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Tactics Thread

metalgear said:
anyone who's watched standin tim's u21's know what his favourite formation/tactics are?
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I mentioned this in the Under 21's forum but the all the other age groups have been playing 4-3-3. I dont know if this was because it was what AVB wanted them to play so we could have system running through the club. But it makes it strange that the first thing Sherwood did was go to a flat 4-4-2. When he played that against West Ham I put it down to him having a lack of time to set up the team and wanted the side to play a bit more open and push for goals. Then he played it again against Southampton and I though we would get over run and it was a very hit and miss performance for me. And slightly worrying even though we did look more likely to score most of our chances came after we got in front and before that we had only had 2 shots.
 
Sandman said:
I mentioned this in the Under 21's forum but the all the other age groups have been playing 4-3-3. I dont know if this was because it was what AVB wanted them to play so we could have system running through the club. But it makes it strange that the first thing Sherwood did was go to a flat 4-4-2. When he played that against West Ham I put it down to him having a lack of time to set up the team and wanted the side to play a bit more open and push for goals. Then he played it again against Southampton and I though we would get over run and it was a very hit and miss performance for me. And slightly worrying even though we did look more likely to score most of our chances came after we got in front and before that we had only had 2 shots.
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That was always going to happen though. The players have been playing a certain way for over a year and a bit - so they were always going to be ring rusty. It wasnt a perfect performance at all, but I think the players got used to the formation as the game went on. Tim tweaked it a bit after 20 mins which definitely improved thins as we got a bit hammered for the first 15 or so mins.
 
DHSF said:
That was always going to happen though. The players have been playing a certain way for over a year and a bit - so they were always going to be ring rusty. It wasnt a perfect performance at all, but I think the players got used to the formation as the game went on. Tim tweaked it a bit after 20 mins which definitely improved thins as we got a bit hammered for the first 15 or so mins.
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thats a fair point and also he has not had much time to implement his tactics. I just wonder why he has been working with a 4-3-3 in the development team but goes for a 4-4-2 as soon as he runs the first team? surely the players we have are more ready to move into that formation than back to a basic 4-4-2 that is squeezed into a diamond to stop getting over run?

I suppose i cannot get over the fact that I think that 4-4-2 is very basic and that I was hoping for more progression through our setup and that the implementation of 4-4-2 throughout the club would mean that we would have a club system and not a manager based system. This causes recylceing of players every time we get a new manager. When we have to work more like the Swansea model in that you get in a manger to take on what you have and not make wholesale changes that mean getting more players in and selling players.
 
Sandman said:
thats a fair point and also he has not had much time to implement his tactics. I just wonder why he has been working with a 4-3-3 in the development team but goes for a 4-4-2 as soon as he runs the first team? surely the players we have are more ready to move into that formation than back to a basic 4-4-2 that is squeezed into a diamond to stop getting over run?

I suppose i cannot get over the fact that I think that 4-4-2 is very basic and that I was hoping for more progression through our setup and that the implementation of 4-4-2 throughout the club would mean that we would have a club system and not a manager based system. This causes recylceing of players every time we get a new manager. When we have to work more like the Swansea model in that you get in a manger to take on what you have and not make wholesale changes that mean getting more players in and selling players.
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That I dont know - I never saw the youth etc. I can only imagine that AVB wanted the football club at all levels to play in his own formation and tactics - which certainly makes sense. We do need that for sure.
 
I like the squeezed 442, especially at home. I don't understand the snobbery around it, not every 442 means two down the line wingers, two #9 goal hangers and an open midfield. 4231 is the smart fan certified formation but personally I don't like it, especially when the "2" can't move the ball well enough. Chelsea have an elite "3", about as good as you can get but I'm not sure it actually works all that well for the striker, it all's very "samey" and has to be precise, sometimes I wonder whether they could do with just oh I don't know, fizzing the ball into areas from wide or sticking another up top to work off. Their most fluid performance of the season came when they binned off the 4231 and just stuck Ba up top with Torres, bang, 0-1 turned into 3-1 in no time. Basically, I think fans are becoming as tactically inflexible as some managers.
 
Think you hit the tickle my balls with a feather though Rossi, the formation depends on the players and their jobs. 442 gets a thumbs down by most because it's viewed us an unflexible system which leaves the midfield outnumbered, but if the strikers work in the right areas you can outnumber the other team in other areas of the field. 433 is thought highly of because the best teams in the world play it at the moment and I think it does offer a team the ability to adapt more than a 442, but only if you have the right players. AVBs 4231 could've worked if we had a ball player in the "2" and the players ahead rotated properly, unfortunately though we were completely wooden with no movement.
 
africanspurs said:
http://this11.com/topics/add/abF24xLacO

yeah, no idea how to paste a picture in here but that would be my team with eriksen ghosting inwards

i feel like lamela will have a new lease of life with a new coach, almost like starting from scratch ....if not then play defoe right next to solly

lamela wouldnt be playing in the hole though, but more drifting across the entire back line still operating as a wing forward.

edit:- also dont know how to draw arrows on that thing

abF24xLacO.jpg
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i was right before about my prefered choice .....think this is the team i would like , but the slight tweak is adebayor for soldado
 
Anybody else think Ade could play the same role Cavani has this season in PSG's 4-3-3? Think it could be a possibility for the future manager...

and I love to talk tactics as much as the next guy, but the biggest difference for me has been whenever we get into attacking positions and the ball is sent in, we've now got 3/4/5 players waiting in the box for something to fall to them. With AVB we'd be lucky to have 1. It's refreshing
 
VolSpur said:
Anybody else think Ade could play the same role Cavani has this season in PSG's 4-3-3? Think it could be a possibility for the future manager...

and I love to talk tactics as much as the next guy, but the biggest difference for me has been whenever we get into attacking positions and the ball is sent in, we've now got 3/4/5 players waiting in the box for something to fall to them. With AVB we'd be lucky to have 1. It's refreshing
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this

it was the same initially with harry

i never understood why that was. playing wide wingers and having just crouch in there ? with VDV trailing
 
VolSpur said:
Anybody else think Ade could play the same role Cavani has this season in PSG's 4-3-3? Think it could be a possibility for the future manager...

and I love to talk tactics as much as the next guy, but the biggest difference for me has been whenever we get into attacking positions and the ball is sent in, we've now got 3/4/5 players waiting in the box for something to fall to them. With AVB we'd be lucky to have 1. It's refreshing
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Where has Cavani been playing?
 
I wud always play 433, I think we have the players to play it.
Ade

Chadli Lennon

Dembele Eriksen/siggy

Capoue

Based on players available now.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Where has Cavani been playing?
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Yiddo said:
Out on the right in the games i have seen.
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Yeah he's been playing wide right in a 4-3-3 with Ibra in the middle. They've been mauling their opponents all season. The beauty of their 4-3-3 is it's slight similarity to our recent 4-4-2 in which the front men are encouraged to drop back and link up play (usually Ibra for PSG). It's got a real fluidity to it.

The only difference is Cavani playing wide right against the oppositions left back creates quite a few problems. He's got more pace and power than most LB's know what to do with and his runs are coming from an abnormal area for a striker so most CB/LB pairings can't cope.
 
Ade has been so good in pulling players out of position these last few games, it's made a fair amount of space. Eriksen has been great in exploiting it and so has Lennon and Soldado, but it's the freedom given to the players to create which is what football is about. So far the wonky is allowing that, but I did think we lacked that physical strength in the last 30 minutes after Ade went off.
 
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Don't want to create a new thread, so just bumping this one.

Really want to discuss the feasibility of this two inverted wingers setup, with the FBs providing ALL of the width, with a single striker up top. It's probably the only philosophy/style that Poch has stuck with all season.

So couple of questions

- Who else really plays this way, including no DM?
- Does anyone actually see this as a tactic that has some great benefit?

My problem is, I have seen us play well on occasion, just not sure that is a result of system, or in spite of, the way I see it

- Our inverted winger squeeze in and overcrowd the midfield, which just kills the game, no room for quick passes, no ability to pull the opposition out of formation
- The opposition can actually squeeze in and sit back and make it even more difficult for us (Park the bus improved)
- The FB's become exposed as the two "wingers" actually almost never are wide, so provide very little defensively
- The system requires our FBs to almost always overcommit, as they become almost the only way to get a ball to front line
- That in turn leaves our back line dreadfully exposed to long diagonal balls, over the top to a runner, almost always leaving 1:1, 2:2 situations
- Add in no actual DM to provide shield and/or cover the FB space, we are just brick defensively, based on system flaws

Really don't believe Walker/Vert/Fazio/Rose is the 15th worst defense quality wise in the PL, really the system is failing, so my question is

- Can the system be made to work defensively?
- Is it creating enough chances offensively to justify the risk/open style?
 
I think it is a system that works reasonably well against teams who play their own possession based game where they like to build from the back (as the 4-2-3-1 inverted winger system creates a good platform from which to press). However our formation seems to be very easily countered by teams who get it forward quickly and look to play off the knock downs. Or by teams who look for the diagonal ball into the acres of space behind our fullbacks, which causes one of our central defenders to be pulled out of position to cover that space and the opposition then exploit that with a midfield runner and their wide forward from the other side of the pitch getting into the box.
 
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