Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Horses for courses. Against the Lambert types I'd have him in there all day. Against west ham in the cup during the week he would have been perfect.
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Tactics Thread
- Thread starter diego_maradona
- Start date
It was fascinating watching the game develop in the second half. It was incredible that with our tails up just how high we pressed, and also how light and quick we were on our feet. I just watched the game back now and especially when Bentelab and Chadli are on the pitch we are snapping away as soon as a Soton player touches the ball. This is what Pochettino has been getting the plaudits for.
At this stage we had:
-------------Soldado-------Adebayor-------------
Siggy------Bentelab------Eriksen----------Chadli
Yet we never looked like we were outnumbered in midfield.
1) Because Ade and Soldado were the first line of defence. They worked so so hard.
2) The nature of Chadli and Siggy to drift infield. This double "wonky" meant we completely outnumbered them at times, but more impressively we did it together. It wasn't one goes and presses and then Sandro or Dembele or Paulinho are further behind. It was BANG, one goes in, BANG then goes the second challenge, and it was a really quick turnover of possession and transition.
I'm not sure whether it was a tactical stroke of genius or just the players and their intuitive nature that helped us in this instance.
If we do want to make this 4-4-2 or some variant of it work, Soldado and Ade HAVE to work as hard as they did today. If they don't then we might concede a hell of a lot.
There were clear issues in leaving ourselves exposed too. Sandro coming back could provide that natural cover, but at what cost. Do we need Eriksen in CM? I like it personally. I also think Eriksen could work of the left and Lennon/Townsend/Lamela/Chadli off the right.
One thing I'm certain of though is I think Ade and Soldado on this form and this work ethic will frighten the pants off a lot of PL teams.
At this stage we had:
-------------Soldado-------Adebayor-------------
Siggy------Bentelab------Eriksen----------Chadli
Yet we never looked like we were outnumbered in midfield.
1) Because Ade and Soldado were the first line of defence. They worked so so hard.
2) The nature of Chadli and Siggy to drift infield. This double "wonky" meant we completely outnumbered them at times, but more impressively we did it together. It wasn't one goes and presses and then Sandro or Dembele or Paulinho are further behind. It was BANG, one goes in, BANG then goes the second challenge, and it was a really quick turnover of possession and transition.
I'm not sure whether it was a tactical stroke of genius or just the players and their intuitive nature that helped us in this instance.
If we do want to make this 4-4-2 or some variant of it work, Soldado and Ade HAVE to work as hard as they did today. If they don't then we might concede a hell of a lot.
There were clear issues in leaving ourselves exposed too. Sandro coming back could provide that natural cover, but at what cost. Do we need Eriksen in CM? I like it personally. I also think Eriksen could work of the left and Lennon/Townsend/Lamela/Chadli off the right.
One thing I'm certain of though is I think Ade and Soldado on this form and this work ethic will frighten the pants off a lot of PL teams.
I would put Sandro in as soon as available for Bentelab, we need the cover
Siggy/Dembele did not play that well for me, I would go for Lennon instead
Chadli -Sandro -Eriksen/Holtby - Lennon/Lamela would be my choice now
Agree re Soldado/Ade.
I think we should evolve this discussion and talk about if we are having two up front (as most of us are seeing the merit of right now), what variants of the 4-4-2 are there? Or do we use as Glenn was suggesting, a fluid shape change 3-5-2?
I think the personnel chosen dictates the shape largely. One thing most of us can agree on is today we looked like me definitely missed our defensive shield (ie. Sandro or even Capoue).
So with this in mind the first thing having a DM in there would suggest is some for of a diamond with Sandro at the lower point.
4-4-2 Wide diamond
Left and right? Well Lennon and Townsend are very much "chalk on boots" wingers. They'll make the pitch big. They'll also leave us horrendously outnumbered against a team like Arsenal or would hav the freedom of the world to waltz through our CM and completely play around Sandro.
4-4-2 Narrow diamond
Chadli, Lamela, Siggy, even Eriksen could all potentially be deployed as left and right points of our diamond. These players have a natural tendency to drift infield meaning our numbers are boosted in the midfield battle. Pitch does become narrow and would rely on a good technical level from the players deployed.
"The wonky"
Yes the famous africanspurs "wonky". Kind of made a comeback today. But today was almost a double wonky with both Lamela and Siggy drifing inside in what often looked like a flat but narrow 4 in the middle. The ideal scenario in this formation was when we were bedding in Modric and he lined on the left and Lennon right. It worked. And it worked well, until the emergence of Bale. He made it impossible to deploy the wonky and it effectively got put back on the top shelf where it has been gathering dust until now.
The most incredible thing is, with an astute tactician at the helm who isn't too egotistical to simply say "we're tottenham hotspur and you should change your team to cope with us", could really make use of this squad in the right scenarios having done their research on the specific opponent for that game.
We have the tools, now we just need to use them right.
I think the personnel chosen dictates the shape largely. One thing most of us can agree on is today we looked like me definitely missed our defensive shield (ie. Sandro or even Capoue).
So with this in mind the first thing having a DM in there would suggest is some for of a diamond with Sandro at the lower point.
4-4-2 Wide diamond
Left and right? Well Lennon and Townsend are very much "chalk on boots" wingers. They'll make the pitch big. They'll also leave us horrendously outnumbered against a team like Arsenal or would hav the freedom of the world to waltz through our CM and completely play around Sandro.
4-4-2 Narrow diamond
Chadli, Lamela, Siggy, even Eriksen could all potentially be deployed as left and right points of our diamond. These players have a natural tendency to drift infield meaning our numbers are boosted in the midfield battle. Pitch does become narrow and would rely on a good technical level from the players deployed.
"The wonky"
Yes the famous africanspurs "wonky". Kind of made a comeback today. But today was almost a double wonky with both Lamela and Siggy drifing inside in what often looked like a flat but narrow 4 in the middle. The ideal scenario in this formation was when we were bedding in Modric and he lined on the left and Lennon right. It worked. And it worked well, until the emergence of Bale. He made it impossible to deploy the wonky and it effectively got put back on the top shelf where it has been gathering dust until now.
The most incredible thing is, with an astute tactician at the helm who isn't too egotistical to simply say "we're tottenham hotspur and you should change your team to cope with us", could really make use of this squad in the right scenarios having done their research on the specific opponent for that game.
We have the tools, now we just need to use them right.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Tbf we played the wonky under George graham as well. Ginola the winger / genius, with leonhardson the other side playing more narrow and Carr bombed down the right to give a bit of balance. Worked well at times, then graham decided to sell our best player, what a complete tool!
Leonhardsen lol. Described by Egil Olsen as the best player in the world... without the ball
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
I used to hate him! It annoyed me that he was so fit, because it just meant that he was always near the ball to **** it up! The perfect George graham player!
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
that there is a team IMO
El Guepardo
Rafael Van Der Vaart
...that is missing Sandro?
And Dawson still in there?! No thanks. Sandro ahead of Capoue, Holtby ahead of Dembele and Vertonghen ahead of Dawson and Lamela ahead of Lennon and we'd be getting there.
And Dawson still in there?! No thanks. Sandro ahead of Capoue, Holtby ahead of Dembele and Vertonghen ahead of Dawson and Lamela ahead of Lennon and we'd be getting there.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
no way...the reason i say this is because neither flank men actively came narrow in the complete mission of changing formation when ginola played.
the wonky now is like two or three formations in one, during possesion, and its both counter attacking transition and can be possesion based
dont get me wrong i am sure its been played a million times by teams in the past but for us i think we really gave it life under Jol...with YP Lee working that entire left flank....literally for stretches we would just be rocking a 3 5 2 even though the formation was 442
to say that i am pleased and excited about this being a potential playable formation is an understatement
i'm just said about solly , i was certain this would be his break out game........just goes to show though that all those people saying he would have scored 5 against sunderland were talking a lot of hear say and speculation
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
yeah sandor, in all the excitement i forgot about him...capoue would do well too btw
That's because Sandro and Vertonghen are injured ATM and it was before any news of Lennon's injury.
clownfoot
Goran Bunjevcevic
I didn't come online yesterday so don't know whether this got much discussion. Hoddle was talking about the fluid 3-5-2 being a good formation to counteracting the 4-5-1 (4-3-3-) formation that is popular at the moment. An example of it being effective this season is Hull against Liverpool. Bruce, a manager not known for his technical nouse, outsmarted Rodgers on this occasion using the 3-5-2 formation. So it can be done.
That said, Hoddle's preferred starting X1 that has been posted on here did strike me as worrying
nelto
Sergei Rebrov
I know and I agree. I'm certainly not advocating getting rid of Daws. I'd just like to see a Verts and Vlad partnership. Might be a bit scary (as African says) against a Fat Sam aerial bombardment, but hopefully Walker and Rose/Benny would help to cut out crosses before they get to their target. Sandro in front of them would help as well. I think there would be some classy passes and breakouts from defence with those two in the middle.
-----------------Lloris--------------------
Walker---Chiriches --Vertonghen--Rose/BAE
Lennon---Sandro----Eriksen-------Lamela
----------Soldado----Adebayor------------
Subs/cover: Sigurdsson/Holtby/Paulinho/Dembele for Eriksen, Townsend/Chadli for left or right midfield as required.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
A massively important part of the jigsaw was back yesterday.... Danny Rose
Love him or hate him him offers genuine width and attacking efforts from full back on our weakest side and he covers a **** load of ground!!!!
Yep there are better out there but not as many that work as hard as he does to get up and down and he is not match fit yet
The results and the lack of width from AVBs teams without him has shown up how much we missed him
Love him or hate him him offers genuine width and attacking efforts from full back on our weakest side and he covers a **** load of ground!!!!
Yep there are better out there but not as many that work as hard as he does to get up and down and he is not match fit yet
The results and the lack of width from AVBs teams without him has shown up how much we missed him
Cochise
Steve Carr
(In response to Diego's post)
So far as our shape went we actually looked like this at times when Rose had the ball:
Soldado------------Ade--------------------
------------------------Lamela------------
----------Sig------------------------------
----------------Eriksen----------Walker----
Rose-----------Bentaleb-------------------
The same went for when Walker had the ball, with Ade becoming the wide outlet and Soldado coming central. This was what worked so well, especially with Ade as he was given a chance to run at an isolated Lovren due to their left back (Fox I think) tracking infield with Lamela. We stretched their back line all over the place and made it difficult for them to keep a set shape. It also meant that we were able to keep Lamela and Siggy closer to the strikers and part of the reason we were able to get numbers in the box. We effectively played with our strikers as wingers, with the onus on the advanced midfielders to become the extra man in the middle. I do think this left us narrow at times when play broke down and against a better counter attacking team we would have been found out but given this was the first game with this formation and only with 3-4 days practice under the players belts, it is encouraging.
At the end of the day, the formation isn't such a big deal. It's a way of getting the right personel into the right areas to best use their abilities. Tim is still exploring this but in one week he's already seen the need to get Sig and Lamela into more central areas where their skillsets are best used. We all know Siggy has goals in him and Lamela has always looked best when threading a pass through for the strikers. If we can get them relaxed in these positions then we will likely see more goals.
On a short note with regards to Redknapps style, VdV had a very free role and drifted all over the place, sometimes coming deep to play alongside modric to create an extra option and spark an attack. We were a very counter attacking team though with Bale and Lennon keeping fullbacks pinned right back, however we did find it difficult to break down the "park the bus sides". We did get away with it a lot because of individual moments of magic from Bale, Modric and VdV.
I said somewhere else about Hoddle's 352 not using our squad properly as he opted for a more pace and power look than one reliant on craft and vision. Playing with 3 centre backs, two fullbacks and a middle three of Townsend, Paulinho and Sandro is devoid of thinkers. The transitional idea comes from playing players in unorthodox positions if you will. Bayern do it in a way with Javi Martinez playing as a quarter back between Dante and Boateng who push wide whilst Lahm more often than not acts as a screen in front of the three. Bayern work it well because Kroos is used instead of a second striker giving them another option in the middle. For our squad I think you would have to play Capoue or Sandro as the quarter back, with a mobile defensive type ahead of them which in my opinion would have to be Dembele or Bentaleb (Paulinho hasn't done enough to convince me he would thrive here). If we stay with two strikers, then the other two players must be players of the Eriksen/Lamela/etc category with Paulinho only getting in if we decide to drop Soldado.
So far as our shape went we actually looked like this at times when Rose had the ball:
Soldado------------Ade--------------------
------------------------Lamela------------
----------Sig------------------------------
----------------Eriksen----------Walker----
Rose-----------Bentaleb-------------------
The same went for when Walker had the ball, with Ade becoming the wide outlet and Soldado coming central. This was what worked so well, especially with Ade as he was given a chance to run at an isolated Lovren due to their left back (Fox I think) tracking infield with Lamela. We stretched their back line all over the place and made it difficult for them to keep a set shape. It also meant that we were able to keep Lamela and Siggy closer to the strikers and part of the reason we were able to get numbers in the box. We effectively played with our strikers as wingers, with the onus on the advanced midfielders to become the extra man in the middle. I do think this left us narrow at times when play broke down and against a better counter attacking team we would have been found out but given this was the first game with this formation and only with 3-4 days practice under the players belts, it is encouraging.
At the end of the day, the formation isn't such a big deal. It's a way of getting the right personel into the right areas to best use their abilities. Tim is still exploring this but in one week he's already seen the need to get Sig and Lamela into more central areas where their skillsets are best used. We all know Siggy has goals in him and Lamela has always looked best when threading a pass through for the strikers. If we can get them relaxed in these positions then we will likely see more goals.
On a short note with regards to Redknapps style, VdV had a very free role and drifted all over the place, sometimes coming deep to play alongside modric to create an extra option and spark an attack. We were a very counter attacking team though with Bale and Lennon keeping fullbacks pinned right back, however we did find it difficult to break down the "park the bus sides". We did get away with it a lot because of individual moments of magic from Bale, Modric and VdV.
I said somewhere else about Hoddle's 352 not using our squad properly as he opted for a more pace and power look than one reliant on craft and vision. Playing with 3 centre backs, two fullbacks and a middle three of Townsend, Paulinho and Sandro is devoid of thinkers. The transitional idea comes from playing players in unorthodox positions if you will. Bayern do it in a way with Javi Martinez playing as a quarter back between Dante and Boateng who push wide whilst Lahm more often than not acts as a screen in front of the three. Bayern work it well because Kroos is used instead of a second striker giving them another option in the middle. For our squad I think you would have to play Capoue or Sandro as the quarter back, with a mobile defensive type ahead of them which in my opinion would have to be Dembele or Bentaleb (Paulinho hasn't done enough to convince me he would thrive here). If we stay with two strikers, then the other two players must be players of the Eriksen/Lamela/etc category with Paulinho only getting in if we decide to drop Soldado.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Leonhardson definitely played narrow in that 442, he never attacked out wide because that was Stevie Carr's area to bomb in to, we were basically 3 cm's spread out the width of the 18 yard box and ginola wide left on the half way line, with 2 strikers.
I mean, maybe you don't think it was a tactical decision or had the same impact because we're comparing leonhardson to David's and modric? Which is perfectly understandable.
