuse to acknowledge the opinion of some of the all time greats who have massively praised Scholes. I'm assuming you didn't watch that video, because I'd be curious to know what questions a journalist could have asked to get answers like these from such legends of the game if they didn't really mean it:

"He's the best midielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years" - Xavi
"He is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him" - Pep Guardiola - I think these two know a thing or two about good midfielders, and the quick, one touch football you claimed Scholes doesn't have in his locker.

"He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League" - Cesc Fabregas
"Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership" - Thierry Henry - So do these two. And they played for a rival club.

"It's a shame he's not available to play for England. If he was, he'd be the first name in my squad" - Fabio Capello - This coming from a man who had Gerrard and Lampard available to him. Rooney too for that matter.

"I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is. Every one of us (midfielders) is just trying to become as good as him. Everyone can learn from Paul Scholes" - Edgar Davids - this is a man who played alongside the likes of Zidane, Xavi, Nedved and Seedorf

"He is the best midfielder I've seen in the last 15 or 20 years" - Xabi Alonso - Played alongside Xavi, Iniesta, Gerrard etc, and played for a rival club

"Scholes is undoubtedly the best player of his generation. He's almost untouchable in what he does. I never tire of watching him play. You rarely come across the complete footballer but Scholes is as close to it as you can get." - Zinedine Zidane - This guy is probably as close to the complete footballer as you got. What a compliment coming from him.

"Scholes is the best I've played with" - Cristiano Ronaldo
"The best I've played with, no question." - Wayne Rooney
"I've played with some great players in my time at United, but I would have to put Scholes down as the best" - Ryan Giggs - His team mates seem pretty unanimous and these guys have played with some real super stars in the past.


It's hardly someone going "ooh yes, he's a very good player". And to finish off, here's some good one touch passing, forwards, against Arsenal no less. Note that the chance Hernandez misses actually wouldn't have been a Scholes assist, yet the chance came from his brilliant pass:

[video=youtube;0RNL1-zWsng]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RNL1-zWsng[/video]

The quotes are from leading questions, the World X1 means more because it is a poll, when others players are being compared . The best players are always picked Ronaldo, Messi for example.

As for the assists stats , please see these stats, I will post the official PL one, when I have time to get it. It shows as alluded to in these liinks Scholes has 33 and has a lot more bookings. Hardly evidence that he is the best attacking midfielder in the world. Would the best attacking midielder in the World really have more bookings than assists ?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_has_the_Highest_premiership_assists

Stiick Paul Scholes into this assits quiz and see what you get. http://www.sporcle.com/games/roberto_carlos/barclays-premier-league-most-assists-of-all-time

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120407195911AAFGWQc

 

[diego_maradona]

Sweet Jesus. You are abusing the right to have an opinion.

lol. that's how I'm feeling here.His whole argument is based on stats which seem dodgy at best

 

[colin fishwick]

lol. that's how I'm feeling here.His whole argument is based on stats which seem dodgy at best

So if they are proved correct, you will acccpt my arguments.

 

[thfcsteff]

Colin,

Mate.

You keep on ignoring my question. Are there any stats which show where Scholes moves to immediately after these short, sideways passes? Further, where the ball goes two passes on from said-sideways pass?

A final thought; assist stats are misleading. Defoe would not get the assist (or 'an' assist) stat for Bale's goal at Old Trafford, but if he doesn't make the run to take Evans out of it, Bale doesn't have the 1 on 1/space to run into. I would argue that Defoe was worth an assist for his off the ball movement. I wonder how many times in his career Paul Scholes has occupied defenders/sitting midfielders by making some runs to create space?

Steff

 

[SUIYHA]

So if they are proved correct, you will acccpt my arguments.

Actually seeing as I proved them wrong, you should drop the argument instead.

Anybody with half a brain cell would have seen a list exclusively of players from the second half of the Premier League era, with the likes of Simon Davies, Jermaine Pennant and Luis Boa Morte listed as having more assists than David Ginola, Gianfranco Zola, Juninho, Darren Anderton, Paul Merson, Steve McManaman...and of course DAVID BECKHAM, and realised that this list is clearly a load of brick. But no, you posted it anyway. The reason why all the lists you can find have Scholes with less assists than he should have compared to the appearances and yellow cards assists you can find is answered in one of the other links you posted - "The Premier League only started officially tracking assists in the 2000-01 season." Scholes played for six seasons before that, in which appearance and yellow card statistics WERE tracked.

I am now going to try and work out what "leading questions" journalists could have used to generate those answers about Scholes:

Reporter: "Welcome to Oldham, Xavi. Tell me, how do you feel Paul Scholes compares with the other footballers in this town?"
Xavi: "He's the best midielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years"

Reporter: "Ignore all non-ginger footballers Thierry, what do you think of Paul Scholes?"
Thierry Henry: "Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership"

Reporter: "It's a fine art being able to horrifically foul your opponents and get away with not being sent off. Man Utd have been pretty good at doing that over the years, who would you say was best?"
Ryan Giggs: "I've played with some great players in my time at United, but I would have to put Scholes down as the best"



Now I'll let you have a go. Please, think of some "leading questions", that could have led to players accidentally praising Scholes this much:


"I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is. Every one of us (midfielders) is just trying to become as good as him. Everyone can learn from Paul Scholes" - Edgar Davids

"Scholes is undoubtedly the best player of his generation. He's almost untouchable in what he does. I never tire of watching him play. You rarely come across the complete footballer but Scholes is as close to it as you can get." - Zinedine Zidane

 

[DMac]

I'm with you and The Resistance when it comes to Scholes. Vastly overrated in my opinion, a midfielder who cannot tackle is not a midfielder. I don't think he would have made such an impact in a lesser squad. When Fergie came sniffing for Modric after Scholes "retired" last season my Man U mates tried to wind me up by saying they were buying Modric to replace Scholes. I said "Modric is a class above Scholes. If you want to replace Scholes you can buy Jermaine Jenas".
BUT I appreciate we are in the minority here, that's football, that's opinion.

Scholes was a much better player than Modric. There's literally no player in the world right now who could replace him, only Xavi imo is on that level.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Actually seeing as I proved them wrong, you should drop the argument instead.

Anybody with half a brain cell would have seen a list exclusively of players from the second half of the Premier League era, with the likes of Simon Davies, Jermaine Pennant and Luis Boa Morte listed as having more assists than David Ginola, Gianfranco Zola, Juninho, Darren Anderton, Paul Merson, Steve McManaman...and of course DAVID BECKHAM, and realised that this list is clearly a load of brick. But no, you posted it anyway. The reason why all the lists you can find have Scholes with less assists than he should have compared to the appearances and yellow cards assists you can find is answered in one of the other links you posted - "The Premier League only started officially tracking assists in the 2000-01 season." Scholes played for six seasons before that, in which appearance and yellow card statistics WERE tracked.

I am now going to try and work out what "leading questions" journalists could have used to generate those answers about Scholes:

Reporter: "Welcome to Oldham, Xavi. Tell me, how do you feel Paul Scholes compares with the other footballers in this town?"
Xavi: "He's the best midielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years"

Reporter: "Ignore all non-ginger footballers Thierry, what do you think of Paul Scholes?"
Thierry Henry: "Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership"

Reporter: "It's a fine art being able to horrifically foul your opponents and get away with not being sent off. Man Utd have been pretty good at doing that over the years, who would you say was best?"
Ryan Giggs: "I've played with some great players in my time at United, but I would have to put Scholes down as the best"



Now I'll let you have a go. Please, think of some "leading questions", that could have led to players accidentally praising Scholes this much:


"I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is. Every one of us (midfielders) is just trying to become as good as him. Everyone can learn from Paul Scholes" - Edgar Davids

"Scholes is undoubtedly the best player of his generation. He's almost untouchable in what he does. I never tire of watching him play. You rarely come across the complete footballer but Scholes is as close to it as you can get." - Zinedine Zidane

So, if you were to only use those stats you could argue that Cantona was overated because he has no assits and Carlton Cole is the better player? hmmmm a touch embarrassing that this debate has gone on for 3 pages based on these "stats".

DMac, in his prime you'd probably have had Scholes ahead of Modric, but absolutely not for the last 3 or 4 years.

 

[Hootnow]

Sweet Jesus. You are abusing the right to have an opinion.

You instantly dismiss the talksport stats as wrong, even though it seems like it should be about right, yet you stick to the ridiculous notion that he only has 44 assists in the PL on no evidence other than a clearly wrong table that reckons Lee Sharpe and Andrei Kanchelskis only got three assists between them during their entire Premier League careers, despite being wingers for title winning teams in multiple seasons. Trust me, Scholes has got plenty of assists in his time. And even if it is less per game than Fabregas, as I said before, he has played a different position to him for most of his career. Only in the 02/03 season did he play behind a main striker, the rest of the time he played as a deeper midfielder in a flat 4-4-2, and he was outstanding in not only getting the ball forward to the strikers but even more so out to Giggs and Beckham who could supply the assists. By the time United started playing a 4-3-3 regularly, in the 07/08 season, Scholes was already 33 and couldn't make those late runs into the box any more. Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez didn't seem to have much trouble getting the ball though.

You also point to being in a World XI as a good judge of how good a player was, you know, somebody's opinion, yet you refuse to acknowledge the opinion of some of the all time greats who have massively praised Scholes. I'm assuming you didn't watch that video, because I'd be curious to know what questions a journalist could have asked to get answers like these from such legends of the game if they didn't really mean it:

"He's the best midielder I've seen in the last 15, 20 years" - Xavi
"He is the best midfielder of his generation. I would have loved to have played alongside him" - Pep Guardiola - I think these two know a thing or two about good midfielders, and the quick, one touch football you claimed Scholes doesn't have in his locker.

"He is the one whose level I aspire to. He is the best player in the Premier League" - Cesc Fabregas
"Without any doubt the best player in the Premiership" - Thierry Henry - So do these two. And they played for a rival club.

"It's a shame he's not available to play for England. If he was, he'd be the first name in my squad" - Fabio Capello - This coming from a man who had Gerrard and Lampard available to him. Rooney too for that matter.

"I'm not the best, Paul Scholes is. Every one of us (midfielders) is just trying to become as good as him. Everyone can learn from Paul Scholes" - Edgar Davids - this is a man who played alongside the likes of Zidane, Xavi, Nedved and Seedorf

"He is the best midfielder I've seen in the last 15 or 20 years" - Xabi Alonso - Played alongside Xavi, Iniesta, Gerrard etc, and played for a rival club

"Scholes is undoubtedly the best player of his generation. He's almost untouchable in what he does. I never tire of watching him play. You rarely come across the complete footballer but Scholes is as close to it as you can get." - Zinedine Zidane - This guy is probably as close to the complete footballer as you got. What a compliment coming from him.

"Scholes is the best I've played with" - Cristiano Ronaldo
"The best I've played with, no question." - Wayne Rooney
"I've played with some great players in my time at United, but I would have to put Scholes down as the best" - Ryan Giggs - His team mates seem pretty unanimous and these guys have played with some real super stars in the past.


It's hardly someone going "ooh yes, he's a very good player". And to finish off, here's some good one touch passing, forwards, against Arsenal no less. Note that the chance Hernandez misses actually wouldn't have been a Scholes assist, yet the chance came from his brilliant pass:

[video=youtube;0RNL1-zWsng]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RNL1-zWsng[/video]

Outstanding post. Colin, I'm gobsmacked that you continuously dismiss the arguments against your stats when they are so clearly wrong.

Do you genuinely believe that Kanchelskis and Sharpe got 3 assists in their whole careers?

And the leading questions thing is rubbish, there are very easy ways to outline how good a player you think someone is without declaring him the best player you've ever seen etc etc.

Paul Scholes has been a part of a team that has won 10 league titles, 3 FA cups and 2 Champions leagues. He wasn't an O'Shea style squad member for those trophies, he was one of their most vital players, playing in a central midfield two. He came back last season and changed things for them. At 37. I'm always a bit surprised by just how many Man utd players are apparently over-rated, its a wonder how they've managed to win so many trophies.

Incidentally, this is one of my favourite passes ever:

[video=youtube;RaCoAGfBkok]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCoAGfBkok[/video]

 

[spurspinter1]

Does anyone know how Moutinho's been doing with Porto this season so far?

Never really seen him bar the odd portugal game, so wasn't massively fussed when we didn't get him. Assuming there are a few die hard portugese league watchers who've watched him week in week out who can say whether he's maintained whatever form it was which made us so interested?

No one?

 

[thfcsteff]

Colin,

Mate. I will assume you feel that I have a very good point re: Scholes and stats, and don't wish to discuss it.

Steff

 

[colin fishwick]

Colin,

Mate.

You keep on ignoring my question. Are there any stats which show where Scholes moves to immediately after these short, sideways passes? Further, where the ball goes two passes on from said-sideways pass?

A final thought; assist stats are misleading. Defoe would not get the assist (or 'an' assist) stat for Bale's goal at Old Trafford, but if he doesn't make the run to take Evans out of it, Bale doesn't have the 1 on 1/space to run into. I would argue that Defoe was worth an assist for his off the ball movement. I wonder how many times in his career Paul Scholes has occupied defenders/sitting midfielders by making some runs to create space?

Steff

Steff, sorry for the delay, it was unintentional.

There are no stats for where Scholes moves to after his " sideways pass" or from where the ball goes to two passes on.

It would not be that relevant even if there was. It would be similar to getting stats from where the ball goes , two passes after the goalie rolls it out to the FB. It mostly depends on how good the FB is and how good the player is who receives the pass from the FB. The goalie does not get an assists twice. removed for it and quite rightly.

Basically the easy part is the 5 yard square pass to the unmarked player, if he is playing in a team with Ronaldo, Messi , or RVP there are going to be good things flowing from his square pass, if he is playing in a team with Carlton Cole, Downing, or Carlton Palmer, things are not going to turn out so well. In a similar way, it is why he has had less success with England than Utd.

The assists stats can be misleading over a short period, you are right Defoe deserved an assists on Saturday, he made the goal.

But over a 10 year period , he or someone else would get the assists and not be unlucky. A half a season, maybe even a full season, the stat may be distorted, but not 10 years. The best attacking midfielders will get a high assists stat.

I am not talking about now , when he is playing in a withdrawn role, you would not expect him to have a very high record of assists, he should have some though.

During the period he played as an attacking midfielder , it seems that he got more booking than assists, that is not a sign that he was the best attacking midfielder in the world, or even that close.

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff, sorry for the delay, it was unintentional.

There are no stats for where Scholes moves to after his " sideways pass" or from where the ball goes to two passes on.

It would not be that relevant even if there was. It would be similar to getting stats from where the ball goes , two passes after the goalie rolls it out to the FB. It mostly depends on how good the FB is and how good the player is who receives the pass from the FB. The goalie does not get an assists twice. removed for it and quite rightly.

Basically the easy part is the 5 yard square pass to the unmarked player, if he is playing in a team with Ronaldo, Messi , or RVP there are going to be good things flowing from his square pass, if he is playing in a team with Carlton Cole, Downing, or Carlton Palmer, things are not going to turn out so well. In a similar way, it is why he has had less success with England than Utd.

The assists stats can be misleading over a short period, you are right Defoe deserved an assists on Saturday, he made the goal.

But over a 10 year period , he or someone else would get the assists and not be unlucky. A half a season, maybe even a full season, the stat may be distorted, but not 10 years. The best attacking midfielders will get a high assists stat.

I am not talking about now , when he is playing in a withdrawn role, you would not expect him to have a very high record of assists, he should have some though.

During the period he played as an attacking midfielder , it seems that he got more booking than assists, that is not a sign that he was the best attacking midfielder in the world, or even that close.

Thanks for replying. I'll have to agree to disagree mate. In fact, when you say the 5 yard square pass is the easy part, I do not always agree. Simple football is often the hardest to play IMHO...anyway, we each have our views of Scholes and I think he's been an excellent player...Best, Steff