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The 'deeper one of the double pivot' midfielder thread

braineclipse said:
No. I don't it proves anything when Bentaleb looked like our only read DM option. Seems pretty standard for our strategy when we have only one capable player for a role:

1. Try to sign the best player possible. If that fails:
2. Trust a young player with real talent to step it up.

Away to United with Mason returning from injury Poch chose Dier and Bentaleb. Again I don't think this tells us much...

It might be that Pochettino agrees with you and sees Bentaleb as better for a B2B role in the future. If that's the case a backup DM makes sense, if he also sees him as not really even capable in the deeper role at this point. For me he seems better for the deeper role, but I accept that predicting what a young talented player's best role will be is speculative most of the time. I have seen no real sign that Pochettino sees Bentaleb more as a B2B player though. And for me I would rather see us give game time to our clearly very talented young players rather than to "backup options".
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Absolutely, but I'd give them time in positions where I feel they can make the most impact and disrupt the current general solidity of the team to the least extent: to my mind, that would involve Bentaleb being given a run in Dembele's place, not Dier's. The logical youngster to give playing time to over Dier if we are serious about a like-for-like swap is Veljkovic: however, it's fairly clear that we want to get rid of him for whatever reason (or, more accurately, he doesn't want to stay for whatever reason), so there's no young player to fit into the side over Dier without having to change the way we play to an extent. Just because we've got a good crop of youth coming through doesn't mean we have options everywhere that can seamlessly fit into the side: sometimes, we will need backup options despite the glut of players we have.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I think there is a need for some direct like for like cover for Dier. Because of his emergence the double pivot has well and truly gone.

Dier is a solid (solid as you can get) screen for the back four, a traditional holding midfielder, that can cope on his own if he has too. A by product of this is the other midfielders can do as they like safe in the knowledge that Eric is there. They still defend/press as that's the way we play.

Another positive outcome is all of Mason,Nabil,Dembele,Alli benefit from this as they are not looking over their shoulders so much making sure they're not f*cking up defensively, but focusing forward, being creatively minded or using b2b power. All these things are far more in harmony with their natural game.

I think Nabil, Dembele or even Toby could do a good job, as long as we're not weakening other areas by shifting them. Like Kane he will need a rest, starting next thursday.

Edit:Thats why i thought Veljkovic would at least be with the squad. Pretty much the only player doing the same as Dier. ie CH doin th DM transition, and by all reports doing it well. Head scratcher.
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Despite all the evidence in the Dier thread showing otherwise.

It's bit of an insult to Dier describing him as a traditional holding midfielder when he's so much more. Fortunately there's no space in the modern game for a traditional DM.
 
DubaiSpur said:
Absolutely, but I'd give them time in positions where I feel they can make the most impact and disrupt the current general solidity of the team to the least extent: to my mind, that would involve Bentaleb being given a run in Dembele's place, not Dier's. The logical youngster to give playing time to over Dier if we are serious about a like-for-like swap is Veljkovic: however, it's fairly clear that we want to get rid of him for whatever reason (or, more accurately, he doesn't want to stay for whatever reason), so there's no young player to fit into the side over Dier without having to change the way we play to an extent. Just because we've got a good crop of youth coming through doesn't mean we have options everywhere that can seamlessly fit into the side: sometimes, we will need backup options despite the glut of players we have.
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Except going by everything that happened last season Pochettino seems to rate Bentaleb in that deeper central midfield role...
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
I think there is a need for some direct like for like cover for Dier. Because of his emergence the double pivot has well and truly gone.

Dier is a solid (solid as you can get) screen for the back four, a traditional holding midfielder, that can cope on his own if he has too. A by product of this is the other midfielders can do as they like safe in the knowledge that Eric is there. They still defend/press as that's the way we play.

Another positive outcome is all of Mason,Nabil,Dembele,Alli benefit from this as they are not looking over their shoulders so much making sure they're not f*cking up defensively, but focusing forward, being creatively minded or using b2b power. All these things are far more in harmony with their natural game.

I think Nabil, Dembele or even Toby could do a good job, as long as we're not weakening other areas by shifting them. Like Kane he will need a rest, starting next thursday.

Edit:Thats why i thought Veljkovic would at least be with the squad. Pretty much the only player doing the same as Dier. ie CH doin th DM transition, and by all reports doing it well. Head scratcher.
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Agree with that, we have to hope he stays fit because unless w purchase a alternative we would be in trouble again with Bentaleb and Mason.
 
scaramanga said:
Despite all the evidence in the Dier thread showing otherwise.

It's bit of an insult to Dier describing him as a traditional holding midfielder when he's so much more. Fortunately there's no space in the modern game for a traditional DM.
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Hardly an insult. It's not like ive gone all Cantona and called him a water carrier:)......most of what he does is defensive and he plays in midfield. Have i missed something?

As for him being more than that, he certainly is, mainly (as i have mentioned many times) thanks to 7 years at S.Lisbon. eg he plays RB and starts crossing the ball like no-one else at the club can.
 
braineclipse said:
Except going by everything that happened last season Pochettino seems to rate Bentaleb in that deeper central midfield role...
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And, going by our quest for options at DM this season and Bentaleb's defensive inferiority in that role when compared to Dier, I'd argue that the opposite could (very possibly) be the case now. It's a matter of differing viewpoints based on the evidence presented at different times: let's see how it pans out. :) Until Bentaleb's back, given a role at DM and proves that he won't be shakier than Dier in that role, I'd argue that we need a utility DM as backup if we want to avoid a partial reversion to the defensive instability of last season.
 
Gutter Boy said:
We don't play with a DM.

Dier and Alli/Mason/Dembele often line up simply right and left
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No.



Dier plays a defensive role. He drops between the centre backs. He plays centre back when a CB roams forward. He is nearly always the deeper midfielder picking up the ball. You and Scaramanga might argue some triviality about DM and passing ability and 'destroyer' but clearly, clearly, CLEARLY Dier plays primarily as a defensive shield for the defence. And we love him for it.
 
Bullet said:
No.



Dier plays a defensive role. He drops between the centre backs. He plays centre back when a CB roams forward. He is nearly always the deeper midfielder picking up the ball. You and Scaramanga might argue some triviality about DM and passing ability and 'destroyer' but clearly, clearly, CLEARLY Dier plays primarily as a defensive shield for the defence. And we love him for it.
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I agree, but you do know you are wasting your breath with some.
 
Gutter Boy said:
We don't play with a DM.

Dier and Alli/Mason/Dembele often line up simply right and left
Click to expand...

Thats how it is portrayed on the 4-2-3-1 graphic and is quite possibly how even Poch envisaged it when Dier started being picked (ie a replacement in the double pivot)

When Mason/Bentaleb filled those positions last season there was definately an emphasis on each of them being constantly aware of what each other was doing. (perhaps that is where it went wrong sometimes?)

But either by design or realisation things have changed as Dier,by instinct, has that defensive mindset from the get go. So much so that the midfield partner is free to be much more expressive.

If Jan/Toby need help in behind (tracking runners, last ditch tackles), the fb area need covering as they're caught up field, tackles and interceptions in front of the four, clearing headers from long balls, dropping in between jan/Toby when we have the ball are all the things i see dier do, his partner (whoever) i just don't see dedicating himself to these tasks (and may be now doesn't have to). This is a change to last year when the roles appeared equal.

Whatever it is it appears to be working better.

(and as Mason and Bentaleb have retreated from playing much of their youth football from further up the pitch, i allow them some slack on the defensive side, but both are smart enough to change their game)
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Thats how it is portrayed on the 4-2-3-1 graphic and is quite possibly how even Poch envisaged it when Dier started being picked (ie a replacement in the double pivot)

When Mason/Bentaleb filled those positions last season there was definately an emphasis on each of them being constantly aware of what each other was doing. (perhaps that is where it went wrong sometimes?)

But either by design or realisation things have changed as Dier,by instinct, has that defensive mindset from the get go. So much so that the midfield partner is free to be much more expressive.

If Jan/Toby need help in behind (tracking runners, last ditch tackles), the fb area need covering as they're caught up field, tackles and interceptions in front of the four, clearing headers from long balls, dropping in between jan/Toby when we have the ball are all the things i see dier do, his partner (whoever) i just don't see dedicating himself to these tasks (and may be now doesn't have to). This is a change to last year when the roles appeared equal.

Whatever it is it appears to be working better.

(and as Mason and Bentaleb have retreated from playing much of their youth football from further up the pitch, i allow them some slack on the defensive side, but both are smart enough to change their game)
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The graphics also show Alli playing deeper than Dembele, which is wrong.

We haven't played 4-2-3-1 since Alli and Dembele started playing together, it's much closer to a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Hardly an insult. It's not like ive gone all Cantona and called him a water carrier:)......most of what he does is defensive and he plays in midfield. Have i missed something?

As for him being more than that, he certainly is, mainly (as i have mentioned many times) thanks to 7 years at S.Lisbon. eg he plays RB and starts crossing the ball like no-one else at the club can.
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You see, I think most of what he does is passing. He defends, but so does everyone else in our system.

The two most important facets of our system (IMO) are the press and the ability to pass quickly and reliably with good movement off the ball. OK, that's three looking at it written down but in my head the passing and moving are intrinsically linked.

A DM wouldn't normally be a natural fit for any of those roles
 
Gutter Boy said:
Heat maps show you can't tell which of our CMs is Dier vs any of our others
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A heat map vaguely shows average positions over 90 minutes. It does not show the attacking or defensive phases. It doesn't show where the opposition are. The average is very misleading.

I'm talking about the relative positions of the 2 deepest midfielders during the game, it is clearly clear that Dier is the deeper and more defensive.
 
Bullet said:
No.



Dier plays a defensive role. He drops between the centre backs. He plays centre back when a CB roams forward. He is nearly always the deeper midfielder picking up the ball. You and Scaramanga might argue some triviality about DM and passing ability and 'destroyer' but clearly, clearly, CLEARLY Dier plays primarily as a defensive shield for the defence. And we love him for it.
Click to expand...

blasphemer.jpg
 
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