The 'is this an example where we miss a Modric/Moutinho/Sahin type' thread

[Mumorn]

he played left midfield for england most of the time.

 

[colin fishwick]

Just found a couple, he has 44 PL assists in total, Fabregas has 77. Scholes has played about 3 times as much as Fabregas . That gives you some idea of how much more potent Fabregas was.

He has , surprise, surprise none so far this season. Hazard already has 4 , he will probably surpass Scholes in a couple of years.

http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists
http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists

http://www.statbunker.com/football/ktg/index.php?PL=ktgalltime&Code=EPL&statType=assist

Like I said, he does not hurt you that much, better to let him have the ball the RVP or even Rooney

 

[thfcsteff]

I think Parker would have helped immensely.

You think Scholes would have had that much space if Parker was on the pitch? Scholes is amazing and if you stop him you stop half their play.

With Rooney and Scholes, plus Van Persie, Kagawa and Nani, there was a lot of creativity out there. It looked to me like there was a dedicated decision to actually defend deeper for once and force Scholes to drop deeper to dictate play. He is, frankly, nearly impossible to stop when he's on that form. Once we tightened up the space Rooney was occupying, and forced Scholes to operate deeper, we knew the game pattern. For me, if Ade had been fit and could've come on for JD with 20 mins left it would have relieved a lot of pressure...Scholes was brilliant though wasn't he? I mean, Fergie is fudged without him!

 

[colin fishwick]

he played left midfield for england most of the time.

He played on the left in the middle and on the right. He was not very good in any of the positions. Mainly because he was up against better players, when we played a top team

 

[Gutter Boy]

Just found a couple, he has 44 PL assists in total, Fabregas has 77. Scholes has played about 3 times as much as Fabregas . That gives you some idea of how much more potent Fabregas was.

He has , surprise, surprise none so far this season. Hazard already has 4 , he will probably surpass Scholes in a couple of years.

http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists
http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists

http://www.statbunker.com/football/ktg/index.php?PL=ktgalltime&Code=EPL&statType=assist

You are not alone mate - I've always thought Scholes is very overrated and remember being keen to see Gerrard or Lampard given a chance for England ahead of him.

 

[Kingdawson]

KD our new system only really works for away games and he set up is great. It is no coincidence our away form is better than home form even our performances are ten fold better.

AVB however has some work to do for our home games now we may not have the personnel for home games and someone like Moutinho is imperative for us. Need some creativity some fluidity - home games we are still fairly poor.

You're telling me? mate i've been saying that for a while now. It doesn't and will never work at home but he changed it second half against QPR and i'm hoping that we'll see the end to the pressing at the Lane.

 

[thfcsteff]

AVB should definitely have put someone on Scholes but I doubt either Dempsey or Siggy could have done the job. Scholes is extremely difficult to get near to, he's brilliant at making space for himself and laying the ball off or even making a 30 yard pass before you can touch him. Anyhow I got the impression that Dempsey was running of gas midway through the second half yesterday. Parker might have done the job for sure, but would he have gotten forward like Dempsey to score the goal?

Scholes' performance yesterday second half was breathtaking. One of the most sensational I have seen from a midfielder ever.

Which is why, IMHO, after the quick-fire exchange it was vital to cut-off that hole Rooney was in, do the dreaded 'defend deep' and stay focussed. The only problems we had (beyond the battering!) were with Walker and Caulker mis-communicating a couple of times (I thought Walker was dodgy second-half) but other than that, yup, if we'd tried to man-mark Scholes we'd have given up a player and allowed any one of VP/Rooney/Nani space to kill us. As it was, their second came during that time when we hadn't got to grips with 'the hole' and Rooney/RVP were having a field day in it! It was very very brave to let Scholes have the ball for the entire second-half, but most of the time he was deeper with it (thank GHod, if he'd played in the Rooney hole more it could've been a game-breaker).

@ Colin, not sure what you're seeing there, but I thought Scholes was excellent, as he usually is...as was said here by Spur of the moment, imtinkleible to man-mark unless you want to get mugged.

 

[colin fishwick]

sorry mate, i dont believe...olive branch i can offer is that you have taken that stat out of context..but in reality i dont think that stat exists at all to show that he plays more side and back ways passes than any other in the absence of playing significantly just as man forward or long diagonals

dude honestly, this scholes thing could really a a poison chalice.

I think it best you arm yourself to the teeth with figures before coming out with something as controversial as that

and as for the assist thing...what do you think of the likes of modric....., thudd....xabi alonso etc etc

Alonso is a DM and always has been . Thudd, well yes he is world class, I reckon we could get about £35m for him, or maybe even get Stoke to take him for a season.

Modric does not get enough assists , but is a much better player than Scholes.

 

[thfcsteff]

You're telling me? mate i've been saying that for a while now. It doesn't and will never work at home but he changed it second half against QPR and i'm hoping that we'll see the end to the pressing at the Lane.

I've been thinking a lot about this point that you have consistently made, fine one that it is, and I've concluded that when Chelski come to the Lane, we might well see a match which, to all intents and purposes, is like an away game for us in pattern!

 

[Wriggly]

Christ knows why Sahin was mentioned in this list, he's fudging rank lol. Change him with Cazorla.

Even though we are getting results now and playing some great stuff at times, I have always said we have a hole missing from the middle of the park. I'd like that filled with Moutinho. We need a playmaker.

Sahin lol.

 

[Raziel]

There is a stat, which when I have time shows he plays a lot of sideways passes. There is also a stat which shows he only has about 35 assists in the last 10 years.

I love the way Scholes has been elevated to this world class player in the last couple of years.

He was nearly always pretty cr ap for England and outshone by foreign players.

He is a good player and a very GHod one for his age, but he is not and has never has been the player he is made out to be.

There was no golden generation , it was all hype.

At the moment he is a neat tidy player, but he does not have the skill of Modric for example. He is miles behind Fabregas, he does not posses the skill of any of the really top foreign players. They can do so much more with the ball.

He does simple well and very often now. he used to score, but fair enough that has gone with age.

When he played for England , he was not liked and everyone wanted him dropped, people forget.

Thank you, add in his cripple type tackles, one of these overrated in hindsight.

Yet my post to the same point in another thread was deemed "stupidest thing someone had ever seen on this forum" (which btw, probably meant they had spent all of a day on this board).

 

[braineclipse]

Just found a couple, he has 44 PL assists in total, Fabregas has 77. Scholes has played about 3 times as much as Fabregas . That gives you some idea of how much more potent Fabregas was.

He has , surprise, surprise none so far this season. Hazard already has 4 , he will probably surpass Scholes in a couple of years.

http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists
http://www.theteamofyourdreams.co.u...eam_type=points&league=1&season=&type=assists

http://www.statbunker.com/football/ktg/index.php?PL=ktgalltime&Code=EPL&statType=assist

Like I said, he does not hurt you that much, better to let him have the ball the RVP or even Rooney

You cannot judge a player just on goals and assists. Statisticism at it's best if that was a word, and it should be.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1355726/Xavi-interview-Paul-Scholes-best-midfielder-20-years.html

What Xavi thought about Scholes...

 

[colin fishwick]

You cannot judge a player just on goals and assists. Statisticism at it's best if that was a word, and it should be.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1355726/Xavi-interview-Paul-Scholes-best-midfielder-20-years.html

What Xavi thought about Scholes...

I would rather have assists and goals than hype.

 

[milo]

I'm struggling to think of a better British midfielder than Scholes since Gazza. He's a fantastic player who always uses the ball intelligently and his short range passing is amongst the best around. In his prime he could have started for any club or country in the world.

 

[Robspur12]

I really don't get this Scholes is overrated stuff Is it just crazy Spurs fans stuff? Sorry but he is miles ahead of Modric in so many ways - dictating play, scoring goals are just 2. He is 37 years old and he ran the show yesterday in the 2nd half. That Utd got any where near City was a large part down to him. Forget stats probably every Premier League manager since the dawn of the league would have him in a heartbeat. Brilliant player.

 

[braineclipse]

I would rather have assists and goals than hype.

Any responses to the things Xavi said?

I mean, I could try to formulate an argument myself, but why bother when one of the best midfielders of this generation has already done so.

Do you at least accept that there might be something Scholes does that you just aren't picking up on?

 

[milo]

I really don't get this Scholes is overrated stuff Is it just crazy Spurs fans stuff? Sorry but he is miles ahead of Modric in so many ways - dictating play, scoring goals are just 2. He is 37 years old and he ran the show yesterday in the 2nd half. That Utd got any where near City was a large part down to him. Forget stats probably every Premier League manager since the dawn of the league would have him in a heartbeat. Brilliant player.

And not just Premier League, he could have bossed La Liga and Serie A too

 

[colin fishwick]

Any responses to the things Xavi said?

I mean, I could try to formulate an argument myself, but why bother when one of the best midfielders of this generation has already done so.

Do you at least accept that there might be something Scholes does that you just aren't picking up on?

I did respond , I said I would rather have goals and assists than hype.

I( have heard these quotes before and they are nearly all the result of leading questions from the British media.

I don't think you can get away and dismiss the stats so easily. He is lauded in the media , because he is English ,like the other so called " golden generation " that is hype.

The assists stats are facts not hype. They can't be dismissed so easily, for an attacking midfielder who has a low assists record , is a bit like a striker who does not score goals. it is a fundamental flaw.

But lets look at his game, his main game atm, is the square pass to the unmarked player . Like other English players he is not as agile and cannot improvise like the top foreign players, they can deal with the ball in a tight spot and with a deft touch control the ball and start or continue an attack.

He does not have the technical ability of a Modric, Fabregas, Mata, Hazard, Silva and many others. The last English midfielder who had that was Gazza.

He is not a great dribbler, he is not a great tackler. He is not great at setting up chances for others, by clever, perfectly weighted defense splitting passes.

BTW I am not saying he is not a good player,like Giggs he has adapted his game very well. Giggs was a bit special when younger.

He is also a very dirty player, but that is another matter.

 

[Raziel]

I'm struggling to think of a better British midfielder than Scholes since Gazza. He's a fantastic player who always uses the ball intelligently and his short range passing is amongst the best around. In his prime he could have started for any club or country in the world.

Might say something about British players more than Scholes ..

 

[africanspurs]

There is a stat, which when I have time shows he plays a lot of sideways passes. There is also a stat which shows he only has about 35 assists in the last 10 years.

okay right, i would still like to see that stat. cause like i said i dont believe it, and you have to also put it together with what he does overall...cause if someone plays the most passes in the world chances are that his tally of every category will mount up to more than more players. the key is the proportion of passing types more than anything

and once again, i dont understand what assists have to do with what you are inferring about him only passing square and near and rarely playing venturing passes. treat me like a 2 year old and hand hold me through the whole thing....scholes has less assists which means what about passing to the player 50 yards on the wing who supplies the cross that gets the assist. what is it about being the key supplier to the assister that makes his lack of assists show that he cant provide those passes to the assisters?

I love the way Scholes has been elevated to this world class player in the last couple of years.

it really wasnt in the last couple of years , it was since he got moved into the support striker and then midfield maestro positions that he really came into his own. he was world class then, you know...a key figure in a team that has won the CL...TWICE. if you dont have te right to lobby for world class after that then i dont know what

He was nearly always pretty cr ap for England and outshone by foreign players.

didnt they play him on the left for england? not to mention that in general the WHOLE england team is crap when they get together. i take it then that all english players are crap?

He is a good player and a very GHod one for his age, but he is not and has never has been the player he is made out to be.

this bit could be unnecessarily debated. could you please clarify what exactly he is made out to be?

There was no golden generation , it was all hype.

i can agree with this. but its english thing. think it meant that it was the most talented generation for quite a while?

At the moment he is a neat tidy player, but he does not have the skill of Modric for example. He is miles behind Fabregas, he does not posses the skill of any of the really top foreign players. They can do so much more with the ball.

goal posts are shifting slightly now...are we still talking about his passes, the type of passes he makes and the influence he has on a game? or are we talking about all round on the ball skills which isnt what you started out saying in the first place...you know the whole "5 yards square and backwards and RARELY plays forward balls" etc. cause i'm trying not to get into an unnecessary debate about people skills sets and their validity on being in a top class category based on their key tasks in a given system. paul scholes being a deep lying orchestrator with passing ability like he does..does not need to do step over and carry the ball.....like modric, or he doesnt need to venture forward when he has defensive responsibilities more than those that play furthest forward in a midfield 5...like cesc. Scholes has his job and if he does it well then he is a good player.

its almost like saying that maldini was not world class cause he didnt have the skill set of zidane. one person has a job to do and how they do it is irrelevant as long as it gets done.
i'll tell you this now , if modric could pick a pass like scholes can he wouldn't need to be carrying the ball to the zones to make life easier for himself

He does simple well and very often now. he used to score, but fair enough that has gone with age.

he used to score when he was younger and playing a more dynamic style in a further forward position.....as a support striker or attacking midfielder...its a positional issue...if you arent in those positions on average then you will not have the higher probability or opportunities to score

When he played for England , he was not liked and everyone wanted him dropped, people forget.

i dont remember it like that tbh